Mary's assumption

dvdjs · Aug 22, 2015

In light of claims about 2000 yr traditions and modern perspectives, I thought it would be good to offer this look at the earliest known commentary from the East:

Epiphanius (c. >310 - 403 AD)

St. Epiphanius of Salamis, in a digression typical of his Medicine Chest …:

"But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried. … Rather, Scripture is absolutely silent [on the end of Mary] because of the extraordinary nature of the prodigy, in order not to shock the minds of men.

"For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence. For it may be that somewhere we have found hints that it is impossible to discover the death of the holy, blessed one. On the one hand, you see, Simeon says of her, ‘And your own soul a sword shall pierce, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed’ (Luke 2:35). On the other hand, when the Apocalypse of John says, ‘And the dragon hastened against the woman who had brought forth the male child, and there were given to her an eagle’s wings, and she was carried off into the wilderness, that the dragon might not seize her’ (Rev 12:13-14), it may be that this is fulfilled in her.

“However, I do not assert this absolutely, and I do not say that she remained immortal; but neither do I maintain stoutly that she died. …”

Twelve chapters later Epiphanius returns briefly to the problem of Mary’s end:

“…either the holy Virgin died and was buried; then her falling asleep was with honor, her death chaste, her crown that of virginity. Or she was killed, as it is written: ‘And your own soul a sword shall pierce’; then her glory is among the martyrs and her holy body amid blessings, she through whom light rose over the world. Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no one knows…”

The testimony of Epiphanius is crucial for two reasons. Before Ephesus he alone deals expressly with the problem at issue; and he knows the Holy City and its traditions as few others of his time. It is the more regrettable, therefore, that his witness is so vague that several interpretations of his thought are possible. As a defensible exegesis I submit three points.

How did Mary end her life? Epiphanius does not know. There are three possibilities: natural death, bloody martyrdom, deathless immortality. Of these, it is illegitimate to exclude any, illegitimate to impose any.

In any event, the end of Mary’s life on earth was worthy of God and in harmony with her dignity and holiness.

Epiphanius’ importance lies in this, that he has posed the problem and allowed us to glimpse the possible solutions.

It is not difficult to see in him the first theologian of the Assumption, in the sense that he had an intuition of the mystery and was fascinated by it.

philvaz.com/apologetics/AssumptionMaryJuniperCarolMariology.htm

Memaw · Aug 22, 2015

dvdjs said:
In light of claims about 2000 yr traditions and modern perspectives, I thought it would be good to offer this look at the earliest known commentary from the East:

philvaz.com/apologetics/AssumptionMaryJuniperCarolMariology.htm

Bloody Martyrdom, huh? First I’ve ever heard of that. What else is next?? God Bless, Memaw

adrift · Aug 22, 2015

Memaw said:
Bloody Martyrdom, huh? First I’ve ever heard of that. What else is next?? God Bless, Memaw

I have always been bothered by the prophecy of Simeon. It has been explained as symbolic of her suffering of seeing her Son die. I am glad to see this writing more to think about.

brandonmorris · Aug 22, 2015

No offense to anybody but it seems like there is a lot of arguing over something that we don’t even know for sure which happened. It’s funny that more arguments are over what happened to Mother Mary at death than Jesus’ birthdate on December 25th being true. Both have the same concept .As far as the Holy Fathers declaring anything none …on Mary’s Assumption other that she was Mary ever virgin and that she was assumed into Heaven however it may have happened. Haven’t we learned anything from Mother Church and Holy Scriptures that we shouldn’t be arguing over these little things but arguing over how we should save should and bring those outside of the faith to Christ …and His truth ? I think personally Mother Mary would have us wanting the latter. So I am just giving that just as food for thought. Until next time God Bless and Hail Maria !

Memaw · Aug 22, 2015

brandonmorris said:
No offense to anybody but it seems like there is a lot of arguing over something that we don’t even know for sure which happened. It’s funny that more arguments are over what happened to Mother Mary at death than Jesus’ birthdate on December 25th being true. Both have the same concept .As far as the Holy Fathers declaring anything none …on Mary’s Assumption other that she was Mary ever virgin and that she was assumed into Heaven however it may have happened. Haven’t we learned anything from Mother Church and Holy Scriptures that we shouldn’t be arguing over these little things but arguing over how we should save should and bring those outside of the faith to Christ …and His truth ? I think personally Mother Mary would have us wanting the latter. So I am just giving that just as food for thought. Until next time God Bless and Hail Maria !

I agree wholeheartedly, God Bless, Memaw

adrift · Aug 22, 2015

brandonmorris said:
No offense to anybody but it seems like there is a lot of arguing over something that we don’t even know for sure which happened. It’s funny that more arguments are over what happened to Mother Mary at death than Jesus’ birthdate on December 25th being true. Both have the same concept .As far as the Holy Fathers declaring anything none …on Mary’s Assumption other that she was Mary ever virgin and that she was assumed into Heaven however it may have happened. Haven’t we learned anything from Mother Church and Holy Scriptures that we shouldn’t be arguing over these little things but arguing over how we should save should and bring those outside of the faith to Christ …and His truth ? I think personally Mother Mary would have us wanting the latter. So I am just giving that just as food for thought. Until next time God Bless and Hail Maria !

Because of this discussion I have come to a deeper understanding of the Assumption especially as viewed by our Eastern Brothers.

dvdjs · Aug 22, 2015

Memaw said:
Bloody Martyrdom, huh? First I’ve ever heard of that. What else is next?? God Bless, Memaw

Next???
This commentary is from the early fourth century! It illuminates the problem with statements that insist that the Eastern teaching, from the beginning, has always been that she died.

babochka · Aug 22, 2015

Memaw said:
Bloody Martyrdom, huh? First I’ve ever heard of that. What else is next?? God Bless, Memaw

It is also the first I’ve heard of that. I wholeheartedly pray that when I’m nearly 80, I’m still hearing the ancient thoughts of saints for the first time. It will mean that I’m still learning.

Memaw · Aug 22, 2015

dvdjs said:
Next???
This commentary is from the early fourth century! It illuminates the problem with statements that insist that the Eastern teaching, from the beginning, has always been that she died.

It doesn’t illuminate anything for me.

Simeon said "A sword of SORROW would pierce her heart. NOT a sword!!! God Bless, Memaw

Memaw · Aug 22, 2015

babochka said:
It is also the first I’ve heard of that. I wholeheartedly pray that when I’m nearly 80, I’m still hearing the ancient thoughts of saints for the first time. It will mean that I’m still learning.

Just make sure what you “learn” is in line with Church teaching and not just someones so called pious thoughts. God Bless, Memaw

babochka · Aug 22, 2015

Memaw said:
Just make sure what you “learn” is in line with Church teaching and not just someones so called pious thoughts. God Bless, Memaw

I thought the Church condemned neither point of view and both are equally acceptable?

Memaw · Aug 22, 2015

babochka said:
I thought the Church condemned neither point of view and both are equally acceptable?

Just because the Church doesn’t “condemn” every thing someone comes up with doesn’t mean she accepts. Can you imagine how hard it would be for the Church to do that. Common sense is sorely needed in some of these things. Why do we have to try to say both are equally acceptable when that is impossible. Can’t have it both ways!! I say TRUST God in all things. There are many mysteries about God we will never understand on this earth. I accept that fully. God Bless, Memaw

AmbroseSJ · Aug 22, 2015

dvdjs said:
In light of claims about 2000 yr traditions and modern perspectives, I thought it would be good to offer this look at the earliest known commentary from the East:

philvaz.com/apologetics/AssumptionMaryJuniperCarolMariology.htm

Your quote was also used in the earlier article linked to showing that there has been at least one Father that was in doubt.

Now that is saying something, because otherwise, the East was NOT in doubt about the death of the Virgin Mary. So we have the exception that proves the rule.

We also have MANY pronouncements of Popes (including St. Pope John Paul II) as well as Liturgical allusions. So the OVERWHELMING CONSENSUS is that the Virgin Mary died. The fact that there are doubts raised even as early as St. Epiphanius proves that SO FAR we are not certain, however likely it may seem.

I do NOT think that the expression of occasional doubts in any way detracts from the Truth that the Church has always taught that the Virgin Mary died.

E.G. The Immaculate Conception was always taught as well from earliest times. However in the Middle Ages, St. Thomas Aquinas expressed doubts based on theological principles. These doubts are necessary steps toward certitude in this imperfect world, and should not disturb anyone in their belief that the Virgin Mary died.

adrift · Aug 22, 2015

Memaw said:
It doesn’t illuminate anything for me.

Simeon said "A sword of SORROW would pierce her heart. NOT a sword!!! God Bless, Memaw

I have contemplated this scripture and have been disturbed by it. I know that the common explanation is that it is symbolic of the pain of seeing Jesus die. I have never been completely satisfied with that answer. Here are the passage treated in several different translations
Parallel
RSV 35: (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed."

NRSV 35 so that the inner thoughts of many will be revealed and a sword will pierce your own soul too.’

Douay 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

NAB 35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce) 1 so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

KJV 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

WEB 35 Yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

ESV 35 (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."

NASB 35 and a sword will pierce even your own soul–to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."

NIV 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."

YOUNG 35 (and also thine own soul shall a sword pass through)-- that the reasonings of many hearts may be revealed.’

Greek 35: kai <2532> {(AND} sou <4675> {OF THEE} de <1161> {ALSO} authV <846> thn <3588> {THY} yuchn <5590> {SOUL} dieleusetai <1330> (5695) {SHALL GO THROUGH} romfaia <4501> {A SWORD

} opwV <3704> an <302> {SO THAT} apokalufqwsin <601> (5686) {MAY BE REVEALED} ek <1537> {OF} pollwn <4183> {MANY} kardiwn <2588> {HEARTS [THE]} dialogismoi <1261> {REASONINGS.}

I don’t see a sword of sorrow what translation do you have?
It does say that the sword will pierce her soul. The question is how could a sword pierce a soul? I find this passage very difficult. It was nice seeing the opinion that it might have been a real sword.

Memaw · Aug 22, 2015

adrift said:
I have contemplated this scripture and have been disturbed by it. I know that the common explanation is that it is symbolic of the pain of seeing Jesus die. I have never been completely satisfied with that answer. Here are the passage treated in several different translations
Parallel
RSV 35: (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed."

NRSV 35 so that the inner thoughts of many will be revealed and a sword will pierce your own soul too.’

Douay 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

NAB 35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce) 1 so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

KJV 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

WEB 35 Yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

ESV 35 (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."

NASB 35 and a sword will pierce even your own soul–to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."

NIV 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."

YOUNG 35 (and also thine own soul shall a sword pass through)-- that the reasonings of many hearts may be revealed.’

Greek 35: kai <2532> {(AND} sou <4675> {OF THEE} de <1161> {ALSO} authV <846> thn <3588> {THY} yuchn <5590> {SOUL} dieleusetai <1330> (5695) {SHALL GO THROUGH} romfaia <4501> {A SWORD} opwV <3704> an <302> {SO THAT} apokalufqwsin <601> (5686) {MAY BE REVEALED} ek <1537> {OF} pollwn <4183> {MANY} kardiwn <2588> {HEARTS [THE]} dialogismoi <1261> {REASONINGS.}

I don’t see a sword of sorrow what translation do you have?
It does say that the sword will pierce her soul. The question is how could a sword pierce a soul? I find this passage very difficult. It was nice seeing the opinion that it might have been a real sword.

ask an apologist, God Bless Memaw

adrift · Aug 22, 2015

Memaw said:
ask an apologist, God Bless Memaw

How would an apologist know what bible version you use?

brandonmorris · Aug 22, 2015

It would help to know that the language that was being used is kinda like a metaphore the pain was piecering to her watching her only Son die on Calvary that type of closeness would hurt like a sword I wouldn’t take the sword literally if being read in context I hope that can shed some insight

dvdjs · Aug 23, 2015

AmbroseSJ said:
Your quote was also used in the earlier article

Excellent. I hadn’t gotten that far in the thread. But as I read earlier posts, I was surprised to see many espousing the view that the question of her death was a product of recent times. In fact, questions about her death were raised in the early times, indeed in the earliest writing that we have.

I do NOT think that the expression of occasional doubts in any way detracts from the Truth that the Church has always taught that the Virgin Mary died.

This was not an expression of doubt of Truth that the church taught, but points to the lack of a consensus teaching at that time. The link also reports other fathers who, later in the first millennium, reinforced the lack of consensus teaching on her death.

In the Byzantine East, a pious story of her passing developed, but the liturgical hymns of the fest do not emphasize this story, but sing of her glory. The hymns at vigil do not emphasize her dying, but of the powerlessness of Death over her - the triumph over Death, which has been vanquished - and her singular translation to heaven following her “deathless dormition”. That is the crux of this joyous feast: she is incorrupt; alive in heaven, body and soul. \

Cavaradossi · Aug 23, 2015

dvdjs said:
Excellent. I hadn’t gotten that far in the thread. But as I read earlier posts, I was surprised to see many espousing the view that the question of her death was a product of recent times. In fact, questions about her death were raised in the early times, indeed in the earliest writing that we have.

This was not an expression of doubt of Truth that the church taught, but points to the lack of a consensus teaching at that time. The link also reports other fathers who, later in the first millennium, reinforced the lack of consensus teaching on her death.

In the Byzantine East, a pious story of her passing developed, but the liturgical hymns of the fest do not emphasize this story, but sing of her glory. The hymns at vigil do not emphasize her dying, but of the powerlessness of Death over her - the triumph over Death, which has been vanquished - and her singular translation to heaven following her “deathless dormition”. That is the crux of this joyous feast: she is incorrupt; alive in heaven, body and soul. \

I disagree. It is death as the passage into new life which is the central theme of the entire feast. The triumph over death is, of course, an element to that, but there is a certain sobriety to the festal texts, which tempers this theme. Even “deathless Dormition” is more somber a turn of phrase than you make it out to be, considering that it essentially means “deathless death,” meaning not that she did not die, but that she experienced death to be translated into a life even greater than this one.

Memaw · Aug 23, 2015

adrift said:
How would an apologist know what bible version you use?

It doesn’t matter what Bible I use, it does Not mean a “Bloody Martyrdom.” We should be very careful how we may be misquiding others, God Bless, Memaw

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