Mary

[Genesis315]

Singinbeauty:

But Mary is not the mother of God HIMSELF. She is the mother of Him incarnate.

Ahhh, the great Nestorian heresy rears its head again. Why Protestants decide to always resurrect that one is beyond me.

Jesus is God HIMSELF. You cannot separate His divinity and humanity. Mary is His mother. He is God. She is the mother of God.

Isn’t it cool how God had the very unique experience of creating His own mother? I bet Jesus, who is God, and through whom all creation comes, and who never sinned, would honor His mother. Maybe He would honor her by preserving her from original sin.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Genesis315:

Why do you believe she can’t hear you?

How do you think the ancients got the prayers of the saints in Rev. 5:8 (ancients would be what we call canonized Saints and saints here refers to all us Christians)?

Do you believe the Church is the mystical Body of Christ? Do you believe the Body of Christ is torn in half, one part in Heaven, one part on Earth, totaly unconnected?

I am assuming you are referring to this verse…

Revelation 8:4
The smoke of the incense, mixed with the prayers of the saints, ascended up to God from the altar where the angel had poured them out.

I believe that the saints mentioned here and their prayers are OUR prayers. We are the saints that this talks about.

As for the disconnection I believe that we (all christians PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE) will be in the ground until God calls us home in the end times. The FIRST resurrection spoken of in Revelation. Even though it won’t feel like we have been in the ground for that long because to US it will feel instantaneous.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Genesis315:

Isn’t it cool how God had the very unique experience of creating His own mother? I bet Jesus, who is God, and through whom all creation comes, and who never sinned, would honor His mother. Maybe He would honor her by preserving her from original sin.

It is very “cool” (understatement of the year)…and I bet He did just that.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Ahhh, the great Nestorian heresy rears its head again. Why Protestants decide to always resurrect that one is beyond me.

You know, this offends me greatly. I have not called your thoughts or beliefs heretical why do you have to do that to mine? With comments like this I sooooooo want to become catholic!

 

[MonicaC]

Singinbeauty:

I am assuming you are referring to this verse…

Revelation 8:4
The smoke of the incense, mixed with the prayers of the saints, ascended up to God from the altar where the angel had poured them out.

I believe that the saints mentioned here and their prayers are OUR prayers. We are the saints that this talks about.

As for the disconnection I believe that we (all christians PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE) will be in the ground until God calls us home in the end times. The FIRST resurrection spoken of in Revelation. Even though it won’t feel like we have been in the ground for that long because to US it will feel instantaneous.

But your theroy does not add up when you keep thinking that everyone is asleep.

Monica

 

[E.E.N.S]

Genesis315:

Ahhh, the great Nestorian heresy rears its head again. Why Protestants decide to always resurrect that one is beyond me.

Who knows? But here are a couple of quotes from the early Church Fathers (though there are a lot more than I am currently providing.)

“If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead.” *Gregory of Nazianzus, To Cledonius, 101 (A.D. 382). *

“To the question: ‘Is Mary the bearer of Man, or the bearer of God?’ we must answer: ‘Of Both.’” *Theodore of Mopsuestia, The Incarnation, 15 (ante A.D. 428). *

“And so you say, O heretic, whoever you may be, who deny that God was born of the Virgin, that Mary the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ ought not to be called Theotocos, i.e., Mother of God, but Christotocos, i.e., only the Mother of Christ, not of God. For no one, you say, brings forth what is anterior in time. And of this utterly foolish argument whereby you think that the birth of God can be understood by carnal minds, and fancy that the mystery of His Majesty can be accounted for by human reasoning, we will, if God permits, say something later on. In the meanwhile we will now prove by Divine testimonies that Christ is God, and that Mary is the Mother of God.” *John Cassian, The Incarnation of Christ, II:2 (A.D. 430). *

“But since the Holy Virgin brought forth after the flesh God personally united to the flesh, for this reason we say of her that she is Theotokos, not as though the nature of the Word had its beginning of being from the flesh, for he was in the beginning, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God…but, as we said before, because having personally united man’s nature to himself…” Cyril of Alexandria, To Nestorius, Epistle 17:11 (A.D. 430). “If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Theotokos), inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [as it is written, ‘The Word was made flesh’: let him be anathema.” *Council of Ephesus, Anathemas Against Nestorius, I (A.D. 430).

 

[Genesis315]

Singinbeauty:

I am assuming you are referring to this verse…

Revelation 8:4
The smoke of the incense, mixed with the prayers of the saints, ascended up to God from the altar where the angel had poured them out.

I believe that the saints mentioned here and their prayers are OUR prayers. We are the saints that this talks about.

Nope that’s not what I’m talking about. Rev 5:8. Yes, we are the saints. We are not the “ancients.”

As for the disconnection I believe that we (all christians PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE) will be in the ground until God calls us home in the end times. The FIRST resurrection spoken of in Revelation. Even though it won’t feel like we have been in the ground for that long because to US it will feel instantaneous./

What about Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration? They were up there? What’s happening in Luke 16:22-25?

 

[Singinbeauty]

MonicaC:

But your theroy does not add up when you keep thinking that everyone is asleep.

Monica

Why doesn’t it add up? The prayers I am talking about are our prayers we utter on this earth. All christians, all prayers.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Singinbeauty:

You know, this offends me greatly. I have not called your thoughts or beliefs heretical why do you have to do that to mine?

It is a fact, no ones’ intent is to insult you (I hope), but that was a commonly known heresy from a long time ago.

Singinbeauty:

With comments like this I sooooooo want to become catholic!

Then come, join us in the One True Church that Christ Himself founded - we’d love to have you!

 

[Genesis315]

Singinbeauty:

You know, this offends me greatly. I have not called your thoughts or beliefs heretical why do you have to do that to mine? With comments like this I sooooooo want to become catholic!

SOrry, didn’t mean to offend. But this is one of the “Great Heresies.” (right up there with Arianism, which said Christ was not God, and Docetism, which said he was not man) Few Protestants actually believe it but they like to bring it up when the Mother of God thing comes up. This title (Mother of God) was created for the sole purpose of making sure no one got confused about this.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Singinbeauty:

But Mary is not the mother of God HIMSELF. She is the mother of Him incarnate. He existed WAY before she was a gleam in her great-10x grandmother’s eyes. She did not give birth to HIM (the Father, the God of the Old testiment) And again, married = consumation. You had to consumate in order to be married back then. I have done research on this.

So do you deny the validity of the hypostatic union and the doctrine of the Trinity? Jesus Christ was both fully man and fully God? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God in three persons. Because the Church teaches this, one must conclude that Mary gave birth to the Lord Jesus, the Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity. As such, she is the Mother of God.

 

[mercygate]

Genesis315:

Ahhh, the great Nestorian heresy rears its head again. Why Protestants decide to always resurrect that one is beyond me.

Jesus is God HIMSELF. You cannot separate His divinity and humanity. Mary is His mother. He is God. She is the mother of God.

Isn’t it cool how God had the very unique experience of creating His own mother? I bet Jesus, who is God, and through whom all creation comes, and who never sinned, would honor His mother. Maybe He would honor her by preserving her from original sin.

Heck, even Protestants understand that Mary is the Mother of God and give her the title. No argument there between us – except from disconnected fundamentalist types who draw an odd picture of Mary supposedly being the mother of divinity if she has that title. Nobody who studies this doctrine quibbles with it.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Luke 16:22-25 (New Living Translation)

22Finally, the beggar died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham.[a] The rich man also died and was buried, 23and his soul went to the place of the dead.** There, in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham.

24"The rich man shouted, `Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames.'

25"But Abraham said to him, `Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish.

**

This is a parable. Meant to teach them of the separation and the consequences of our actions here on earth. This did not really happen. This story was set after the resurrection. This is the interpretation I have come to…

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Just like on your earlier thread here:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=865789#post865789 you implied that there is some natural dilemma between the Church’s teachings and a Catholic’s personal belief as if they cannot be one and the same. Why are you doing this?

Scott

 

[Singinbeauty]

Robert in SD:

So do you deny the validity of the hypostatic union and the doctrine of the Trinity? Jesus Christ was both fully man and fully God? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God in three persons. Because the Church teaches this, one must conclude that Mary gave birth to the Lord Jesus, the Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity. As such, she is the Mother of God.

The Trinity…

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

I have given my definition of the way I see the trinity on another thread but here we go on this one. I view the trinity like this… In any country there are many people who live there, right? So in America we are called Americans becuase we live here. But it doesn’t mean that I and my neighbor are the same person just because we live in the same country. The trinity is the same. They are three distinct entities but are under the title ‘Trinity’ because they come from the same place. I don’t know how much sense this makes. So God the Father, Jesus HIS SON, and the Holy Spirit are related but not the same person.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello Singinbeauty;

You wrote:

As for the disconnection I believe that we (all christians PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE) will be in the ground until God calls us home in the end times. The FIRST resurrection spoken of in Revelation. Even though it won’t feel like we have been in the ground for that long because to US it will feel instantaneous.

Then what is the bosom of Abraham?

[22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. (Lk 16:22)

And what is Paradise?

[43] And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Lk 22:43)

And how could these passages be correct if all the dead are “sleeping” until the “rapture?”

 

[Singinbeauty]

Scott Waddell:

Just like on your earlier thread here:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=865789#post865789 you implied that there is some natural dilemma between the Church’s teachings and a Catholic’s personal belief as if they cannot be one and the same. Why are you doing this?

Scott

Because that is what I see… at least at this point. That is why I am here… I keep saying this but obviously you aren’t seeing that. YOU may believe that the catholic church we have today is the same church that Jesus set forth way back when but I don’t. That is why I am doing this.

 

[yochumjy]

Singinbeauty:

This is my view on Mary…

Mary was a young girl growing up in Nazareth. She was engaged to a man named Joseph and was looking forward to a life of children and marriage.

No offense, but based on what do you believe this? Does Mary’s words in the bible support this? Back then there were other customs, such as temple virgins who married to give them a place to go during their “impure” monthly cycle. The marriage was not the typical have children marriage but was a convenient way to work around the “impure” time. Therefore, Mary would have never expected to have children. This is bolstered by her words in Luke 1:34

But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”

Mary is either being portrayed as dense (she is about to be married, right?) or she is not expecting any relations with any man, including her husband to be.

Singinbeauty:

Back then engagement and the wedding was quite different than it is today…I don’t remember how long the couple would stay in that room but when they emerged they would join the party and have a feast and dancing.

I don’t have the knowledge that you do about this particular set of customs, but it doesn’t play a part here as I understand it, see above. Also see the following link

Mary Ever-Virgin

Singinbeauty:

…Then one night Gabriel comes to her and tells her to forget about jewish custom that God had chosen HER to bear the child who will save the world. Wow. What a tremendous shock. I wonder if Mary thought she was halucinating (and I think she did because in Luke it talks of her being ‘confused and disturbed’) I know I would have done the head shake and rubbing of eyes if an angel stood before me telling me that God had chosen me to do such a wonderful thing! But then, even though it made no sense to her how she was to become pregnant being a virgin, and knowing that by custom a woman being pregnant without being married would be stoned she laid that down and said that she will do whatever God required of her.

Actually Mary is said to be disturbed AFTER the greeting, as if the greeting disturbed her. Hail, Full of Grace, is (I assume ) disturbing to a humble person. This is an exaulted greeting, if one is full of grace then there isn’t anything left. And why would it make no sense that she could become pregnant, she was about to be married. You are assuming that the previous exchange indicated it would happen immediately, but that isn’t translated that way (or is translated in a less that accurate way).

Singinbeauty:

…
The bible says that Joseph did not KNOW Mary until she gave birth to Jesus. Which to me and MANY others means that she and Joseph did not consumate the union until Jesus was born. Matthew 1:24-26 says…

24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord commanded. He brought Mary home to be his wife, 25but she remained a virgin until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

True, but just because you see the word “until” in a sentance, doesn’t mean that it follows the action will always be taken, some say that until can mean through eternity, due to the scripture:

In His days shall shine forth righteousness and an abundance of peace, until the moon be taken away (Ps. 71:7)

If this passage is about Christ, as we assume, then He will always shine.

Singinbeauty:

I also wonder if, when she and Joseph realized that Jesus was missing, did she wonder what kind of trouble she was going to be in when God found out she had LOST the messiah? I would think that I would be frantic! I lost God’s SON… Oh Geez…

Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind also!

 

[Singinbeauty]

[43] And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Lk 22:43)

And how could these passages be correct if all the dead are “sleeping” until the “rapture?”

Because to us, it will seem like it is THAT day that we die. It will seem instantaneous.

 

[Church_Militant]

Singinbeauty:

Well, since I don’t believe that Mary can hear me I don’t think it would be much of a point to try to talk to her now…

My dear Singinbeauty!
What do you suppose that great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12:1 is doing if the Word of God says that they are witnesses to our race? Do you suppose that they are unaware & unable to see and hear what we endure? Especially something as momentous as the race and battle for the faith of a fellow soul in Christ! Can you just imagine this lot all sitting there stoically observing all this and not cheering us on and raising their holy voices in prayer to God on our behalf?

I sure can’t…