Mary's assumption

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You have indeed been very polite and inviting of discussion others have not and they are the ones who spoil the discussion. I have learned a lot it hasn’t changed my beliefs but enforced them.
Thank you. I have also learned a lot, and have slightly modified my stance. Very slightly. I suppose a Catholic is free, in a sense, to believe that Mary did not die. Not believing this won’t endanger one’s salvation. 🙂 A few weeks ago, while reminding us that the Dormition Fast was beginning, my pastor said, “The fast is voluntary these days - but then again, so is our faith.” Nothing, no belief, is required of us, as we have been given the gift of free will. Some beliefs are crucial to our salvation, and the Church has seen fit to teach those belief in a clear and unambiguous way.
You have asked for evidence that Catholic are free to believe or not believe. What I have read is that the Church has not addressed the subject at all. A tract from Catholic Answers states
First, as much as I respect Catholic Answers, I don’t consider tracts from them to be evidence of Church teaching. I’m looking for Church documents - official catechisms, encyclicals, pastoral letters, liturgical texts, letters of clarification from Rome. That sort of thing. If the church had a teaching that this was a matter of whatever the faithful wish to believe, I think it would have been addressed.

I think I’ve made my case - correct me if you disagree - that the Church does have a teaching that Mary died. Infallible? No. But I contend that the Church teaches through liturgy. The teaching that Mary laid in a tomb is explicit in the Byzantine Rite, and has historically been present in some of the western rites. I’m looking for evidence that the Church also has such a teaching about her Assumption without bodily death. Something official from the Church, somewhere. If such a thing existed, I believe the two positions would be on more equal footing. As it stands, only one has ever been taught by the Church and the Church has not seen fit to clarify. It does seem safer to take the position that has been actually taught by the Church, rather than the one that simply hasn’t been shut down.
The argument I have seen is there are many things that are believed by the Church that are not formally defined. A good point, however, the Assumption was formally defined and the tract continues " and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, “after the completion of her earthly life” (note the silence regarding her death), “was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.” "
I think it is incontrovertible that the Church has taught that Mary died but when it came to officially stating it the Church did not. You have to wonder why?
I think the answer to this is given. “** and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die**,” Any dogma ought to be specific and as narrow as possible.
 
Thank you. I have also learned a lot, and have slightly modified my stance. Very slightly. I suppose a Catholic is free, in a sense, to believe that Mary did not die. Not believing this won’t endanger one’s salvation. 🙂 A few weeks ago, while reminding us that the Dormition Fast was beginning, my pastor said, “The fast is voluntary these days - but then again, so is our faith.” Nothing, no belief, is required of us, as we have been given the gift of free will. Some beliefs are crucial to our salvation, and the Church has seen fit to teach those belief in a clear and unambiguous way.
So true
First, as much as I respect Catholic Answers, I don’t consider tracts from them to be evidence of Church teaching. I’m looking for Church documents - official catechisms, encyclicals, pastoral letters, liturgical texts, letters of clarification from Rome. That sort of thing. If the church had a teaching that this was a matter of whatever the faithful wish to believe, I think it would have been addressed.
I wish I would have made a bet on your answer. I was almost certain you would say what you did.
I bet you know my answer already.
There are many things that the Church does not say we must believe. As you know, it isn’t until a belief is disputed does the Church speak. Perhaps you will not agree but until it was declared that Jesus was both God and man the faithful was free to discuss it. I think this would be true of all that was eventually decided that first there was debate. It was only after the debate was settled that it became what had to be believed. It wasn’t until the 17th century that the traditional teaching was challenged. Was there condemnation? Did the Church issue any document saying that it should not be promoted? You would expect that type of document which you do not. It would seem that the deliberated silence in the dogma might be to allow dissention from the traditional thought. 🤷
I think I’ve made my case - correct me if you disagree - that the Church does have a teaching that Mary died. Infallible? No. But I contend that the Church teaches through liturgy. The teaching that Mary laid in a tomb is explicit in the Byzantine Rite, and has historically been present in some of the western rites.
There is no disagreement
I’m looking for evidence that the Church also has such a teaching about her Assumption without bodily death. Something official from the Church, somewhere. If such a thing existed, I believe the two positions would be on more equal footing. As it stands, only one has ever been taught by the Church and the Church has not seen fit to clarify. It does seem safer to take the position that has been actually taught by the Church, rather than the one that simply hasn’t been shut down.
You could be very right. My position is that the Church does not condemn the belief that Mary did not die and that you may hold that belief. You asked for proof that the Church says that you can hold this belief which of course does not exist but neither exist proof you cannot hold this belief either.
 
Originally Posted by Blue Horizon View Post
Memaw I find it increasingly difficult to assume your good faith denial that there is no Church teaching wrt Mary’s death when you do not answer my polite question (twice now) in mid discussion.
Are these not your own words Memaw: "Please show me where the Church “officially” teaches she died. "

We have shown you that the Pope clearly stated three times in his Encyclical that Mary died. Sure, it was not dogmatically defined and so your contrary view is validly tolerated.
Not all official teaching is dogma.

So please explain why you say this teaching is not official.
Can you perhaps define your understanding of “official”, it seems unusual?
 
:bowdown: You have not been polite nor have you shown any weakness. My whole point is that the Church allows both beliefs something you do not address just personal attacks I have not expressed my views of what I believe but you sure think you know. I have also noted that your other post are the same attack filled rhetoric . If you cannot discuss a subject without personal attacks perhaps it is you who should sit out.

This is some of your uncharitable comments just in this thread
Bradski I think you have issues.
Adrift do you also hold that airplane blackboxes are actually black?
Adrift I don’t think you are quite up to speed on the discussion with Memaw .
(and many other less well informed Catholics)
Not to mention the one I am responding to. It really reeks of uncharitable remarks not to mention straw men fallacies.
Adfrit, indeed if you think my comments are ad hominem attacks I think you must get hurt a lot both here and in real life. You obviously do not understand why, nevermind, rest assured I do not believe this is objectively the case and it certainly isn’t my intention.
 
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babochka:
Were they taught explicitly that she did not die or was it that no mention of her death was ever made?

I was raised in the Byzantine Catholic Church and only in the past few years, through these threads on Catholic Answers, have I come across the idea that she didn’t die.

I’m guessing that you came of age about the time the dogma was promulgated. That must have been a really big deal at the time. Did nobody read the document? I realize we didn’t have the Internet then, and the average lay person didn’t have access to Church documents in the way that we do now. But anybody who has ever read the document cannot be a stranger to the belief that she died.
I came of age at that time, being of the “Medicare” generation. I would say that it may or may not have been mentioned, that the Virgin Mary died before her Assumption. I know that for myself, I was taught that she DID die in my Catholic elementary school taught by the Sisters of St. Joseph. This was just prior to Vatican II. So Catholics were still taught in the Faith, pretty much how they were for ages past. However, once Vatican II occurred, it was hijacked in the USA (and perhaps elsewhere) by the liberals, who were anxious to toss out every ancient teaching they could lay their hands on. So it may explain WHY so many are confused as to Church teaching on this subject. I run into Catholics OFTEN who complain that the Church KEEPS changing everything. (These are good faithful Catholics, who adhere to Church teaching, but are not learned enough to distinguish between what is ancient and what is novel; what is doctrine and what is discipline, etc.)

As for reading the document; probably very few Catholics ever read the document before the age of the internet. I suspect that very few have read the document in its entirety EVEN IN THIS THREAD!

But I am like you, when I started hearing over and over how the Virgin Mary never died in my local parish, and from local parish priests, I was shocked and confused. That is why I made it my business to learn as much as possible about this matter, based on OFFICIAL church teachings.

One thing you will NEVER find: Official Church teachings that say the Virgin Mary NEVER died. The adversaries that promote this error have only one fall back: viz. That they are free to believe what they please in this matter.

That is why I have repeated my constant refrain, THAT IF you want to know the mind of the Church, you will realize that the Virgin Mary DID die.

Not only is this the mind of the Church, but Saints and visionaries have repeated OFTEN that the Virgin Mary HERSELF told them she died and that her body was in the tomb for 3 days. (See my earlier post on the Basilica of Ta’ Pinu in Malta) Not that this constitutes dogmatic Church teaching; But the pious soul who humbly seeks the Truth, will undoubtedly come to it. 🙂
 
Adfrit, indeed if you think my comments are ad hominem attacks I think you must get hurt a lot both here and in real life. You obviously do not understand why, nevermind, rest assured I do not believe this is objectively the case and it certainly isn’t my intention.
You make assumptions that are unfounded. You are rare, thankfully, for this forum. It is a pity that you cannot see how your posts are uncharitable. You make unnecessary comments that do not further the conversation. They are ad hominem because you attack the person, not what was said. Read the other posters here they** do **address what is written and not the person. You are very caustic and unable to see yourself in the mirror.
You ask sarcastic questions "Adrift do you also hold that airplane blackboxes are actually black? " and then demur that they weren’t intentional. :rolleyes:
 
We should seek the Truth, not what we personally would rather.

The entire Eastern Church has ALWAYS taught that the Virgin Mary died. The entire Western Church has been in complete agreement with the Eastern Church on this question until very recently. The language of Munificentissimus Deus has raised to the boiling point this debate about whether the Virgin Mary died.

I have posted biblical, logical, theological, and liturgical reasons all confirming that the Virgin Mary died in many threads here in the past.

Ask yourself this question: We know the Virgin Mary was not deserving of death because of her Immaculate Conception. But was the Virgin Mary deserving of ANY suffering that she endured in this life? No. of course not. Why did she suffer in this life? For same reason that Jesus did: to offer intercessory prayers and sacrifices to the Father on behalf of sinners. Is it so hard to believe that the Virgin Mary would embrace death, for the sake of sinners, as her own Son did? Do you wish the Virgin Mary did NOT offer prayers and sacrifices for you and me and all sinners? No. of course not.

Furthermore, denying the death of the Virgin Mary, also denies her Resurrection, which is ALSO implicit in the doctrine of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary.

Beware! Take Care! Do not follow the folly of modern times and its misguided “feel good” warm fuzzies. The Gospel is a rigorous doctrine for all.
You are implying that I am not seeking the truth, only what I personally “would rather.” You pounce on every little thing you can to discredit me while at the same time admitting we can believe either way. Mary did NOT die for sinners, Jesus did. With statements like that, no wonder our non-Catholic friends criticize us the way they do. Mary dedicated her life on earth doing God’s will.
How can you say her Resurrection was “implicit” in her Assumption?? What part of BODY and SOUL do you not understand!! I do NOT deny her body and soul went to Heaven, together, as the Church requires us to believe.

YOU SAID,
“Do you wish the Virgin Mary did NOT offer prayers and sacrifices for you and me and all sinners?”

What kind of a statement is that? Implying I don’t!! Your making a very disturbing conclusion on what I believe, once again. As for her sacrifice she made her complete Sacrifice when she said “YES” to GOD, just before the Incarnation. Making it possible for her SON to make the Divine Sacrifice for our sins. Being a well learned young Jewish girl, and being “Full of Grace” I’m sure she knew exactly what that meant and she did God’s Will perfectly.
AND to top it all off with BEWARE!! as if I have something to beware of!! How uncharitable is that?? God Bless, Memaw
 
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Memaw:
What kind of a statement is that? Implying I don’t!!
You are inferring, I am not implying. All of my posts are directed to any forum reader, not just YOU. Until now I have stopped responding to your posts because of your rash and unjust interpretation of what is said. Your reaction is to reach all the way back to post #25 and express how offensive you find that post to be. :mad: Well, why not just ignore them and TRY to contribute to the topic of the thread? 🤷
 
You are inferring, I am not implying. All of my posts are directed to any forum reader, not just YOU. Until now I have stopped responding to your posts because of your rash and unjust interpretation of what is said. Your reaction is to reach all the way back to post #25 and express how offensive you find that post to be. :mad: Well, why not just ignore them and TRY to contribute to the topic of the thread? 🤷
Aren’t we the wise one!! And what was I responding to, way back in post 24?? God Bless, Memaw
 
Aren’t we the wise one!! And what was I responding to, way back in post 24?? God Bless, Memaw
Why do you keep trying to make this thread about yourself?

I haven’t seen you post one thing from OFFICIAL Church teaching that proves the Virgin Mary NEVER died. Your only real defense, and that goes for everyone that espouses this error, is that Munificentissimus Deus is vague. 🤷

Let see SOMETHING else, either in the Liturgy, or from any of the Popes, or from any other Official Church document, that says the Virgin Mary never died. That is what you CAN’T produce. You have NO POSITIVE proof.

We have provided the Testimony of the entire Eastern Church, Church documents from Popes, statements in Munificentissimus Deus, Liturgical statements and statements of Saints and visionaries, all saying that the Virgin Mary died.
 
I came of age at that time, being of the “Medicare” generation. I would say that it may or may not have been mentioned, that the Virgin Mary died before her Assumption. I know that for myself, I was taught that she DID die in my Catholic elementary school taught by the Sisters of St. Joseph. This was just prior to Vatican II. So Catholics were still taught in the Faith, pretty much how they were for ages past.
I was taught this as well along with limbo. It was eyebrow raising when I learned that there were many legends.
However, once Vatican II occurred, it was hijacked in the USA (and perhaps elsewhere) by the liberals, who were anxious to toss out every ancient teaching they could lay their hands on. So it may explain WHY so many are confused as to Church teaching on this subject. I run into Catholics OFTEN who complain that the Church KEEPS changing everything. (These are good faithful Catholics, who adhere to Church teaching, but are not learned enough to distinguish between what is ancient and what is novel; what is doctrine and what is discipline, etc.)
Your right on target here imho.
As for reading the document; probably very few Catholics ever read the document before the age of the internet. I suspect that very few have read the document in its entirety EVEN IN THIS THREAD!
Before this thread I had but I must admit not as carefully.
But I am like you, when I started hearing over and over how the Virgin Mary never died in my local parish, and from local parish priests, I was shocked and confused. That is why I made it my business to learn as much as possible about this matter, based on OFFICIAL church teachings.
I don’t recall when I first heard this but it didn’t bother me. What bothered me more was that it doesn’t seem to be mentioned until the 3rd or 4th century.
One thing you will NEVER find: Official Church teachings that say the Virgin Mary NEVER died. The adversaries that promote this error have only one fall back: viz. That they are free to believe what they please in this matter.
That is why I have repeated my constant refrain, THAT IF you want to know the mind of the Church, you will realize that the Virgin Mary DID die.
Not only is this the mind of the Church, but Saints and visionaries have repeated OFTEN that the Virgin Mary HERSELF told them she died and that her body was in the tomb for 3 days. (See my earlier post on the Basilica of Ta’ Pinu in Malta) Not that this constitutes dogmatic Church teaching; But the pious soul who humbly seeks the Truth, will undoubtedly come to it. 🙂
While I was looking up some information, unexpectedly I found this
As the Virgin Mary remained an ever-virgin and sinless, it is viewed that the Virgin Mary could not thus suffer the consequences of Original Sin, which is chiefly Death. Nicea II Session 6 Decree
They reference newadvent.org/cathen/11045a.htm I cannot find any justification for this statement. Have you run into it?

This discussion reminds me of another discussion with similar arguments. The arguments used here are the same type that is used for women covering their heads. Neither really has anything to do with our salvation.
 
While I was looking up some information, unexpectedly I found this

Quote:
As the Virgin Mary remained an ever-virgin and sinless, it is viewed that the Virgin Mary could not thus suffer the consequences of Original Sin, which is chiefly Death. Nicea II Session 6 Decree

They reference newadvent.org/cathen/11045a.htm I cannot find any justification for this statement. Have you run into it?

Thank you adrift! Very interesting!!! God Bless, Memaw
 
While I was looking up some information, unexpectedly I found this

Quote:
As the Virgin Mary remained an ever-virgin and sinless, it is viewed that the Virgin Mary could not thus suffer the consequences of Original Sin, which is chiefly Death. Nicea II Session 6 Decree

They reference newadvent.org/cathen/11045a.htm I cannot find any justification for this statement. Have you run into it?

Thank you adrift! Very interesting!!! God Bless, Memaw
I believe this is why I was led to believe she was assumed into heaven alive. While I can say I never read this, I know for sure this was told to me; especially “the Virgin Mary could not thus suffer the consequences of Original Sin, which is chiefly Death”
 
I hope that I can explain this in a more simpler way so here goes…
According to the Church either person can believe either she died in her body and was raised soul and body or alive. If we take the Old testament story of the Prohet Elijah taken up in a whirlwind could possibly have happened but even Elijah was under the penalty of death. Jesus himself being God man showed us as humans how we are all under the penalty of death. Mary being token alive body and soul is based on a very strong Tradition that even stated the Apostles was transported to see her death by the Holy Spirit. Ultimately it has never been fully defined by the Church so It up to the individual to believe kinda like one believeing if Jesus was born on December 25th . I hope this helps . God Bless
 
While I was looking up some information, unexpectedly I found this

Quote:
As the Virgin Mary remained an ever-virgin and sinless, it is viewed that the Virgin Mary could not thus suffer the consequences of Original Sin, which is chiefly Death. Nicea II Session 6 Decree

They reference newadvent.org/cathen/11045a.htm I cannot find any justification for this statement. Have you run into it?

Thank you adrift! Very interesting!!! God Bless, Memaw
Understand I have the statement but the reference does not check out. Everything that I have found is that the Church from the beginning believed she died
 
I came of age at that time, being of the “Medicare” generation. I would say that it may or may not have been mentioned, that the Virgin Mary died before her Assumption. I know that for myself, I was taught that she DID die in my Catholic elementary school taught by the Sisters of St. Joseph. This was just prior to Vatican II. So Catholics were still taught in the Faith, pretty much how they were for ages past. However, once Vatican II occurred, it was hijacked in the USA (and perhaps elsewhere) by the liberals, who were anxious to toss out every ancient teaching they could lay their hands on. So it may explain WHY so many are confused as to Church teaching on this subject. I run into Catholics OFTEN who complain that the Church KEEPS changing everything. (These are good faithful Catholics, who adhere to Church teaching, but are not learned enough to distinguish between what is ancient and what is novel; what is doctrine and what is discipline, etc.)
I went to Catholic School in the 1970s. Frankly, my religious education was pretty good. Certainly, we didn’t memorize the Baltimore Catechism and we used some pretty fluffy books (my mom kept them, so I’ve had a chance to look at them as an adult). But I knew the faith pretty well. I don’t know if this is due to the teaching of the Sisters of Mercy, the highly catechetical nature of the Byzantine Divine liturgy, or my own parents. I doubt it was from my parents, though they tried. My dad went to Catholic school in the 1950s, including a highly rated prep school (Chaminade High School in St. Louis), with priests and religious in his extended family, but came out very poorly catechized. I think it was because his family faith was weak. My grandparents cared enough to send the kids to Catholic school, and my grandmother’s house was full of crucifixes and Holy Water fonts, but they didn’t go to Mass. My mom converted as a teenager in 1964, after having received private instruction. She was told that all that a Catholic must believe is what is contained in the Nicene Creed. I just don’t buy it that it all fell apart from this wonderful state of catechesis prior to Vatican II. I, on the other hand, knew the basics of the faith pretty well. The two things that stand out is that we didn’t have First Confession until 4th grade, and that the good sisters had never heard of Eastern Catholics. They spent several years trying to “correct” the way I made the sign of the cross and dear Sister Paul was quite horrified that I went up to receive Holy Communion in first grade. The pastor approved my reception of communion, but I think she whispered a quiet prayer for my soul until I made my proper “First” Communion in second grade. Even after the pastor assured the sisters that we were, indeed, a Catholic family, I think some of them were never quite convinced. Others embraced it and took the opportunity to learn about Byzantine Catholicism.

High School was not quite so solid. One year, my teacher was a Jesuit priest who had some interesting ideas. I lived in a military city and liberation theology was all the rage. I had teachers who spent the weekend blocking the passage to the military bases, protesting US involvement in Central America. They were interesting times, as are all times. Still, somehow in all of that, I was assigned to read Casti Connubii and Humanae Vitae in a class on Marriage.

So really, it wasn’t all bad in the era immediately following Vatican II.
As for reading the document; probably very few Catholics ever read the document before the age of the internet. I suspect that very few have read the document in its entirety EVEN IN THIS THREAD!
I often have to remind myself that the vast majority of Catholics have never read an encyclical, nor any other official Church document. Many faithful Catholics who are striving to be good Catholics have not had any formal instruction in the faith since 8th grade and they only get what happens at Sunday Mass.
But I am like you, when I started hearing over and over how the Virgin Mary never died in my local parish, and from local parish priests, I was shocked and confused. That is why I made it my business to learn as much as possible about this matter, based on OFFICIAL church teachings.

One thing you will NEVER find: Official Church teachings that say the Virgin Mary NEVER died. The adversaries that promote this error have only one fall back: viz. That they are free to believe what they please in this matter.

That is why I have repeated my constant refrain, THAT IF you want to know the mind of the Church, you will realize that the Virgin Mary DID die.

Not only is this the mind of the Church, but Saints and visionaries have repeated OFTEN that the Virgin Mary HERSELF told them she died and that her body was in the tomb for 3 days. (See my earlier post on the Basilica of Ta’ Pinu in Malta) Not that this constitutes dogmatic Church teaching; But the pious soul who humbly seeks the Truth, will undoubtedly come to it. 🙂
I’m not one to rely on private revelation, but I do try to always see what the Church teaches about a subject and what has been taught historically.

It is clear to me that the Church has taught the physical death of Mary. It is also becoming more and more clear to me that it really doesn’t matter what you believe on this topic, since it doesn’t endanger one’s salvation to believe the wrong thing. On the other hand, I’m not sure why someone would choose to believe contrary to the overwhelming consensus of the Church Fathers and saints.
 
Understand I have the statement but the reference does not check out. Everything that I have found is that the Church from the beginning believed she died
Thank you for the clarification and for the quote. I’ll check it out.
 
It has to be one or the other. God Bless, Memaw
You’re right. It does have to be one or the other. They cannot both be true. So I see why you, and I, and others on this thread so adamantly defend our beliefs. One side is right and the other side is wrong.

While both positions might be allowed, since one has never been formally opposed by the Church, only one position has been taught by the Church. For the life of me, I cannot get my mind around why one would choose a position that has never been taught by the Church over a belief that has been taught and believed from earliest times until today. The main answer I get is that Mary could not have died because she did not have original sin. While that makes sense on the surface, even to me, I default to the wisdom of the Church. I default to the celebration of one of the oldest feasts of Our Lady, the feast of the Dormition. These people, who have taught her death for centuries, know more than I do.
 
You’re right. It does have to be one or the other. They cannot both be true. So I see why you, and I, and others on this thread so adamantly defend our beliefs. One side is right and the other side is wrong.

While both positions might be allowed, since one has never been formally opposed by the Church, only one position has been taught by the Church. For the life of me, I cannot get my mind around why one would choose a position that has never been taught by the Church over a belief that has been taught and believed from earliest times until today. The main answer I get is that Mary could not have died because she did not have original sin. While that makes sense on the surface, even to me, I default to the wisdom of the Church. I default to the celebration of one of the oldest feasts of Our Lady, the feast of the Dormition. These people, who have taught her death for centuries, know more than I do.
And so on it goes, while you also admit both positions are allowed, you couldn’t help putting me down for my thoughts on the subject. I “default” to the Church and her DEFINED Dogma. God Bless, Memaw
 
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