Mary's Assumption

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I was watching a video that Steve Ray produced about a quick run through Jerusalem and he showed the church where the BVM died and was assumed into Heaven. What got me thinking is this, why did the BVM needed to die in order to be assumed? Elijah didn’t die when he was taken up in the chariot. Also, I know that based on Tradition, it is said that the BVM didnt suffer the pangs of child birth because she was immaculately conceived and therefore was not subject to the effects of sin, but, if this is part of the Tradition, why did she have to die in order to be assumed into Heaven?
 
I was watching a video that Steve Ray produced about a quick run through Jerusalem and he showed the church where the BVM died and was assumed into Heaven. What got me thinking is this, why did the BVM needed to die in order to be assumed? Elijah didn’t die when he was taken up in the chariot. Also, I know that based on Tradition, it is said that the BVM didnt suffer the pangs of child birth because she was immaculately conceived and therefore was not subject to the effects of sin, but, if this is part of the Tradition, why did she have to die in order to be assumed into Heaven?
Greetings Rivera01,

There is a Scripture, and I hope that someone who knows where this is in Scripture will respond to this thread,

that it has been appointed unto all men that they are to die once…

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
I was watching a video that Steve Ray produced about a quick run through Jerusalem and he showed the church where the BVM died and was assumed into Heaven. What got me thinking is this, why did the BVM needed to die in order to be assumed? Elijah didn’t die when he was taken up in the chariot. Also, I know that based on Tradition, it is said that the BVM didnt suffer the pangs of child birth because she was immaculately conceived and therefore was not subject to the effects of sin, but, if this is part of the Tradition, why did she have to die in order to be assumed into Heaven?
Mary needed to follow the path to salvation that Jesus laid. Death is not an end anymore, but a step towards eternal life.
 
I was watching a video that Steve Ray produced about a quick run through Jerusalem and he showed the church where the BVM died and was assumed into Heaven. What got me thinking is this, why did the BVM needed to die in order to be assumed? Elijah didn’t die when he was taken up in the chariot. Also, I know that based on Tradition, it is said that the BVM didnt suffer the pangs of child birth because she was immaculately conceived and therefore was not subject to the effects of sin, but, if this is part of the Tradition, why did she have to die in order to be assumed into Heaven?
The Church does NOT teach that Mary died before being assumed. Catholics are free to believe she died first or did not die first.
 
The Church does NOT teach that Mary died before being assumed. Catholics are free to believe she died first or did not die first.
This falls under Common Teaching [Sententia Communis. This means Common Teaching is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of free opinions, but which is accepted by thelogians generally.

I quote from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, which the above definition is also taken from. [Emphasis Mine]
  1. Mary’s Death - Mary suffered a temporal death [Sententia Communis]
Even if reliable historical reports as to the place (Ephesus, Jersualem), the time and the circumstances of Mary’s death are lacking, still the fact of her death is ALMOST GENERALLY ACCEPTED BY THE FATHERS AND THEOLOGIANS, and is EXPRESSLY AFFIRMED IN THE LITURGY OF THE CHURCH. The Sacramentarium Gregorianum, which Pope Hadrian I trasmitted to Charles the Great, contains the prayer [which I omit here because it is in Latin.]

Origen, St. Ephrem, Severian of Gabla, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, mention the fact of her death incidentally. St. Epiphanius, who had already instituted researches into the close of Mary’s life says: “Nobody knows how she departed this world.” He leaves undecided whether she died a natural death, or whether (according to Luke 2, 35) she died by violence, or whether she (Revelation 12, 14) still lives on immortal in some place unknown to us. The unknown authro of a sermon which has come down to us under the name of the Presbyter Timotheus of Jerusalem is of the opinion that “the virgin is up to now immortal (that is did not die), as He who (in her) lived, translated her into the place of reception (that is, into the Heavenly Paradise.)”

For Mary, death in consequence of her freedom from orginal sin and from personal sin, was not a consequence of punishment of sin. HOWEVER IT SEEMS FITTING THAT MARY’S BODY, WHICH WAS BY NATURE MORTAL, SHOULD BE, IN CONFORMITY WITH THAT OF HER DIVINE SON, SUBJECT TO THE GENERAL LAW OF DEATH.

I by the grace of God, I stand with the Church Fathers and the theologians on this as they generally almost accept it.

They are not called Church Fathers for frivilous reasons and they were very brilliant and knew quite a great deal.

Oh by the way Thistle, thanks for posting what you did. I learned a lot about this doctrine in general. Caused me to do some research and my faith is richer because of it. God Bless You.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
Thank you all for the replies. I was thinking that Mary would have participated in Christ’s redemptive suffering, being His mother, even more so than any other saint in history.

I was curious because of I always thought that Mary was assumed with out dying, especially when I compared Elijah’s assumption with that of Mary.
 
It was not necessary that Mary die. She chose to out of the imitation of Jesus.
 
Greetings Rivera01,

There is a Scripture, and I hope that someone who knows where this is in Scripture will respond to this thread,

that it has been appointed unto all men that they are to die once…

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
[bibledrb]Hebrews 9:27[/bibledrb]
 
[bibledrb]Hebrews 9:27[/bibledrb]
And this is a good example of exactly the kind of problem there is with proof-texting…

the context of that Scripture has nothing to do with the context of our thread here.

In Hebrews 9, it is being demonstrated that, unlike the sacrifices of the Mosaic Law, which happen often, Christ’s sacrifice is to happen once and once only. Just like there’s no such thing as multiple deaths (and therefore, multiple “opportunities” for sacrifice, vis-a-vis Christ), there’s one death of Christ. Finishing the sentence started in verse 27, “So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; the second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.”
 
And this is a good example of exactly the kind of problem there is with proof-texting…

the context of that Scripture has nothing to do with the context of our thread here.

In Hebrews 9, it is being demonstrated that, unlike the sacrifices of the Mosaic Law, which happen often, Christ’s sacrifice is to happen once and once only. Just like there’s no such thing as multiple deaths (and therefore, multiple “opportunities” for sacrifice, vis-a-vis Christ), there’s one death of Christ. Finishing the sentence started in verse 27, “So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; the second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.”
Greetings Gerogias,

That is one acceptable intrepretation. However the other intepretation is also acceptable as well.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
I was watching a video that Steve Ray produced about a quick run through Jerusalem and he showed the church where the BVM died and was assumed into Heaven. What got me thinking is this, why did the BVM needed to die in order to be assumed??
it is not defined dogma that she did die, and I have seen this video several times and don’t think he said definitely that she died. There is a long tradition in the Eastern Church in fact that she fell asleep, the Dormition.
 
Thank you all for the replies. I was thinking that Mary would have participated in Christ’s redemptive suffering, being His mother, even more so than any other saint in history.

I was curious because of I always thought that Mary was assumed with out dying, especially when I compared Elijah’s assumption with that of Mary.
Perhaps this might shed some light on the question.

The document that pronounced the dogma of the Assumption is called Munificentissimus Deus. The specific paragraph containing the definition, remains open to whether or not Mary did or did not have a temporal death. It reads as follows*#44 …we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.*Emphasis mine. You see how the wording accommodates both understandings.

Now, that being said, if we read elsewhere in the document, it does suggest she did die. This is not part of the dogma, but reveals, as others in this thread said, that it is the Church’s common teaching that she did die. Here are examples of those other paragraphs indicating she did undergo temporal death:*#17 - In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: “Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”

#21 - It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death.Theologically speaking, it is fitting that Mary who shared most intimately with Christ’s passion, should also experience death as he did. The prophet Simeon said to Mary:Luke 2:34-35 …Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also**), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed."*You see how this language mirrors Christ being pierced in his side revealing his death when water and blood poured out. As the ultimate Christian, it would be consistent that Mary should suffer temporal death as did her Savior.

Regarding the issue of temporal death as a result of original sin, consider this. Death was a consequence of original sin, but that does not mean that if a human suffers death, that he did so because it was a consequence of original sin. See the difference? Let’s say the punishment for not eating vegetables in a family is to go to your room an hour early. And let’s say 3 of 4 siblings don’t eat their vegetables and are assigned this punishment. If the 4th sibling submits to join the others and goes to bed an hour early, he is not going to bed an hour early as the consequence for his disobedience. In other words, one could not conclude that just because the punishment for not eating vegetables was to go to bed an hour early that everyone who went to bed an hour early was guilty. In the same way, just because Jesus or Mary suffered temporal deaths, it doesn’t follow that they suffered temporal death because of association with original sin.

In the same way, if we take literally the passage in Revelation that Mary suffered birth pangs, it doesn’t follow that she suffered birth pangs as a result of original sin. Of course many theologians take the Revelation passage figuratively or tie it into Simeon’s prophecy that Mary cried out spiritually because of the suffering that her son’s incarnation would bring, but my point is, that we shouldn’t be concerned that Mary suffering temporal death or having birth pangs would contradict her Assumption or Immaculate Conception.
:o
 
Greetings Gerogias,

That is one acceptable intrepretation. However the other intepretation is also acceptable as well.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
Anathama,

Thanks for your reply.

You make an unattributed affirmation of bmullins’ use of Hebrews 9:27. Can you point out any exegesis from the Church Fathers applying Hebrews 9:27 to Mary’s Assumption, which might lead us to see it as “acceptable” interpretation, rather than a subjective eisegesis?

Thanks!
 
Anathama,

Thanks for your reply.

You make an unattributed affirmation of bmullins’ use of Hebrews 9:27. Can you point out any exegesis from the Church Fathers applying Hebrews 9:27 to Mary’s Assumption, which might lead us to see it as “acceptable” interpretation, rather than a subjective eisegesis?

Thanks!
What use of Hebrews 9:27 are you suggesting I used? Someone asked for the verse, I quoted it.
 
Anathama,

Thanks for your reply.

You make an unattributed affirmation of bmullins’ use of Hebrews 9:27. Can you point out any exegesis from the Church Fathers applying Hebrews 9:27 to Mary’s Assumption, which might lead us to see it as “acceptable” interpretation, rather than a subjective eisegesis?

Thanks!
Greetings Gorgias,

I will attempt to address this a future date. I’m a bit exhuasted right now and trying to get the rest of the forums caught up and so some school work.

For now, let it suffice that it would seem that you misunderstand why I am quoting that Scripture. I am not using it to prove something, I am using it in conjunction post #5.
For Mary, death in consequence of her freedom from orginal sin and from personal sin, was not a consequence of punishment of sin. HOWEVER IT SEEMS FITTING THAT MARY’S BODY, WHICH WAS BY NATURE MORTAL, SHOULD BE, IN CONFORMITY WITH THAT OF HER DIVINE SON, SUBJECT TO THE GENERAL LAW OF DEATH.
This verse is often used to refute reincarnation in the Church because it is clear that man dies one time and faces the judgement. Death is what all mortal man goes through regardless. This was what I was allluding to, but in light of the above quote. I hope this is making sense.

I apologize if you read the unedited post, I am a bit tired, but that gives me no excuse to be a bit snappish.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
🤷 OK. Anathema provided the eisegesis, you provided the citation. Fair enough?
I’m not sure eisegesis fits quite what he is saying. I don’t think he is trying to interpret that scripture to apply directly to Mary, but as a support for a theory about Mary instead.
 
I’m not sure eisegesis fits quite what he is saying. I don’t think he is trying to interpret that scripture to apply directly to Mary, but as a support for a theory about Mary instead.
Using a quote that, in context, speaks to Jesus living (and dying) only once, in order to demonstrate that there was only one sacrifice for our sins… and trying to make that quote say that Mary died…? And that doesn’t qualify for reading something into Scripture that isn’t there? Hmm… :hmmm:
 
The verse in context does indeed talk about Christ and it is used to support Christ only dying once for our sins, and not being re-sacrficed over and over. That doesn’t remove the nature of the verse that specifically that all men are appointed once to die. The verse itself gives a statement about the nature of men, and though it is used in support of Christ and the theology that is being presented, it is still points to all men as well. Otherwise it would read “Just as Christ was appointed once to die”. It doesn’t.
 
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