Mary

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

I guess me may have to agree to disagree on this point. I respect your belief, but I am having a very difficult time understanding it particulary your belief that not only was Mary perfect, but that it was necessary she be perfect. I hope I did not come off as overly aggressive on this point, it is something I am trying to work on, balancing my passion with respect.

Vincent, you do better than most on these board with that respect.

 

[mercygate]

Vincent1560:

. . . I am having a very difficult time understanding it particulary your belief that not only was Mary perfect, but that it was necessary she be perfect. . . . God Bless

I know I should do some homework and provide a link here (a quick check of the Catechism did not identify a source) but it is my recollection that the Immaculate Conception is not considered “necessary” to the Incarnation but rather it is considered “fitting.”

 

[BibleReader]

Vincent1560:

I completley agree that Christ was fully God and fully Man. That is the basis of my faith in the significance of his death and resurrection. I hope I didn’t lead anyone to conclude I thought otherwise. My argument was that he protected us from experiencing the full force of his divine holiness which would be deadly, and that what shielded us from this consequence was the fact that he became fully man without ceasing to be fully God. By becoming fully man he enabled himself to interact with his creations in a way that would not be harmful to them. And I am not basing this on merely Mary’s “non-destrucvtion” but the non-destruction of every human Christ interacted with while on Earth. My point was that if all of the sinful people Christ interacted with while on Earth, were able to do so without dieing in his perfect presence, it doesn’t follow that Mary needed any special protection such as the inherent perfection Catholics atribute to her.

Well, my position is that when you are looking at the Immaculate Conception, you are staring in the face the concept that Mary’s flesh DID need special protection, because of the intimacy of the contact.

Up above, by the way, I meant to write, " I see no good reason to ***not *** simply say, ‘Hey! She was immaculately conceived! That’s protection enough against Moses’ problem!’"

 

[Mickey]

Vincent1560:

19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?"
Here Paul is asserting that all of our bodies are temples in which God dwells. None of us are inherently perfect, yet we are all capable of being temples of God.

This verse does not state that we are going to literally give birth to “God the son”. There is only one God-bearer (Theotokos).
That verse is stating that we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.

Vincent1560:

. I hope I did not come off as overly aggressive on this point, it is something I am trying to work on, balancing my passion with respect.

Absolutely not Vincent! You are always polite and respectful. Everyone appreciates that. May God Bless you on your journey.

Glory To Jesus Christ!

 

[Vincent1560]

Quick question, I may be way off and have gotten the wrong impression from various posts, but do Catholics believe Mary herself was immaculately conceived?

 

[Mickey]

Vincent1560:

Quick question, I may be way off and have gotten the wrong impression from various posts, but do Catholics believe Mary herself was immaculately conceived?

From the CCC:

The Immaculate Conception

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”.133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137

---

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

 

[Vincent1560]

Mickey:

From the CCC:

The Immaculate Conception

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”.133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137

---

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

At the risk of sounding dense, does that mean yes, no or maybe?

 

[mercygate]

Vincent1560:

Quick question, I may be way off and have gotten the wrong impression from various posts, but do Catholics believe Mary herself was immaculately conceived?

Ah. I thought I had followed this thread closely but maybe I missed something. ???

The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception does, indeed, refer to Mary’s conception in the womb of *her *mother. She is conceived without sin from “the first moment of her conception” – but she is conceived in the normal way that human beings are conceived: through a natural human act of intercourse between her parents. Her freedom from Original Sin is an exceptional divine intervention.

When Catholics (or Protestants) speak of Jesus’ conception, that is referred to as the Virgin Conception, the Virgin Birth. Jesus is conceived without a natural human act of intercourse.

BTW, all of the Reformers believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary (before, during and after the birth of Jesus), and most of them affirmed the Immaculate Conception as well. These doctrines were “deleted” later in history, largely as a result of the Enlightenment (which we tend to treat with some skepticism).

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

At the risk of sounding dense, does that mean yes, no or maybe?

Yes, it is the teaching of the Catholic Church that Mary was indeed immaculately conceived.

 

[Mickey]

Vincent1560:

At the risk of sounding dense, does that mean yes, no or maybe?

"Catholic Answers" puts it quite well:

**It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit,” in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what “immaculate” means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.
**

 

[Vincent1560]

mercygate:

The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception does, indeed, refer to Mary’s conception in the womb of her mother. She is conceived without sin from “the first moment of her conception” – but she is conceived in the normal way that human beings are conceived: through a natural human act of intercourse between her parents. Her freedom from Original Sin is an exceptional divine intervention.

When Catholics (or Protestants) speak of Jesus’ conception, that is referred to as the Virgin Conception, the Virgin Birth. Jesus is conceived without a natural human act of intercourse.

Thankyou this clears it up. I think the confusion is that in my church as well as most Protestant denominations (I may have misunderstood them), immaculate conception and virgin birth are treated as practical synonymns.

 

[Mickey]

Vincent1560:

Thankyou this clears it up. I think the confusion is that in my church as well as most Protestant denominations (I may have misunderstood them), immaculate conception and virgin birth are treated as practical synonymns.

Don’t feel bad. There are some misinformed/unlearned Catholics who still do not know this doctrine!

 

[Bearit]

In a effort to do something about my drinking someone asked if I believed in Mary, I said I did and I do. This man said to me pray the rosary when you want to drink or even if you feel your getting angry about anything and ask Mary to ask Jesus to help you. I have not taken a drink in 13 years.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Bearit:

In a effort to do something about my drinking someone asked if I believed in Mary, I said I did and I do. This man said to me pray the rosary when you want to drink or even if you feel your getting angry about anything and ask Mary to ask Jesus to help you. I have not taken a drink in 13 years.

Ok, one thing I don’t understand is why ask Mary to ask Jesus instead of going right to the source Himself? Yes, Yes, we do ask for others to pray for us here on earth but I think that is just so we know we are not alone in our struggles. Why would you need Mary’s intercession?

 

[Mickey]

Singinbeauty:

Ok, one thing I don’t understand is why ask Mary to ask Jesus instead of going right to the source Himself? Yes, Yes, we do ask for others to pray for us here on earth but I think that is just so we know we are not alone in our struggles. Why would you need Mary’s intercession?

So that we know we are not alone in our struggles! I’m very happy when a friend or family member prays for me, but I’m even happier when a great saint such as the Mother of God prays for me.

 

[Shiann]

One thing that hasn’t been discussed here is the beautiful way that Jesus and Mary work together to completely undo the Fall of Man through Adam and Eve.

Eve was fully human and completely full of Sanctifying Grace. She was imbued with the perfect knowledge of the Will of God, and yet she sought her own will through the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. She encouraged a fully perfect Adam to do the same.

Mary was fully human and full of Sanctifying Grace. She was imbued with the perfect knowledge of the Will of God and regardless of her will OBEYED. She nurtured and provided for Jesus so He could do the same. She was the perfect mother for our perfect Christ.

Though only Christ purchased our Salvation through His Sacrifice- Mary needed to freely choose to participate- which thankfully she did. In order for God to undo the damage in the relationship between God and Man, Mary could not have been less than Eve- that is, she *needed *to be full of Sanctifying Grace like Eve.

 

[On_my_way]

Singinbeauty:

Ok, one thing I don’t understand is why ask Mary to ask Jesus instead of going right to the source Himself? Yes, Yes, we do ask for others to pray for us here on earth but I think that is just so we know we are not alone in our struggles. Why would you need Mary’s intercession?

If we ask Mary to talk to her Son, do you think He will not listen to his mother? By the way, when your mom asks you to do something for her or anyone do you do it? Do you listen to your mom?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Singinbeauty:

Ok, one thing I don’t understand is why ask Mary to ask Jesus instead of going right to the source Himself? Yes, Yes, we do ask for others to pray for us here on earth but I think that is just so we know we are not alone in our struggles. Why would you need Mary’s intercession?

It’s not an either/or proposition for Catholics. It is praying to Jesus and asking Mary to pray to Jesus with us and for us. You are creating a false dichotomy by suggesting that Mary is a barrier between Christ and Catholics. Mary is an additional conduit for petitioning Jesus. She is a prayer “amplifier” so to speak. Catholics don’t “have” to ask Mary to pray to Jesus, we want to include her in our prayers just as we would want our mother to be present at any family gathering.