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Memaw
Guest
Read post 59 again! God Bless, Memaw
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RyanBlack
Guest
I don’t need to read it again. I understood it the first time I read it.
I ask you, what is your basis for claiming that there were no witnesses, other than your own opinion? Or do you acknowledge that there simply is no basis–other than one’s own opinion-for making such a claim?
On the other hand, those who do believe that there were witnesses have on their side an ancient, honored tradition of the Church.
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CaptFun
Guest
I’m Catholic, and so the authoritative teaching of the Church is enough for me … but that’s also “biblically supported” by those passages where Christ commissioned and empowered that Church (LATER recorded in scripture for our instruction). THAT said …
You did say “biblical support” … of which there’s quite a bit. A specific, historical “proof text” from the bible would be different.
Mary was believer number ONE. The first Christian. The first person to “accept Jesus into her life …”. An Angel from God the Father exalted her (to her initial astonishment) before he gave her God’s message that she was the most “blessed among women”. Then the Holy Spirit, through Elizabeth in
Mary is a believer … per that John 14:12 qualification above. And Jesus ascended bodily into heaven.
There is also “biblical precedent” and historical precedent for God taking some people bodily away without dying (e.g. the OT cases of Enoch and Elijah). Though the Church does not specify that Mary “did not die” nor that she did first “die”. Just that at the end of her days she was taken to heaven.
Paul goes on to speak about the end times and that some would not not die but be changed “in the air” and receive a new glorified body. If Mary were alive and heard or read this passage … it would fulfill that prophecy before the end times but literally in her case.
A glorified body is still a body … and so “bodily taken up into heaven”.
In Revelation 12:1 comes a vision of a glorified and crowned woman clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet … either Mary (most blessed among women) or another woman “less blessed”. She is IN heaven and not invisible. She is symbolic of the Church which “gives birth to Christ” on earth in suffering and is pursued by the devil.
Later appearances of Mary are also like Jesus’ “things that I do and greater things …” in that He appeared to Saul (St. Paul) after the Ascension (First Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 15:8 “`Last of all, He appeared to me, as one born out of due time.’”
When Mary appears (and the Church does not affirm every claimed one of these, but discerns) - she appears bodily, but also in a glorified body that CAN appear, seem to hover
“in the air” at times and works miracles (through the powers given to her by Jesus of course, but miracles nonetheless).
MOST Important in the Church’s examinations of such is if the messages given are consistent with the teachings of Jesus and the Church (for scripture says that Satan also can “appear” as an Angel of light < but NOT giving the true light of course). Is the message one of obedience to God as in Mary’s " … let it be done unto me according to thy word" holy submission to God’s will? Or in her similar " … do whatever He (Jesus) tells you …" counsel to the servants at Cana?
Those two quotations from Mary rather neatly sum up the duties of all Christians. And live out Jesus’ summary of “What is the greatest commandment?” Loving God with ones whole heart, soul and mind (and the second which is like it) … loving one’s neighbor as oneself.
The question of Mary being taken bodily into heaven is rather a side dish to the main course which teaches us how to be Christians, like the first one, Mary, the mother of Jesus, Our Lord.
But it led us to some important insights didn’t it.
Seek and Ye Shall Find Department sort of. :newidea:
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KathleenGee
Guest
InHisGrace, Memaw…and all.
There are 3 dogmas in the Church.
So we can only assume that Mary was gloriously assumed into heaven…
August 6 is the feast of the Transfiguration of Christ symbolizing his forthcoming divine mission from heaven to nourish us with His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Word Made Flesh, that we experience in the Mass.
August 15 is the date of the feast of the Assumption and likewise the end of WWII…Japanese Catholics were standing in line for confession when the bomb struck Nagasaki, and they were completely gone. (The story of Japanese Catholics is incredible to know.)
We uphold doctrine and we uphold dogmas of the Church, all 3 of them.
Papal infallibility is not about the Pope having the last say. Francis said this in America last week. Rather, the pope and the successors of the apostles – the bishops, are in right relationship with the Lord as called to serve.
After doctrines and the dogmas of faith, there is nothing else for any pope to add.
Today the popes speak to us in encyclicals…and not all of them carry the same weight of truth. Our local bishop helps us understand them and how to relate to them. And I heard the story of how Pope Paul VI wanted all seminaries to teach in Latin and nobody followed through.
The Church is a human institution. If one studies the history of the papacy, there is alot of give and take between the seat of Peter and the bishops.
There are 3 dogmas in the Church.
- Papal infallibility, not defined until the first Vatican Council in the 1850’s. When the pope looks upon the tradition of faith upheld and practiced for a long time, the pope than can propose a statement of faith…if ‘statement’ is the right word at this point.
- The Immaculate Conception. Catholics have long believed going back to ancient Christianity that Mary was perpetual virgin and remained so for the rest of her life. This dogma of the Immaculate Conception was made likewise in the 1850’s.
- The third dogma is the Assumption of Mary into heaven by Pope Pius XII. Pope Pius pretty much single handedly ran the Church during the times prior, during and following of WWII, as well as the rise of communism throughout the world. It is said he saw the miracle of the sun. He was a most obedient shepherd and had great faith in the office of Peter. He wrote more than John Paul II.
So we can only assume that Mary was gloriously assumed into heaven…
August 6 is the feast of the Transfiguration of Christ symbolizing his forthcoming divine mission from heaven to nourish us with His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Word Made Flesh, that we experience in the Mass.
August 15 is the date of the feast of the Assumption and likewise the end of WWII…Japanese Catholics were standing in line for confession when the bomb struck Nagasaki, and they were completely gone. (The story of Japanese Catholics is incredible to know.)
We uphold doctrine and we uphold dogmas of the Church, all 3 of them.
Papal infallibility is not about the Pope having the last say. Francis said this in America last week. Rather, the pope and the successors of the apostles – the bishops, are in right relationship with the Lord as called to serve.
After doctrines and the dogmas of faith, there is nothing else for any pope to add.
Today the popes speak to us in encyclicals…and not all of them carry the same weight of truth. Our local bishop helps us understand them and how to relate to them. And I heard the story of how Pope Paul VI wanted all seminaries to teach in Latin and nobody followed through.
The Church is a human institution. If one studies the history of the papacy, there is alot of give and take between the seat of Peter and the bishops.
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Memaw
Guest
I agree with most of what you said except- the Church is not a human institution, it is a Divine Institution founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit and so protected from teaching error. The Pope can and has made decisions even when the Bishops don’t agree with him. He has the final say in all matters. Thanks God Bless, Memaw
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Peregrinans
Guest
I thought the dogma of the Immaculate Conception only asserts that Mary was conceived free from original sin. I don’t believe it addressed the belief in her perpetual virginity or in her lifelong sinlessness. Am I incorrect?
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Blue_Horizon
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Do you accept that Mary’s death was clearly stated and personally believed by Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical?
If that is the case then surely we must accept it is an official (yet possibly fallible) Papal teaching.
However this teaching was not infallibly defined as a Dogma.
So Catholics are presently free to hold the unusual more recent view.
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benhur
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Hi Rita,
Don’t forget Psalm 69:8 “I am a foreigner to my own family, a stranger to my own mother’s children;”
Blessings
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
That’s a good final summary.Yes, I did mean domestically defined, thanks. In the past, I, and others, have brought up Encyclicals as well as other early church writings, as proof that the Church teaches, or used to teach, that Mary died prior to the Assumption only to be told that it wasn’t “officially” declared and that the dogmatic declaration in 1950 was open for interpretation. So, as usual, confusion abounds. I personally have no doubt that she died since: 1) she is human and all humans die, 2) it would have been odd, to say the lest, that Mary was entombed while still alive and 3)if she were alive (not in a tomb) and was swept up to Heaven…don’t you think it would be BIG news at the time? Even perhaps included in the bible? Just saying. But, apparently, the Church is cool with the belief that she didn’t die.
I prob wouldn’t say the Church is exactly “cool” with the modern view that she did not die.
As it was not “opportune” to affirm Mary’s death infallibly when the Assumption was Dogmatically pronounced I would say this favours the ancient teaching and the modern view (that she did not die) is somewhat “tolerated” as it were.
Pope JP II put it this way
" “The Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, when her earthly life was over” (MD). With this formula…my Venerable Predecessor Pius XII, made no pronouncement on the question of Mary’s death. Nevertheless, Pius XII did not intend to deny the fact of her death, but merely did not judge it opportune to affirm solemnly the death of the Mother of God as a truth to be accepted by all believers. "
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Blue_Horizon
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Good points.
Though I think the matter of witnesses is perhaps a side issue.
Scripture is silent re any witnesses of Mary’s Assumption … yet the Church felt it has the authority to pronounce definitively on this all the same.
I see no reason why this could not one day be done re Mary’s death.
And given that there has been a continuous tradition (and even an official teaching by more recent Popes) it is fairly clear which way the Dogma would go if pronounced tomorrow.
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Memaw
Guest
Can’t have it both ways, either She did or she didn’t!! I still believe if God would have wanted us to know what took place at that PRECIOUS Moment, HE would have told us. God Bless, Memaw
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KathleenGee
Guest
Mary was protected from Original Sin…and she in much greater salvation and redemption…to become the mother of Christ.
Mary was perpetual virgin. The Lord honored her desire to be fully consecrated to God. And to become the Mother of Christ, how could she contradict the consecrated life because Christ is God.
Mary was perpetual virgin. The Lord honored her desire to be fully consecrated to God. And to become the Mother of Christ, how could she contradict the consecrated life because Christ is God.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Memaw…yes the Church is both physical and spiritual, visible and invisible, divine and human.
We see plenty of humanity in the Church…it is a human institution…
We see plenty of humanity in the Church…it is a human institution…
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
I support the perpetual virginity of Mary she is the Mother of God , but Mary is a sinner
Keep the faith Kathleen , Starwars
Agreed. The fact that it does not conflict with scripture, nor do harm to the Gospel is the reason belief in the Assumption is permitted. Just not requires.
Good points.
Question: why is it necessary to hold this teaching, one I personally believe, as an article of faith, binding the conscience of the believer?
Jon
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Memaw
Guest
Who instituted the Church, Christ or people?? Who protects the Church ,The Holy Spirit or people? We are members of Christ’s Church, it is not our institution. If I left the Church today, it would still continue on as Christ set it up. Yes, we make up the Body of Christ’s Church and thank God HE has Holy people in to guide us, but HE is the Head. HE gave the Church the structure and the Authority, Pope, Bishops, Divine Revelation, His Mother etc. It all belongs to Him and I wouldn’t dare think it was mine. I thank God I belong to it, thanks to my grandparents who came into the Church many years ago. I am afraid if it was up to us human beings, we would have destroyed the Church long ago. And it seems that some are still trying to do so today. They won’t, they can’t, but they try. God Bless, Memaw
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Blue_Horizon
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Of course we can, both views are permitted.
Nevertheless what is your view then…do you accept that Mary’s death was clearly stated and personally believed by Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical or not?
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Memaw
Guest
My view is that the Infallible teaching of the Assumption does NOT state that Mary died so I go with that! The Pope could have so easily included that in there if the Holy Spirit would have inspired him to. But HE didn’t. Going with that and the fact that Mary was conceived Immaculate and NEVER sinned so was NOT under the penalty of sin and death, and we have NO actual witnesses to Her Assumption, I leave it all up to God and HE knows exactly how it took place. As I said before, it is one of GOD’s Great Mysteries. If HE would have wanted us to know, HE would have revealed it. I love pondering on God’s Mysteries, it shows me how awesome HE is and how little I know. And NO we cannot have it both ways. Either She died or She didn’t!! I try to focus on Her life and what she taught us and still teaches us. God Bless, Memaw
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dmar198
Guest
My own view is that Mary probably died because in my research that appears to be the majority position among the Fathers. But I think the following Fathers suggest a minority position – that she did not die:
St. Justin Martyr - “Eve…brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy.” (Dialog with Trypho Chapter 100)
St. Hippolytus of Rome - “The Lord was without sin, made of imperishable wood, as regards His humanity; that is, of the virgin and the Holy Spirit inwardly, and outwardly of the word of God, like an ark overlaid with purest gold.” (Commentary on Psalm 22, as quoted in Haffner, P. The Mystery of Mary. Gracewing Publishers, p. 77)
St. Gregory the Wonderworker - “A bulwark of imperishable life hath the Holy Virgin become unto us, and a fountain of light to those who have faith in Christ; a sunrise of the reasonable light is she found to be.” (Homily on the Mother of God)
St. Epiphanius - “[Mary] is like Elijah, who was virgin from his mother’s womb, always remained so, and was taken up, but has not seen death.” (Panarion 79)
Timothy of Jerusalem - “Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption.” (Homily on Simeon and Anna)
Yes.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
It’s a simple question I put to you MM.
Either the Pope clearly stated Mary died (three times at least) in his Encyclical or he didn’t. Why do you deny this?
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