Mary's Immaculate conception

[Zooey]

MusicMan:

That’s the paradox. If He can create a person without sin, why doesn’t He? If He can make Mary without sin, He didn’t need to sacrifice His son, He just needed to create man sinless. If He can do it for Mary, He can do it for all of us.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Methodist has no idea, but since this is, after all, God we are talking about (as opposed to, say, my Uncle Harold), I am not about to argue the matter with Him…OK, after I get to Heaven, I may ask.
It is, you see, not my call; it was His. I presume that He did things in the best possible way.
I also recognize that I may never be capable of understanding His reasoning…That’s OK, too. It’s frustrating as all get-out, but it’s OK.

(Obviously, I believe that Mary was indeed conceived without sin, which is going to rile my protestant brethren…In fairness, I have to say that, if it turns out [in Eternity, again] that she* wasn’t*, that won’t totally throw me either…Although, I will definitely be having that talk with God under those circumstances; because I won’t understand it).

 

[chriswilliam]

flameburns623:

The Polish National Catholic Church is a schsimatic Church with valid sacraments, like the Old Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox. They split from the RCC over the First Vatican Council and the issue of Papal Infallibility. They have accepted no Papal pronouncments since that time and hence reject the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate Conception. They probably do pray the Rosary however.

No we shouldn’t be called Prostestant. We believe everything the Roman Church does in Mary. The PNCC beliieves that Mary was sinless the two churches disagree at what point she became sinless. We say it happened when she argreed to do the will of God and was overshadowed by the holy spirit. We have been in dailogue with the RC for 25yrs. There only a coupleof things that keep us apart and that is the infallibility of the pope and married bishops and that the church is owned the the parishes.

 

[chriswilliam]

Aug. 15 is a holy day for us to. It’s called the enterance of Mary in Heaven not the Assumption. And yes we do say the rosary.

 

[Son_of_a_Son]

Greetings to my brothers and sister in Christ.

To help understanding the Immaculate Conception of Mary, it makes more sense if you understand typology, “types” of Adam and types of Eve. The Immaculate Conception is rooted from the very beginning in the Bible. Yet I’m at a loss as to why, when it’s explained and pointed out in the Bible, they still don’t want to believe, even St Thomas believed after he had seen with his own eyes? Here are only a few of the “types” of Jesus and Mary. God knew us before we were in the womb. For those that can only believe if it’s found in the Bible:

The first man to be created and born without sin is Adam. God, the purest of all, created the earth pure and without sin. God formed out of his purest creation Adam. Adam was born as God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Jesus breathing through his nostrils, the breath of life, is the new Adam, created without sin and is born from the one who is purest and full of Grace. Jesus is also the second in the Trinity. God then takes from his second purest creation Adam and made Woman. The first “woman” created and born without sin, is later named Eve after the fall of original sin. Because of sin God said he will put enmity between the serpent offspring and the Woman’s offspring and He will crush your head (the first covenant). Adam names his wife Eve and she becomes the mother of all living things. Mary is the new Woman/Eve who has received all of her grace at her creation and is born without sin. Mary becomes the mother of all living things when she gives birth to the creator of all living things, God made flesh in the man Jesus.

The Holiest things on earth, in the OT, are carried in the most perfect vessels known as ark(s). Why? Because they carried life and the Holiest possessions of God. From God, who is the most perfect, gives the most perfect dimensions and details on how the arks are to be created. The first ark carried Noah (a type of Adam) the one God found favor in and his family to preserve mankind along with all the animals that breathe the air of the earth. The ark of the Lord that Moses created housed the Holiest things on earth Aarons staff, the Manna from heaven and the (law) written by God in stone. In the NT the ark that is created perfectly (full of grace-without sin) is a virgin created to carry the savior of mankind. The new ark is Mary and she is the “Woman” that carried the promise and the off spring that was born of flesh to strike at the head of Satin with his heel and abolish death. When you read the gospel of ST John it reads just like Genesis. In the beginning then as you read there is a next day and a next day and next day and then you read on the third day, (three days from what?) three days from the last day mentioned is the sixth day and there is a wedding. Reading Genesis and St John both of those weddings fall on the 6th day. At the wedding at Cana in Galilee there are only two people who are mentioned they are Jesus mother and Jesus. In Genesis the only two who are mentioned and in a wedding are man and woman who are both sinless. Jesus addresses his mother as “Woman” the same way Adam and God both addressed (Eve) the Women in the beginning before sin. Throughout the whole NT Jesus always address his mother as Woman. Why would he do this? Just as God and Jesus always change the name of those who are important, Jesus changes her name from Mary to Woman. Because she is sinless, filled with the Grace of God at creation and only “Woman” is created and as full of Grace as Jesus. So where Adam went to the wrong tree, Jesus went to the right tree. Where Woman became disobedient, Mary was obedient. Jesus is the new Adam and Mary is the new Eve.

 

[seabird3579]

BrianH:

Seabird
A heart condition? Goodness.
I would say that the virgin birth and Christ’s divinity are very biblical, they are very clear on this I do not think anyone on this board would say contrary, well any Christians anyway. I for one assure you I would believe the Immaculate Conception if it was in there OR if I knew the early church taught it…130 CE is my understanding of when this can be clearly documented too late of a tradition to be valid in my opinion.
here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says on this:

"In regard to the sinlessness of Mary the older Fathers are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter. "

Brandon H,

You and I are familiar with each other on another internet Forum called the American View related to the Constitution Party. There we have debated the same issue of the Immaculate Conception and whether or not there is Scriptural support for it. This morning I posted a page from Patrick Madrid’s very informative book, “Where Is That in the Bible?” regarding the Immaculate Conception. I was trying to be helpful to protestant Reformers (as they call themselves) regarding the points that Mr. Madrid makes in his book. After the managing editor, Scott Whiteman, discovered *All of the Scriptural references * to Mary and the foreshadowing that she would be the Ark of the New Covenant, he made haste to shut the thread down.

Catholics should know and be aware that “The American View’s” managing editor frequently allows anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish statements to be made unchecked. But when faced with the Scriptural Truths about Mary’s Immaculate Conception, he shut the thread down.

At this point, I would NOT encourage any Catholics to place their hopes in the Constitution Party or their affliate, The American View.

Peace,
Brenda

 

[BrianH]

seabird3579:

Brandon H,

You and I are familiar with each other on another internet Forum called the American View related to the Constitution Party. There we have debated the same issue of the Immaculate Conception and whether or not there is Scriptural support for it. This morning I posted a page from Patrick Madrid’s very informative book, “Where Is That in the Bible?” regarding the Immaculate Conception. I was trying to be helpful to protestant Reformers (as they call themselves) regarding the points that Mr. Madrid makes in his book. After the managing editor, Scott Whiteman, discovered *All of the Scriptural references * to Mary and the foreshadowing that she would be the Ark of the New Covenant, he made haste to shut the thread down.

Catholics should know and be aware that “The American View’s” managing editor frequently allows anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish statements to be made unchecked. But when faced with the Scriptural Truths about Mary’s Immaculate Conception, he shut the thread down.

At this point, I would NOT encourage any Catholics to place their hopes in the Constitution Party or their affliate, The American View.

Peace,
Brenda

Hello Brenda
My name is Brian and I have never been on that site.
BrianH

 

[seabird3579]

BrianH:

Hello Brenda
My name is Brian and I have never been on that site.
BrianH

Sorry Brian, disregard please, turns out the person’s name is BrandonH – on the Reformers forum he suggested he made a grave error by asking a question regarding the Immaculate Conception.

I was pleasantly surprised that he would pursue that question on a decidely protestant site, and tried to answer best I could. It seemed that as long as I wasn’t providing coherent Scriptural verses, they had they’re fun poking at the simple little Catholic woman, but when I finally got hold of Patrick Madrid’s book and gave them completely coherent Scriptural references – they quickly shut down the thread (I guess claiming heresy, in their narrow view). They definitely did not want to hear or even consider that Mary could be the Ark of the new Covenant, as Mr. Madrid so nicely lays out.

Catholics should be aware of this and feel free to go to their site and ask Catholic questions particularly how they relate to the American Constitution and being pro-life. Take your Bible, your Concordance and your Catechism with you. God Bless.

Brenda

 

[BrianH]

Not a problem…maybe Brandon and I look alike…jk
I am not Catholic but I thought Howard Phillips was Catholic and the last guy the nominated was as well…off topic sorry DONT MOVE ME TO POLITICS…I will stop

 

[YADA]

I find it amusing when we are told that our catholic beliefs have changed over time, while the protestant beleifs are constant. Well research and study shows the opposite. Protestant belief and doctrine have been changing and in a state of flux for 500 years (its entire history)

A study of the beliefs of the Reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli sp?) would show that they frequently refered to Mary as “Ever Virgin” They believed in the virgin birth, sinlessness of Mary and the perpetual virginity. As time past the sinlessness of Mary was questioned by other protestant sects as the protestant church continued to fracture and evolve. Along with this loss was the Immaculate Conception.

Christianity ala Protestantism has changed. Today we have protestant theologians dismissing the virgin birth. Just watch CNN, TLC, Discovery Channel, etc. Did you not know that Jesus was the result of the procreative unity of Joseph and Mary or the rape of Mary by a Roman soldier? I heard it all on cable TV just the other night. It was on CNN so it must be true. John Dominic Crossan and the Jesus Seminar are rewriting Christianity as we post, clearly they know better than anyone. Ecumenical, scholarly…The Roman Catholics have it all wrong…

Personnally, I think I’ll stick with the Church and all 2000 years of Tradition, Scripture, and practice.

 

[Kendy]

cazayoux:

uh huh … that pesky Catholic Tradition went and gave us worship on Sunday rather than the Sabbath … and this Immaculate Conception thing … and that compilation of Gospels and letters we call the New Testament.

Why is Church on Sunday and the New Testament Canon an acceptable Catholic Tradition, but not the Immaculate Conception? If you follow some Catholic Traditions, by what basis do you decided which?

michel

I am a protestants. I think it’s ok to have traditions. Human beings naturally have traditions. I can accept catholic traditions that I are not unbiblical or problematic. I don’t feel the need to reject everything that happens to be catholic. I also am not convinced that I need to accept something because it happens to be a catholic tradition.

I would reject a catholic tradition if I thought it was obviously unbiblical. I would reject a catholic tradition if I thought it would lead to a behavior that are potential sinful or lead to problematic conclusion.

In the case of Mary, the bible does not say that she was born sinless or not. However, the bible does say that Jesus was the only without sin, which makes me think that Mary cannot be included. But what really bothers be about this view of Mary is that it has been used to raise her to something of a demi-godess whether intentional or not. I think it is right to honor Mary…however, and I grew up catholic, Marian devotion seems to exceed that.

 

[seabird3579]

Kendy:

IIn the case of Mary, the bible does not say that she was born sinless or not. However, the bible does say that Jesus was the only without sin, which makes me think that Mary cannot be included…

Actually, you are mistaken. The bible states that God created Adam and Eve without sin, and as Patrick Madrid explains in his book, “Where Is That in the Bible?” when the angel Gabriel announced to Mary, “Hail, full of grace” it implies that she is filled with grace and therefore sinless. He also notes many, many other references in the Bible where Mary is pre-figured, like others, in the Old Testament resulting in the “perfected” version in the New Testatment. Some examples he cites are: Moses as a prefigurement to Christ; circumcision as a prefigurement to baptism; ritual animal sacrifice in the Temple prefigures the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross. He goes on to state that Mary was prefigured in the Old Testament, and I will quote the following from his book, page 68:

"…Mary’s sinlessness, her Immaculate Conception, was the perfect fulfillment of several imperfect Old Testament types (i.e. foreshadowing; cf. Hebrews 1:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 15:15-47).

The first of these types was the immaculately created cosmos (cf Genesis 1:2). It was from this pristine organic material, as yet unblemished by sin or corruption, that God formed the body of the first Adam (cf. Genesis 2:7). Jesus Christ is the “second Adam” (cf. Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22). Christ, the second Adam, was formed from the body of this Immaculate mother Mary."

 

[seabird3579]

Patrick Madrid also goes on to explain further:

"Yet another major Old Testament type that Mary fulfills is that of the Ark of the Covenant, the beautiful container that was designed to carry the Word of God in Scripture within itself. The Ark was an Old Testament image of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, the woman who received from God the inestimable privilege and dignity of carrying within her own body the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Redeemer and King of Israel, the Word of God in the flesh. Notice the startling parallels that emerge when we compare the Old Testament episodes involving the Ark with Mary in the New Testament. Most importantly, notice that God desired that the Old Testament Ark be fashioned “perfect in every detail.” He wanted it to be made of the finest materials available, covered with gold, and off limits to anyone. No one was allowed to touch the Ark, that is how important it was to God. (2 Sam.6:6-7).(my emphasis) This points to Mary being even more priceless in God’s eyes, and the fact that he would all the more want her to be created “perfect in every detail.” Notice the strong parallels between the Ark imagery in 2 Samuel 6 and Mary in Luke 1. And finally, keep in mind that the Blessed Virgin Mary is a “temple of the Holy Spirit” as well (cf. 1 Cor. 6:19).

The phrase used in 2 Samuel 6:12, the Lord “blessed Obededom and all his household,” was seen by many Christian writers as being a euphemism for fertility and abundance of life being lavished on his household as a result of the presence of the Ark of the Lord. Notice that in the Gospel of Luke, Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth who had just recently been “blessed” by the Lord with the gift of a new child in her old age."

 

[amgid]

blessedrosary:

I fail to understand why most Protestants have a problem believing that Mary was sinnless. . . .

An interesting thread. I haven’t read all the posts, because there are quite a few of them, and some of them quite long, and my attention span rather limited! But I am curious to know what you all mean by saying that Mary was “sinless”. Do you mean that she never committed any sins during her lifetime; or do you have some other definition in mind?

amgid

 

[jim1130]

blessedrosary:

I fail to understand why most Protestants have a problem believing that Mary was sinnless. If Jesus is God, which ALL Christians believe, then why is it so bad to believe that our Lord and Savior deserves to be born of someone somewhat-worthy to be his mother.
Also, if I could create my own mother, which Jesus could have done, then why WOULDN’T he make her perfect?
Also, Protestants act like it is an offense against Jesus by venerating his mother. I think most people take great honor in hearing complements of our own biological mother. Woudn’t you agree?
Please explain your beliefs on this issue to me. Thanks and God bless.

Do you think it is because it is not seemed “logical”? That is my guess (but when and where has God ever been logical, right?).

 

[adrift]

jim1130:

Do you think it is because it is not seemed “logical”? That is my guess (but when and where has God ever been logical, right?).

you have me confused An explanation please.

 

[amgid]

amgid:

An interesting thread. I haven’t read all the posts, because there are quite a few of them, and some of them quite long, and my attention span rather limited! But I am curious to know what you all mean by saying that Mary was “sinless”. Do you mean that she never committed any sins during her lifetime; or do you have some other definition in mind?

amgid

Bump

amgid

 

[Son_of_a_Son]

But I am curious to know what you all mean by saying that Mary was “sinless”.

Merry Christmas my brother and sisters in Christ.

Indeed blessed mother Mary was given and received her full grace at her birth and thus was not born with original sin. She also lived God’s will to the fullest.

 

[tomaskovarik]

blessedrosary:

I fail to understand why most Protestants have a problem believing that Mary was sinnless. If Jesus is God, which ALL Christians believe, then why is it so bad to believe that our Lord and Savior deserves to be born of someone somewhat-worthy to be his mother.
Also, if I could create my own mother, which Jesus could have done, then why WOULDN’T he make her perfect?
Also, Protestants act like it is an offense against Jesus by venerating his mother. I think most people take great honor in hearing complements of our own biological mother. Woudn’t you agree?
Please explain your beliefs on this issue to me. Thanks and God bless.

Well, I am a Catholic convert (I used to be a ultra-protestant) and so Mary is of special importance to me. It has been very difficult for me to accept Mary alongside with Jesus (with whom alone I was used to commune) and accept the doctrine of immaculate conception as well as the dogma of Mary being the Queen of Heaven and other claims, typical of Catholic Church. So, I temporarily placed this “on hold” and concentrated on “baby food” hoping that later on the Holy Spirit will lead me to some understanding.
OK, the time has progressed and now I am starting to view Mary in a different way. I do have a personal reason for this. I have noticed that when I pray about something concerning emotions, or love (when I was in love), or relationships, Mary seems to take a particular interest in it. When I direct my prayers to her, I really feel that she is reciprocating in a very caring, motherly fashion. When I have a problem of the “male kind” (don’t ask me for details), I find Mary to be there pleading for me. Weird huh!
And then I started to watch Mother Angelica and her simple, uncomplicated theology and faith…very convincing.
So, I bought a rosary and intend to do that regularly, maybe even join a group in our church.
I don’t think that Jesus would be offended when he sees that we give his mom our hearts and devotion.
So, heil Mary, full of grace…(this prayer also has an incredible strength, doesn’t it? Just try to pray it regularly)
Tomas

 

[seabird3579]

tomaskovarik:

I have noticed that when I pray about something concerning emotions, or love (when I was in love), or relationships, Mary seems to take a particular interest in it. When I direct my prayers to her, I really feel that she is reciprocating in a very caring, motherly fashion. When I have a problem of the “male kind” (don’t ask me for details), I find Mary to be there pleading for me. Weird huh!

Not really, tomas. I know what you mean about feeling her motherly presence when you pray. She’s been helping me in a very motherly way for over 35 years. I felt very drawn to her as a child when my mother, sister and I would say the rosary together in the evening. As a young girl while outside, everytime I saw a rosebush, I would think of her in a very sweet way. Now, looking back, I realize that was just her way of saying she was thinking about me. All through my teens, early adulthood and later when things got really rough for me in different relationships, my Mother was always there with a soft voice and reassurance. Sometimes I had to be corrected, but she always did it gently. Mary is the perfect mother, she provides great healing to the soul who has been abandoned, rejected or just left to grow up without a mother. As Jesus said to the apostle John while He was dying on the cross, “Behold your Mother.” At the same time, He was talking to all of us.

 

[tomaskovarik]

seabird3579:

Not really, tomas. I know what you mean about feeling her motherly presence when you pray. She’s been helping me in a very motherly way for over 35 years. I felt very drawn to her as a child when my mother, sister and I would say the rosary together in the evening. As a young girl while outside, everytime I saw a rosebush, I would think of her in a very sweet way. Now, looking back, I realize that was just her way of saying she was thinking about me. All through my teens, early adulthood and later when things got really rough for me in different relationships, my Mother was always there with a soft voice and reassurance. Sometimes I had to be corrected, but she always did it gently. Mary is the perfect mother, she provides great healing to the soul who has been abandoned, rejected or just left to grow up without a mother. As Jesus said to the apostle John while He was dying on the cross, “Behold your Mother.” At the same time, He was talking to all of us.

Very beautiful words indeed, thank you for your comment. This pretty much reassures me that my feelings about mom (Mother Mary as I now call her) are right. In one of my posts I describe my painful lost of a beloved woman, the love of my life. It has been mom who has been there, she experienced similar pain (she lost her beloved son), she understands and I can feel it. I think that when I feel Nina’s (the departed loved one) presence, it is actually mom who is there standing besides me.
Sometimes in my own bedroom, I can smell a faint scent or roses (which some people report in connection with Marian apparitions), and although I don’t believe that mom is appearing to me, I am convinced that this is her way of telling me that she is there.
Mom reflects somehow, mysteriously, the feminine site of the divine. Maybe thats the reason why she was instituted so high in Heaven. (So that heaven is not all male dominated like our patriarchal world has been).
Mom is not forcing herself on us, but she is there when we invite her. She is indeed blessed among women and she brings us a particular joy and a freshly new spiritual dimension to our faith.
This beautiful gem is totally closed to protestants, unfortunately, how much they are missing out.
Tomas