Mary's perpetual virginity

[clh1217]

With all this discussion and varried opinions, can anyone tell me WHY it is so important that Mary remained a virgin or not? What does it really matter in the long run? Mary was the mother of Jesus, she was a virgin when she conceived and when she gave birth; what else matters?

Annie

greetings!

In the longest of runs, no. It does not matter.

However, her PV and alleged sinlessness give Catholics all the reason to praise her, idolize her, …worship her.

She has been given value that would embarrass her at the least, and GRIEVE God at the most…

in the end, her PV is an complete NON-essential.

 

[clh1217]

It’s only important because it was true, and God entrusted that truth to his Church to be preserved and passed down. That is, it’s important to us because it was apparently important to God.

Other than that we can only speculate. Perhaps if Jesus had other blood brothers and sisters they would have been treated as divine too, and we know that would have been a very bad thing.

And then there’s this question. When is it proper for a woman to bear the children of two different fathers? When the first father dies, certainly, but the Father didn’t die. And perhaps when the first father abandons mother and child. But did the Father ever abandon Mary and Jesus?

There is absolutely NO WAY on this planet that you can factually say this is true. Pieces have been put together that do not fit and “they” call it true.

Why can’t you just accept what scripture says, match it with the language and culture and know that there are actual brothers and sisters with Mary.

Why would the other brothers and sisters be treated as “divine”? That makes zero sense. Mary was NOT divine. The children that she and Joseph bore were sinners in need of a savior just like you and me…

Their is the question of why did God allow Mary…to marry?

Is God NOT God? Could He not have protected her from shame and ridicule? Why would He allow Joseph to be a pawn and deny him a true wife?

 

[clh1217]

Besides being the truth and dating all the way back to early church fathers in those first couple of centuries handed down as sacred oral tradition their are a couple of other factors.

1 Mary’s full devotion, dedication and obedience to God by grace. Hence she becomes the Ark of the New Covenant… Some of the Church fathers have called her the spouse of the Holy Spirit, since it is the Holy Spirit through overshadowing of Mary completly engulfing as the cloud in the OT engulfed the old testament Ark, the Holy Spirit brings about the incarnation of Mary. Some Church fathers call her the spouse of Christ just as the Church is called the spouse of Christ.

Also as a matter of tradition Mary was dedicated to God at the age of three by here mother St Anne and was raised in the temple in communion with God till 16 years. When she was forced because of uncleanliness of mentstration to have to leave the temple. St Joseph was a caregiver though betrothed. But Mary had vows of celibcey just as Priests and nuns today, devoted to God, they are married to the church to Christ…

Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, “But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, ‘they hated Me without a cause.’”

He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, “and to those who were selling the doves He said, “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a house of merchandise.” His disciples remembered that it was written, ‘Zeal for Thy house will consume me.’”

Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.

To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9,

“Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5 O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6 May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face.*** 8 I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mother’s sons. ***9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me.”

This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says,

*“Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets.” *

God’s will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.

Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?

 

[clh1217]

I’d rather answer this question with a question: What does it take away from anyone that God could and did preserve Mary’s virginity? Is it so hard to fathom that this might be possible? Surely one’s own person is not harmed a bit in thinking God upholds those who are virgins, or has so much modern cynicism saturated our thinking that we cannot fathom someone CHOOSING VIRGINITY to be pleasing to the LORD?

Gail

Number one…what does it take away?

It takes away God’s GLORY and gets transferred to another sinner in need of a savior.

No, it is not hard to fathom that God COULD…but why WOULD He?

He brought our SAVIOR into this world in the most humble of ways…why ADD to the scripture that she was a sinless woman, and why ADD to the scripture that she was an ever-virgin?

Mary’s status of being sinless and a PV takes away from Christ…end of story.

 

[clh1217]

Good points

Unfortunately, I think our ex-Catholic friend has been hurt and blinded over what ever made him leave the Church so many years ago. Hopeful some day he’ll find is way back home.

“Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?” Yes, He was.

John 7:5 says
“For not even His brothers were believing in Him.” *

Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both
“my brothers” and “my mother’s sons.” *

Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings?

Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that “brothers” must mean “cousins.”

But, if that is the case, then when we read “an alien to my mother’s sons” we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.

It is sad to see the Roman Catholic Church go to such lengths to maintain Mary’s virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.

If you think the Catholic Church is ““home””, once again, you are selling God short…and your salvation.

Please, repent, give God the Glory…and praise Him for paving your pathway to our real HOME.

 

[LilyM]

I believe that the Catholics here do not understand exactly what they have been taught when it comes to Mary and how it is exactly worship they are performing.

Do not take me lightly…she is blessed among women. Respected beyond reproach. She is to be exemplified, and her willingness and openheart sought after.

However, she is given praise, honor and glory that does not belong to her.

Catholics can not attribute their saving grace without her. I did, my family does.

It is understood that without Mary, Jesus would not be here to save.

And, this…this is wrong.

She gave birth to Jesus, for crying out loud. It is quite correct to say that without her He would not be here.

To say that we CANNOT attribute saving grace without her is wrong. We acknowledge that God is the only source of all saving grace and could have become human and achieved all that flowed from that in any way He saw fit. But He chose to do so in one particular way, ie through Mary, and that choice is a meaningful, not a haphazard, one.

To say that we DO not attribute it without her is correct. It is to do no more than He did. It is to acknowledge His own choice to use her as a vehicle through which to accomplish these things.

 

[clh1217]

She gave birth to Jesus, for crying out loud. It is quite correct to say that without her He would not be here.

To say that we CANNOT attribute saving grace without her is wrong. We acknowledge that God is the only source of all saving grace and could have become human and achieved all that flowed from that in any way He saw fit. But He chose to do so in one particular way, ie through Mary, and that choice is a meaningful, not a haphazard, one.

To say that we DO not attribute it without her is correct. It is to do no more than He did. It is to acknowledge His own choice to use her as a vehicle through which to accomplish these things.

God also says that if we do not praise Him…the ROCKS would cry out.

Do you NOT THINK there was any other way than to have a woman bring Jesus into the world.

If it wasn’t Mary…it would have been something or someone else.

You are RIGHT…it was HIS CHOICE to USE Mary…

NOT HERS.

He didn’t ask her.

He should get all the glory for choosing her. Not her accepting.

 

[LJN21]

God also says that if we do not praise Him…the ROCKS would cry out.

Do you NOT THINK there was any other way than to have a woman bring Jesus into the world.

If it wasn’t Mary…it would have been something or someone else.

You are RIGHT…it was HIS CHOICE to USE Mary…

NOT HERS.

He didn’t ask her.

He should get all the glory for choosing her. Not her accepting.

Your limiting Gods power. If he wanted to Jesus could have just appeared. Mary, however is an important part of the deal, if she wasn’t necessary in some small way to the story of our salvation why would she even be named?

 

[VociMike]

There is absolutely NO WAY on this planet that you can factually say this is true. Pieces have been put together that do not fit and “they” call it true.

There is absolutely NO WAY on this planet that you can factually say that Jesus was God Incarnate, but that doesn’t stop you from believing based on the authority you acknowledge resides in Scripture. Same with Catholics, but we extend that authority, properly, to the Church and the entire deposit of faith which she received and which she guards.

Why can’t you just accept what scripture says, match it with the language and culture and know that there are actual brothers and sisters with Mary.

Scripture doesn’t say Mary had other children. Why can’t you accept that?

Why would the other brothers and sisters be treated as “divine”? That makes zero sense. Mary was NOT divine. The children that she and Joseph bore were sinners in need of a savior just like you and me…

It’s a conjecture. You can accept it or not. I make no claims as to its truth, not being able to read the mind of God or see alternate futures. The fact that you dismiss it out of hand just shows how determined you are not to rethink your own position (which is your prerogotive, of course).

 

[LJN21]

Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?

The Bible and Jewish custom says no as well. So did all of Christendom, including the “reformers”. If its your message about Mary is so true why would the Holy Spirit take 1700+ years and have it revealed by Joe Shmoe from the First Church of God.

 

[clh1217]

Your limiting Gods power. If he wanted to Jesus could have just appeared. Mary, however is an important part of the deal, if she wasn’t necessary in some small way to the story of our salvation why would she even be named?

Ahhaaha. I am limiting His power???

Are you kidding me?

You are telling the world that our Lord came into this world by a SINLESS woman who carried ON her sinlessness and PV for the rest of her life and she had to be so good that she was assumed??

All of this because she was the vessel for Christ to come?

Would it NOT be more powerful for God to allow God to bring the Savior of the WORLD via a poor sinner girl, who had doubts, …one who was unwed and worried?

Is it not a more powerful testimony that Mary had children with her husband in a culturally correct family and that the siblings of Jesus did not even believe who He was for a season??

Which God is MORE powerful…?

Yours that requires PERFECTION from the woman? Or one that makes PERFECTION from the woman?

You give Mary the credit for saying YES.

I give God the GLORY for choosing her.

Huge difference.

 

[clh1217]

There is absolutely NO WAY on this planet that you can factually say that Jesus was God Incarnate, but that doesn’t stop you from believing based on the authority you acknowledge resides in Scripture.

I take it on faith because I believe that ALL scripture is God breathed.

Same with Catholics, but we extend that authority, properly, to the Church and the entire deposit of faith which she received and which she guards.

that sounds really really good and cool. But what you believe is NOT scripture, and is NOT God breathed. Therefore it is a tradition made by men, for men…

I choose God over that.

Scripture doesn’t say Mary had other children. Why can’t you accept that?

Good grief…scripture CLEARLY points out in several places that Mary had other children. WHY can’t you accept that?

It’s a conjecture. You can accept it or not. I make no claims as to its truth, not being able to read the mind of God or see alternate futures. The fact that you dismiss it out of hand just shows how determined you are not to rethink your own position (which is your prerogotive, of course).

and the same back to you, thank you.

 

[LilyM]

God also says that if we do not praise Him…the ROCKS would cry out.

Do you NOT THINK there was any other way than to have a woman bring Jesus into the world.

If it wasn’t Mary…it would have been something or someone else.

You are RIGHT…it was HIS CHOICE to USE Mary…

NOT HERS.

He didn’t ask her.

He should get all the glory for choosing her. Not her accepting.

??? How does the fact that we acknowledge that He chose to give her the graces fitting for a woman who was to be His mother give her any undue glory?

When you win a sports race or get a good score on a test, how is it taking away from God’s glory to say ‘I won this race’ or ‘I got a good score on this test’? Of course you couldn’t have done it without God, but you still did it, didn’t you? Because even though it was through God’s grace and help, you had the free will to reject that grace and that help.

 

[VociMike]

I believe that the Catholics here do not understand exactly what they have been taught when it comes to Mary and how it is exactly worship they are performing.

We do not understand exactly what we have been taught? But you, ex-Catholic, do understand exactly. That’s convenient for your side.

So, since we claim salvation does not derive from Mary, and we do not understand what we have been taught, then apparently the Church is unable to teach her children a fundamental tenet of salvation. You would think the Church would consider that a problem, and redouble her efforts to teach Catholics that salvation does flow from Mary. And yet the Church doesn’t do so. Wonder why not. Wonder why she’s content to let us live in such fundamental error.

Do not take me lightly…she is blessed among women. Respected beyond reproach. She is to be exemplified, and her willingness and openheart sought after.

However, she is given praise, honor and glory that does not belong to her.

Are you the judge of what praise, honor and glory belongs to her? Once more, how convenient for your side.

Catholics can not attribute their saving grace without her. I did, my family does.

I don’t even know what that means.

It is understood that without Mary, Jesus would not be here to save.

And, this…this is wrong.

Ah, here is where you get the teaching wrong. As though God crossed his fingers and hoped Mary would consent. Where might you find that in the Catechism?

True, we rejoice that she did consent, just as we rejoice when any person follows the will of God. But that is not to say that we imagine she had God over a barrel. That’s just silly, and whatever else it may be, Catholic theology isn’t silly.

But you are clearly determined to believe the worst about any and every Catholic teaching. Perhaps to justify your own leaving of the Church, I don’t know.

BTW, this is a bit off topic, but what do you think of Chick tracts? Do you read them? Recommend them? Pass them out? I’m just curious.

 

[clh1217]

The Bible and Jewish custom says no as well. So did all of Christendom, including the “reformers”. If its your message about Mary is so true why would the Holy Spirit take 1700+ years and have it revealed by Joe Shmoe form the First Church of God with no historical biblical training?

People became FREE from the persecution of the Church to hold to the “you must believe with docility”.

Scripture also became readily available…

The Holy Spirit speaks through scripture. God’s word…

NOT through tradition made by men for men to somehow reach God.

God came to us…within scripture, and His "W"ord.

People are no longer under the total dictator ship of Rome and have realized that God actually SPEAKS to them. Actually speaks to them personally via scripture without the Host of ROME tagging along.

Amen!

 

[VociMike]

Good grief…scripture CLEARLY points out in several places that Mary had other children. WHY can’t you accept that?

Why would I accept an assertion that isn’t true? And that Luther and Calvin and who knows what other Reformers also would not accept as true? How did they happen to get it wrong?

 

[clh1217]

??? How does the fact that we acknowledge that He chose to give her the graces fitting for a woman who was to be His mother give her any undue glory?

When you win a sports race or get a good score on a test, how is it taking away from God’s glory to say ‘I won this race’ or ‘I got a good score on this test’? Of course you couldn’t have done it without God, but you still did it, didn’t you? Because even though it was through God’s grace and help, you had the free will to reject that grace and that help.

Because you give Mary the PRAISE.

If I won the raise and someone says PRAISE YOU!! You helped us WIN!

I say NO WAY…Praise God…HE gave me the strength!

this concept is exited from the Catholic mindset.

It took me over 10 years to finally learn that…it was hard to let that go.

I am a better person for it now…

 

[VociMike]

Because you give Mary the PRAISE.

If I won the raise and someone says PRAISE YOU!! You helped us WIN!

I say NO WAY…Praise God…HE gave me the strength!

You contradict yourself. First you give Mary praise for cooperating with the grace of God:

she is blessed among women. Respected beyond reproach. She is to be exemplified, and her willingness and openheart sought after.

Then you criticize us for giving her praise for cooperating with the grace of God. An outsider might think you’re applying a double standard.

 

[clh1217]

We do not understand exactly what we have been taught? But you, ex-Catholic, do understand exactly. That’s convenient for your side.

I …guess?

So, since we claim salvation does not derive from Mary, and we do not understand what we have been taught, then apparently the Church is unable to teach her children a fundamental tenet of salvation.

That would be part of my point.

You would think the Church would consider that a problem, and redouble her efforts to teach Catholics that salvation does flow from Mary.

And yet the Church doesn’t do so. Wonder why not. Wonder why she’s content to let us live in such fundamental error.

Are you going to tell me that you do NOT believe that She is the “ark”? She is NOT co-redemptrix???

then it is YOU who disagrees with the church…She is the vessel that salvation flows {so says the CC}. You pray “TO” her, as if the veil was never torn…

Are you the judge of what praise, honor and glory belongs to her?

no, but God is…and He has commanded that ALL praise, honor and Glory is HIS!!

Once more, how convenient for your side.

I guess…

I don’t even know what that means.

I am very sorry that you do not understand what your "C"hurch teaches about where your salvation comes from.

Ah, here is where you get the teaching wrong. As though God crossed his fingers and hoped Mary would consent. Where might you find that in the Catechism?

I do not follow the Catechism…

But you are clearly determined to believe the worst about any and every Catholic teaching. Perhaps to justify your own leaving of the Church, I don’t know.

oh no…not at all!!

Just the ones that are so unscriptural that the issue steals praise, honor and glory away from our God!

BTW, this is a bit off topic, but what do you think of Chick tracts? Do you read them? Recommend them? Pass them out? I’m just curious.

Chick is ****.

His total disrespect and misrepresentation of any and everything stinks. I don’t touch them.

 

[clh1217]

You contradict yourself. First you give Mary praise for cooperating with the grace of God:

Then you criticize us for giving her praise for cooperating with the grace of God. An outsider might think you’re applying a double standard.

No, I praise God for HER willingness…He created her by the way.