Mary's perpetual virginity

[clh1217]

Thank you for the citation. Here is the full paragraph:

1172 “In celebrating this annual cycle of the mysteries of Christ, Holy Church honors the Blessed Mary, Mother of God, with a special love. She is inseparably linked with the saving work of her Son. In her the Church admires and exalts the most excellent fruit of redemption and joyfully contemplates, as in a faultless image, that which she herself desires and hopes wholly to be.”

So the paragraph is speaking about the liturgical year, not about salvation. And the language used is “linked with”, not “helps”. The apostles are also inseparably linked with the saving work of Christ (and they too are honored during the liturgical year). This is just a simple fact, nothing startling about it at all.

But even so, is there not a perfectly valid way that even you or I could be understood to “help” somebody’s salvation by preaching the gospel to them and taking part in (I don’t say causing) their conversion to Christ? If that person then said “God bless you! You helped me to find God! You helped me to get saved!” would that be an heretical statement?

I think you’re reading far, far too much into the words.

??

I am reading what it says.

To even think for a moment that any ONE is ““Linked”” or ““helping”” in someones salvation is absurd.

God is doing it all. And it would be done, with our without you. With or without the Apostles, and with or without Mary…

God’s will is JUST THAT. His will.

We only get to be a player in His will…but HE does not need our help. HE wants it.

YOU my friend are reading far far to much into it.

 

[LJN21]

So Mary and the Apostles didn’t have free will?

 

[clh1217]

So Mary and the Apostles didn’t have free will?

OF COURSE…

but, do you think God did NOT KNOW exactly what she was going to say and do?

Same with the Apostle’s?

Do you think God was SHOCKED at the choice Judas made???

Please?

Is God …GOD???

 

[LJN21]

OF COURSE…

but, do you think God did NOT KNOW exactly what she was going to say and do?

Same with the Apostle’s?

Do you think God was SHOCKED at the choice Judas made???

Please?

Is God …GOD???

Yes, of course God knew what they were going to say. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a choice in the matter. God knows what I’m going to make for dinner tonight, I still have to go in the kitchen and decide what I’m cooking.

Why is it crazy to acknowledge that Mary and the Apostles said Yes to Gods Divine Will?

 

[clh1217]

Yes, of course God knew what they were going to say. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a choice in the matter. God knows what I’m going to make for dinner tonight, I still have to go in the kitchen and decide what I’m cooking.

Why is it crazy to acknowledge that Mary and the Apostles said Yes to Gods Divine Will?

It isn’t crazy…it is right to acknowlege that.

Your dinner tonight has no bearing on God’s PROVIDENTIAL SOVEREIGN will…

unless of course a member is going to choke on a chicken bone from your bbq.

God CHOSE these people BECAUSE of who they were and are and knew they would CHOOSE wisely.

 

[VociMike]

??

I am reading what it says.

To even think for a moment that any ONE is ““Linked”” or ““helping”” in someones salvation is absurd.

God is doing it all. And it would be done, with our without you. With or without the Apostles, and with or without Mary…

God’s will is JUST THAT. His will.

We only get to be a player in His will…but HE does not need our help. HE wants it.

YOU my friend are reading far far to much into it.

If I ask my son to help me with painting a wall, that is not an admission on my part that I could not have painted the wall on my own. It is not an admission of inability on my part.

But again I will point out that the language you cited did not speak of “helping” but of being “linked with”. This is simply a statement of historical fact. How can anybody read the New Testament and then deny that Mary and the Apostles were “linked with the saving work of Christ”?

 

[LJN21]

It isn’t crazy…it is right to acknowlege that. .

Then whats your problem with the Catholic Church acknowledging it?

 

[clh1217]

If I ask my son to help me with painting a wall, that is not an admission on my part that I could not have painted the wall on my own. It is not an admission of inability on my part.

But again I will point out that the language you cited did not speak of “helping” but of being “linked with”. This is simply a statement of historical fact. How can anybody read the New Testament and then deny that Mary and the Apostles were “linked with the saving work of Christ”?

because you know as well as I do that we aren’t talking about painting…

we are talking about Mary saving.

1994 Catechism says:

“Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation…” Pg. 252, #969

“Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.” Pg. 125, #494

 

[LJN21]

“Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.” Pg. 125, #494

Actually if you look carefully that is a quote from St. Irenaeus who was the Bishop of Lyon in the 2nd century.

I guess the Church must have been lost a long time for it to finely find its self in the 16th century.

 

[VociMike]

because you know as well as I do that we aren’t talking about painting…

we are talking about Mary saving.

YOU may be talking about Mary saving, but I’m not and neither is the Church. And deep down I suspect you know that, even as you cherry-pick quotes here and there to try and support your unsupportable position.

Now, if I’m wrong and you truly do believe that the Church teaches that Mary saves us, then take it from me as a cradle Catholic that the Church teaches no such thing.

There, now your mind can rest at ease. Unless perhaps you, a non-Catholic, refuse to believe me and other Catholics, when we tell you what the Church teaches.

So, do you, a non-Catholic, claim to know more about what the Church teaches than do we Catholics? That would be an astonishing claim, although I have met countless non-Catholics who essentially make that exact claim.

So I will ask you point blank: Do you believe the Catholics here when we tell you that the Church does not teach that Mary saves us or anybody?

 

[clh1217]

YOU may be talking about Mary saving, but I’m not and neither is the Church. And deep down I suspect you know that, even as you cherry-pick quotes here and there to try and support your unsupportable position.

Now, if I’m wrong and you truly do believe that the Church teaches that Mary saves us, then take it from me as a cradle Catholic that the Church teaches no such thing.

There, now your mind can rest at ease. Unless perhaps you, a non-Catholic, refuse to believe myself and others, Catholics, when we tell you what the Church teaches.

So, do you, a non-Catholic, claim to know more about what the Church teaches than do we Catholics? That would be an astonishing claim, although I have met countless non-Catholics who essentially make that exact claim.

I spent over 30 years inside the Catholic church. Born, bred, baptised, confirmed…bonded and sealed Catholic.

I was rescued and saved FROM it.

Amen…

I know a little about it because I, unlike many others have LIVED it, been LOST in the wilderness…then was FOUND and saved.

 

[VociMike]

I spent over 30 years inside the Catholic church. Born, bred, baptised, confirmed…bonded and sealed Catholic.

I was rescued and saved FROM it.

Amen…

I know a little about it because I, unlike many others have LIVED it, been LOST in the wilderness…then was FOUND and saved.

Yes, your attitude is very typical of the ex-Catholics who come here.

Now to my question. Do you believe the Catholics here when we tell you that the Church does not teach that Mary saves us or anybody?

 

[Annie_B]

With all this discussion and varried opinions, can anyone tell me WHY it is so important that Mary remained a virgin or not? What does it really matter in the long run? Mary was the mother of Jesus, she was a virgin when she conceived and when she gave birth; what else matters?

Annie

 

[VociMike]

With all this discussion and varried opinions, can anyone tell me WHY it is so important that Mary remained a virgin or not? What does it really matter in the long run? Mary was the mother of Jesus, she was a virgin when she conceived and when she gave birth; what else matters?

Annie

It’s only important because it was true, and God entrusted that truth to his Church to be preserved and passed down. That is, it’s important to us because it was apparently important to God.

Other than that we can only speculate. Perhaps if Jesus had other blood brothers and sisters they would have been treated as divine too, and we know that would have been a very bad thing.

And then there’s this question. When is it proper for a woman to bear the children of two different fathers? When the first father dies, certainly, but the Father didn’t die. And perhaps when the first father abandons mother and child. But did the Father ever abandon Mary and Jesus?

 

[FCEGM]

With all this discussion and varried opinions, can anyone tell me WHY it is so important that Mary remained a virgin or not? What does it really matter in the long run? Mary was the mother of Jesus, she was a virgin when she conceived and when she gave birth; what else matters?

Annie

Well, as Mike has already stated, the truth matters. This article does a good explaining the doctrine’s importance:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a82.htm

 

[Michael_G]

With all this discussion and varried opinions, can anyone tell me WHY it is so important that Mary remained a virgin or not? What does it really matter in the long run? Mary was the mother of Jesus, she was a virgin when she conceived and when she gave birth; what else matters?

Annie

Besides being the truth and dating all the way back to early church fathers in those first couple of centuries handed down as sacred oral tradition their are a couple of other factors.

1 Mary’s full devotion, dedication and obedience to God by grace. Hence she becomes the Ark of the New Covenant… Some of the Church fathers have called her the spouse of the Holy Spirit, since it is the Holy Spirit through overshadowing of Mary completly engulfing as the cloud in the OT engulfed the old testament Ark, the Holy Spirit brings about the incarnation of Mary. Some Church fathers call her the spouse of Christ just as the Church is called the spouse of Christ.

Also as a matter of tradition Mary was dedicated to God at the age of three by here mother St Anne and was raised in the temple in communion with God till 16 years. When she was forced because of uncleanliness of mentstration to have to leave the temple. St Joseph was a caregiver though betrothed. But Mary had vows of celibcey just as Priests and nuns today, devoted to God, they are married to the church to Christ…

 

[Michael_G]

She should get no credit for saying Yes to Gods will?

Then eve’s no to God should not have been the fault for all of mankind so that all of creation groaneth

 

[GailMac]

This is another of those “I don’t want to be Catholic” debates I think - people deny what was taught by the Church for 2000 years so as to distance themselves from being confused for Catholic!

I’d rather answer this question with a question: What does it take away from anyone that God could and did preserve Mary’s virginity? Is it so hard to fathom that this might be possible? Surely one’s own person is not harmed a bit in thinking God upholds those who are virgins, or has so much modern cynicism saturated our thinking that we cannot fathom someone CHOOSING VIRGINITY to be pleasing to the LORD?

It was spoken of by the prophets as one of the seven signs of the Messiah, seven signs that were known by the ancient Isrealites and spoken of and longed for from the time they were spoken of by God through the prophets. Isreal awaited His coming and it was known by the average everyday Jew that there would be “signs” when He came. They waited and prayed and prayed and waited. Even they knew that a Virgin would conceive and bear a Son! That’s in the prophet Isaiah.

Look into the Prophet Ezekiel, Chapter 44 and you will find a closed gate - one that will never be opened because God Himself will enter through it! Doesn’t take much imagination to see what is meant. Leastways not for me. But there’s someone who tells it better than I, I dislike quoting people, but here goes: **“The gate which was shut (Ez. 44:2) was her virginity. Through it the Lord God of Isreal entered; through it He advanced into this world from the Virgin’s womb. And, because her virginity was preserved intact, the Virgin’s gate has remained shut forever.” Rufinus: Commentary on the Apostles’ Creed, 9. (5th century) **

I hope this helps the doubting Thomas’ in the thread.

Peace,

Gail

 

[LJN21]

Good points

Unfortunately, I think our ex-Catholic friend has been hurt and blinded over what ever made him leave the Church so many years ago. Hopeful some day he’ll find is way back home.

 

[clh1217]

Yes, your attitude is very typical of the ex-Catholics who come here.

Now to my question. Do you believe the Catholics here when we tell you that the Church does not teach that Mary saves us or anybody?

I believe that the Catholics here do not understand exactly what they have been taught when it comes to Mary and how it is exactly worship they are performing.

Do not take me lightly…she is blessed among women. Respected beyond reproach. She is to be exemplified, and her willingness and openheart sought after.

However, she is given praise, honor and glory that does not belong to her.

Catholics can not attribute their saving grace without her. I did, my family does.

It is understood that without Mary, Jesus would not be here to save.

And, this…this is wrong.