Mary's Consignment to Disobedience

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(* “…righteous Joshua and the bulk of balking bozos…” , LOL)

That makes some sense to me in a couple of ways :
  1. In the first sense, conversely. St. Alphonsus Liguori said in his book **The Glories of Mary ** , that God “…wanted Mary to be like Jesus in every way.” So we know that, on the Cross, Jesus had been condemned as a blasphemer.
  2. In the normal workings of divine law, your point makes perfect sense - St. Thomas Aquinas said mercy does not deny justice, mercy presupposes justice.
But the whole gyst of the Immaculate Conception is being set apart, preserved, (“saved” if you like) from what all the bulk of us balking bozos inherit, essentially.

Father John Hardon, S.J. keeps the definition short ,sweet and clear in his Modern Catholic Dicitonary . Here’s the most pertinent first half :

“IMMACULATE CONCEPTION. Title of the Blessed Virgin as sinless from her first moment of existence. In the words of Pope Pius IX’s solemn definition, made in 1854, “The most holy Virgin Mary was, in the first moment of her conception, by a unique gift of grace and privilege of almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ the Redeemer of mankind, preserved free from all stain of original sin.” This means that since the first moment of her human existence the mother of Jesus was preserved from the common defect of estrangement from God, which humanity in general inherits through the sin of Adam. Her freedom from sin was an unmerited gift of God or special grace, and an exception to the law, or privilege, which no other created person has received.”

It suggests to me that we have to think even further outside the box on this one. It isn’t so much something we as Catholics are required to try and prove. But as dogma, the Church proposes Mary’s Immaculate Conception as worthy of our belief, so as individuals, we try to give our “assent of faith.”

In your original post, you begin by saying ,

I think we agree . However, none of us are aware of the full magnitude of that statement… simply because we are speaking of God’s Mercy - which isn’t something a created mind is able to grasp in its entirety.

I refer to , our Blessed Lord Jesus’ words to St. Faustina as recorded in her diary :

“My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity.”

So we all agree that God used His greatest asset - His Mercy, when He contemplated Mary . However, we don’t know (and never will) just how great that asset actually is. Neither can we presume exactly how he would have poured out this asset while making His own Mother… As Father John Corapi said : " Now, if you were able to make your own mother, wouldn’t you do a great job of it ?"
Hi!

Great, great post. One of the best I have ever seen.

IF there was an immaculate conception - and going that far is a Big Step for me - it was preceded, logically, by Mary’s consignment to disobedience BEFORE she was shown mercy. Paul’s argument in Romans is that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Mary’s salvation was through Christ, therefore it must have been through faith. She takes on the righteousness of Christ as any believer does.

Or are Catholics arguing that Mary has some kind of special individual covenant with God outside the atoning work of Christ? I don’t think so.

-Tina “Not Much of a Theologian Anyway” G
 
As Mary is a daughter of Adam and Eve, I guess this works.

Now you lost me. If she was preserved form original sin, how could she even have sinned?
That is not the argument here. Whether she sinned or not is for some other thread. Threads, actually, as it seems to have been repeatedly beaten into the ground. As far as I can tell, Scripture does not state it either way. Where Scripture is silent I try not to claim it is speaking.
I guess this works too.
I think you are getting close to getting off the fence. If you need a little more convincing, study the Chruch’s moral teachings. No other institution or belief system has the moral clarity of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Best wishes.
Fence??

-Tina “Out on the Range” G
 
Was Jesus fully man? Would that not mean that according to Paul, He was a sinner?
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us - for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hanges on a tree” Galatians 3:13 NASB

“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” 2 Cor 5:21 NASB

Jesus was forensically declared to be sin even though He did not sin. So why should Mary be an exception to lucid passages that emphasize “all”?
Catholics don’t argue that Mary wasn’t saved by her own righteousness, anymore than we argue that ANYONE is saved by their own righteousness. But God clearly had special plans for Mary (let’s face it: He MARRIED her) from before she was even born (see Genesis 3). Mary was full of grace, which means she was without sin, since sin and grace are incompatible
I am not sure you meant to say that first line that way.

What official Catholic teaching states that God married Mary?

Sin and grace are incompatible, and we all struggle as battlefields between them as we strive to follow Christ.

-Tina “My Own Little War” G
 
Yes.
But Zooey (who has Traveled This Same Mental Path) now understands that what Non-Catholic Christians call “saved” is the same thing as what Catholics call “in the state of grace”. (Yes, yes, I know, but have a little patience. She’s working at this).

See my:) translation from Catholic to non-Catholic, above.

You said you looked at the Greek. Greek I don’t know; I only got as far as Latin, BUT–the word used for full of grace in re: Mary is NOT the same word as anybody else.
The word used for her means something like: “So full to overflowing that it’s a wonder she didn’t go off to Heaven right there & then”.
The word for the rest of us poor…What was it? Oh! Yes! The rest of the ;)“bulk of balking bozos” that makes up the rest of the human race is more like, “some have a teaspoon; some a tablespoon; and if you have half a cup, you’re in somebody’s calendar of saints”.

He wasn’t full though. He’s full now, because he’s in Heaven. Just like when I found a mouse in my kitchen in the middle of the night, I yelled :eek:“The Bad Word” for the second time this month. (The ‘word’ for what you step in at the north end of a southbound horse).
I’m not sure if being:o rude to rodents counts as a sin, but you see what I mean? This is the way we all are. Except that Mary, in consequence of Who she was to give birth to, got there earlier.

Would it help to think of it, temporarily at least, as being set apart for a singular purpose 👍THE singular purpose] & therefore divinely equipped for the job?

(It would probably help if we could get some of our Eastern brethren in on this, but I think that they believe in “ancestral sin” which I don’t understand the difference, but its apparently there:shrug:).
I think that maybe having grown up around Holiness folks, I have a mental model for “completely holy”. There is a standard we are to aim for, and Mary hit the nail directly on the head. (Whereas I didn’t even manage to hit a mouse on the head, while I was yelling at him).

Somebody please jump in here & tell me I am making some small modicum of sense here…😊
Hi, Zooey! Welcome aboard! What’s snood with you?😃

I don’t see an equation between “saved” and “being in a state of grace”. The first has a finality the second lacks. Sorry!

I don’t know that Mary was completely and totally holy in everything she did. From something I heard, Chrysostom thought she sinned at least once, not that he speaks for the whole Church. OTOH she did such a superior job in raising her first born that mine is a sinner by comparison. Well. Duh. She is above me faulting her, anyway and that is not the purpose of this thread.

-Tina “What is the Purpose of the Thread, Anyway? I Started it because I was Mad at my Bad Haircut and I Wanted to Pick a Fight but It is Not Working” G
 
Why does this “argument” make “such things” irrelevant?

Chuck
Hi, Chuck!

Because Mary’s personal righteousness is irrelevant. Either you have her own personal righteousness - however excellent -to draw from, limited in time and space, or the infinite righteousness of Christ applied to her, as it is applied to believers. I don’t think there is a double standard, one for her, and one for the rest of us.

-Tina “No Double Standards on This Thread” G
 
Hi, Chuck!

Because Mary’s personal righteousness is irrelevant. Either you have her own personal righteousness - however excellent -to draw from, limited in time and space, or the infinite righteousness of Christ applied to her, as it is applied to believers. I don’t think there is a double standard, one for her, and one for the rest of us.

-Tina “No Double Standards on This Thread” G
I guess I don’t see the point of your opening post or of this thread.

Why would you think that the method of Mary’s salvation has anything to do with yours or mine?

Chuck
 
I guess I don’t see the point of your opening post or of this thread.

Why would you think that the method of Mary’s salvation has anything to do with yours or mine?

Chuck
Because she is part of “all”.

-Tina “Not all” G
 
Because she is part of “all”.

-Tina “Not all” G
So the point of the thread is that you think your “argument” somehow disproves either that Mary was immaculately conceived or that she remained sinless [or both] because we are “all” saved the same way?

Chuck
 
So the point of the thread is that you think your “argument” somehow disproves either that Mary was immaculately conceived or that she remained sinless [or both] because we are “all” saved the same way?

Chuck
Just go back to the OP. I think what I am after is clear enough.

-Tina “I Love Lucidity” G
 
Just go back to the OP. I think what I am after is clear enough.

-Tina “I Love Lucidity” G
Obliviously not, so given that you’ve declined to offer any clarification. I’ll opt out.

Good luck with whatever it is you might have been looking to discuss.

Chuck
 
Obliviously not, so given that you’ve declined to offer any clarification. I’ll opt out.

Good luck with whatever it is you might have been looking to discuss.

Chuck
Sorry, I thought I had spent a lot of time clarifying things on the thread.

I’m sad you are opting out.

-Tina “All Good Threads Go Into Oblivion Anyway” G
 
Mary alone found grace with God for herself and for every individual person. No patriarch or prophet or any other holy person of the Old Law could manage to find this grace.

It was Mary who gave existence and life to the author of all grace, and because of this she is called the “Mother of Grace”.

God the Father, from whom, as from its essential source, every perfect gift and every grace come down to us , gave her every grace when he gave her his Son. Thus, as St Bernard says, the will of God is manifested to her in Jesus and with Jesus.

God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St Bernardine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills.

As in the natural life a child must have a father and a mother, so in the supernatural life of grace a true child of the Church must have God for his Father and Mary for his mother. If he prides himself on having God for his Father but does not give to Mary the tender affection of a true child, he is an impostor and his father is the devil.

Since Mary produced the head of the elect, Jesus Christ, she must also produce the members of that head, that is, all true Christians. A mother does not conceive a head without members, nor members without a head. If anyone, then, wishes to become a member of Jesus Christ, and consequently be filled with grace and truth , he must be formed in Mary through the grace of Jesus Christ, which she possesses with a fullness enabling her to communicate it abundantly to true members of Jesus Christ, her true children.

The Holy Spirit espoused Mary and produced his greatest work, the incarnate Word, in her, by her and through her. He has never disowned her and so he continues to produce every day, in a mysterious but very real manner, the souls of the elect in her and through her.

Mary received from God a unique dominion over souls enabling her to nourish them and make them more and more godlike. St Augustine went so far as to say that even in this world all the elect are enclosed in the womb of Mary, and that their real birthday is when this good mother brings them forth to eternal life. Consequently, just as an infant draws all its nourishment from its mother, who gives according to its needs, so the elect draw their spiritual nourishment and all their strength from Mary.

It was to Mary that God the Father said, “Dwell in Jacob”, that is, dwell in my elect who are typified by Jacob. It was to Mary that God the Son said, “My dear Mother, your inheritance is in Israel”, that is, in the elect. It was to Mary that the Holy Spirit said, “Place your roots in my elect”. Whoever, then, is of the chosen and predestinate will have the Blessed Virgin living within him, and he will let her plant in his very soul the roots of every virtue.

Mary is called by St Augustine, and is indeed, the “living mould of God” . In her alone the God-man was formed in his human nature without losing any feature of the Godhead. In her alone, by the grace of Jesus Christ, man is made godlike as far as human nature is capable of it. A sculptor can make a statue or a life-like model in two ways:
1] By using his skill, strength, experience and good tools to produce a statue out of hard, shapeless matter;
2] By making a cast of it in a mould. The first way is long and involved and open to all sorts of accidents. It only needs a faulty stroke of the chisel or hammer to ruin the whole work. The second is quick, easy, straightforward, almost effortless and inexpensive, but the mould must be perfect and true to life and the material must be easy to handle and offer no resistance.

Mary is the great mould of God, fashioned by the Holy Spirit to give human nature to a Man who is God by the hypostatic union, and to fashion through grace men who are like to God. No godly feature is missing from this mould. Everyone who casts himself into it and allows himself to be moulded will acquire every feature of Jesus Christ, true God, with little pain or effort, as befits his weak human condition. He will take on a faithful likeness to Jesus with no possibility of distortion, for the devil has never had and never will have any access to Mary, the holy and immaculate Virgin, in whom there is not the least suspicion of a stain of sin.

Dear friend, what a difference there is between a soul brought up in the ordinary way to resemble Jesus Christ by people who, like sculptors, rely on their own skill and industry, and a soul thoroughly tractable, entirely detached, most ready to be moulded in her by the working of the Holy Spirit. What blemishes and defects, what shadows and distortions, what natural and human imperfections are found in the first soul, and what a faithful and divine likeness to Jesus is found in the second!

There is not and there will never be, either in God’s creation or in his mind, a creature in whom he is so honoured as in the most Blessed Virgin Mary, not excepting even the saints, the cherubim or the highest seraphim in heaven. Mary is God’s garden of Paradise, his own unspeakable world, into which his Son entered to do wonderful things, to tend it and to take his delight in it. He created a world for the wayfarer, that is, the one we are living in. He created a second world - Paradise - for the Blessed. He created a third for himself, which he named Mary. She is a world unknown to most mortals here on earth. Even the angels and saints in heaven find her incomprehensible, and are lost in admiration of a God who is so exalted and so far above them, so distant from them, and so enclosed in Mary, his chosen world, that they exclaim: “Holy, holy, holy” unceasingly.

St Louis de Montfort
 
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us - for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hanges on a tree” Galatians 3:13 NASB

“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” 2 Cor 5:21 NASB

Jesus was forensically declared to be sin even though He did not sin. So why should Mary be an exception to lucid passages that emphasize “all”?
Do babies sin? How about the mentally retarded? There are exceptions to the rule. Mary is one of them.
I am not sure you meant to say that first line that way.
I tell it like it is. Catholics don’t claim that anyone is saved by their own righteousness, including Mary. Mary was, as Gabriel made clear, ‘full of grace.’ For two thousand years, from the Apostles themselves, Christ’s church has taught that this was not a momentary state, but her entire being. It wasn’t even an issue until the mid-nineteenth century. Check this link for quotes from the early days of the Church on this topic.

staycatholic.com/ecf_immaculate_conception.htm
What official Catholic teaching states that God married Mary?
Did I say this was an official Catholic teaching? Connect the dots. The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary. The Holy Spirit, being God, cannot possibly commit a sin. Pre-marital sex is a sin, according to both the Catholic church and the Jewish faith. Both Christians and Jews get their moral teachings from God the Father, who is not going to do something immoral as the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. Further, Joseph never had marital relations with Mary; she remained a virgin for her entire life. (staycatholic.com/ecf_mary_ever-virgin.htm) Why? Because Joseph knew that for all intents and purposes, Mary was the wife of God. And no, there was no ceremony.
Sin and grace are incompatible, and we all struggle as battlefields between them as we strive to follow Christ.
Indeed we do all struggle, because unlike Mary, we weren’t chosen as bearers of the Word of God.
 
Do babies sin? How about the mentally retarded? There are exceptions to the rule. Mary is one of them.

Indeed we do all struggle, because unlike Mary, we weren’t chosen as bearers of the Word of God.
Hi!

Jesus called the sinners, not the righteous, and came to heal the sick, not those who did not need a doctor. If you say these people have no sin, then you say their righteousness is good enough and they don’t need Christ’s righteousness. Since the only way anyone gets into heaven is to be justified by faith, what you necessarily are saying is that babies and the mentally retarded and Mary all go to hell. That is not right. How do you reconcile the verse in the OP with Catholic theology? Maybe that is a better way to have opened this thread.

-Tina “You can always find a better opening post after a thread has run a while” G
 
Hi!

Jesus called the sinners, not the righteous, and came to heal the sick, not those who did not need a doctor. If you say these people have no sin, then you say their righteousness is good enough and they don’t need Christ’s righteousness. Since the only way anyone gets into heaven is to be justified by faith, what you necessarily are saying is that babies and the mentally retarded and Mary all go to hell. That is not right. How do you reconcile the verse in the OP with Catholic theology? Maybe that is a better way to have opened this thread.

-Tina “You can always find a better opening post after a thread has run a while” G
Babies are incapable of sinning, but they still suffer from the effects of original sin, as do all of us (except Mary).

We are not justified by faith; we are justified by grace. As Jesus said, not all those who say ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Faith alone has never and will never be enough. Mary was saved by Christ, but not because she was a sinner. She was human, and the entire human race needed salvation. She repaired the damage Eve did with her disobedience by submitting herself to God’s will, and for that, she has been rewarded eternally in heaven.
 
That is not the argument here. Whether she sinned or not is for some other thread. Threads, actually, as it seems to have been repeatedly beaten into the ground. As far as I can tell, Scripture does not state it either way.
I think I misread the whole thing. I thought you were minimizing non-Catholic vs. Catholic teaching on the IC.

My bad.
Where Scripture is silent I try not to claim it is speaking.
Does this approach work for the abortion issue?
 
I think I misread the whole thing. I thought you were minimizing non-Catholic vs. Catholic teaching on the IC.

My bad.

Does this approach work for the abortion issue?
Scripture speaks on abortion. “Thou shalt not kill.” More than one infant in the womb is described in Scripture as human (not demeaned to the status of “tissue” or “potential human”. Therefore, abortion is murder. Scripture speaks on abortion, so the approach works, I guess.

But this thread is not about abortion.

-Tina "Let’s keep on track, shall we? G
 
Babies are incapable of sinning, but they still suffer from the effects of original sin, as do all of us (except Mary).

We are not justified by faith; we are justified by grace. As Jesus said, not all those who say ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Faith alone has never and will never be enough. Mary was saved by Christ, but not because she was a sinner. She was human, and the entire human race needed salvation. She repaired the damage Eve did with her disobedience by submitting herself to God’s will, and for that, she has been rewarded eternally in heaven.
Babies are still in a state of sin, are they not? Though they have done nothing! I guess that is what you mean, right? And Mary lived in the world and suffered the effects of original sin, at a minimum in the lives of those around her and the fallen world. Don’t we all suffer from the sins of others? But I guess that’s not what you meant, is it?

Paul clearly states we are justified by faith. I agree with you that bare, naked faith is not enough - true faith, by its nature, will produce works.

The point I think I am trying to make is that at some point, logically, Mary lost her own righteousness and acquired that of Christ, which can only be acquired by grace or faith. Therefore at some point in the logical progression her own righteousness, however excellent, was rejected in favor of Christ’s infinite righteousness. That rejection is then a condemnation of her own righteousness, her logical acquisition of the status of a sinner, and subsequent taking on of Christ’s righteousness. I still do not understand why you are rejecting this progression.

Christ came to save sinners. He did not come to call the righteous. Therefore, if Mary was completely righteous, Christ did not save her, as she had no need. But we can only come to God through Christ, and the only way to come to Christ is by faith. So Mary believed, as we see in Luke 1. It is not clear to me why all this is not in accord with Catholic theology. I am puzzled by all this. Am I not clear, or am I just hopelessly off base in terms of dealing with Catholic theology?

Thanks for your time,

-Tina “Not that I am Anything of a Theologian” G
 
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