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LJN21
Guest
If thats true how do you know you even have the right Bible? The Catholic Church Wrote and kept the bible for 1700 years, if the Holy Spirit abandoned the Church theres no reason it couldn’t be corrupt.
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clh1217
Guest
So, are you telling me that you totally disregard what scripture says?
If so, I am sorry.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Pardon me, but I believe, clh1217, that VociMike asked you three questions.
You did not respond to any of the three.
Instead, you posed a ‘loaded’ question and then attempted to play the ‘I’m sorry you’re so wrong’ card.
In a debate forum, good manners would predicate that you would either respond to questions you were asked, or else say, straight out, that you could/would not answer. It is not considered good etiquette–or good argumentative strategy–to disregard questions in order to pose thinly veiled slurs or ‘counter questions’ instead of answering legitimate questions.
Please answer VociMike’s questions (and I know you saw them because you ‘referenced’ them in your post) before ‘countering’ them with your own questions.
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clh1217
Guest
Oh no…you did not just say that? LOL.
I can’t believe you are stealing God’s GLORY in giving us ALL the bible…
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clh1217
Guest
I do not know why?
What is the “not true” assertion?
I honestly do not care what Luther or Calvin thought…
I go by scripture.
How did they get it wrong…
I have NOT studied Luther nor Calvin’s ways.
“HOW” they got anything ““wrong”” not sure.
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RobHom
Guest
“clh”…I take note of the fact that you completely ignored what I posted earlier…and that you did precisely what I foretold you would do…
Sorry sport…your pendantic and immature claims of this and that don’t hold water. And your absolute “reliance” on the Bible as the “be all to end all” will be the fall of your soul.
Frankly…I don’t believe you are a “former” Catholic…more likely a pretender…
Don’t mislead yourself into believing that your not responding to me with “specious” one-liners bothers me in the least…it just goes to prove you are holding a “blivit” in a death grip.
Is it because you cannot refute facts…stemming from minds superior to yours where “Biblical issues” are concerned? Our is it that your mindset is attuned to a goose-stepping routine?“clh”…Actually…in ancient Greek… “brother” is “adelfos o” . Source: kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon But then again, what do the Greeks themselves know…right? Your spelling of the word “cousin” in ancient Greek fails the test. Got another shot at it?
The thing that I find most interesting…is your pedantic and obsessive claims about the Bible…yet you can’t answer simple questions about it without obfuscating. But then again…thats the general course of it all when “you guys” show up.
As to Mary’s Perpetual Virginity…here is a direct link to the writings of the principal founders of the Reformation and their take on the issue. Oh, I realize that you will fall back into your “sola scriptura” fire-drill, and while at the same time attempting to rail at all the “traditions” of the Catholic Church…you “WORSHIP” a man made tradition called “sola scriptura”… But thats ok, because through it all…and with your immense intelligence and acumen…you know more than the very founders of your belief system. Here’s a direct link to what they had to say about Mary’s Perpetual Virginity: davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm
But the real kicker is…you aren’t even using a “real Bible”. Not unless it stems directly from the Catholic Church. Otherwise, your bible is merely one of the politically or otherwise mutated versions of what was.
Perhaps you might be interested in reading a real “Bible”…here’s a free link where you can read the entire book as it is properly written and translated: drbo.org/ Oh, and it has all 73 books in it…so you won’t have to worry about your “condensed version” anymore.
And if you actually want to learn about what we Catholics actually believe…as opposed to the more than likely blatant lies, disinformation, or propaganda you have been fed…go here: usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm or here: catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/
Some additional information for your education: scripturecatholic.com/
Was the real “Bible” really originally written in Greek? Here’s someone who disagrees with you: v-a.com/bible/
There is no doubt about the significance of the material itself from an American cultural perspective, the US being predominantly a Judeo-Christian culture. However, the Christian theological establishment has decreed that Greek is the “original” language of the NEW TESTAMENT, despite the existence of voluminous proof that the Gospels were written in Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke and the language of the Biblical lands at the time. My preliminary consideration of this project presents the obvious fact that of the thousands of poetic verses in the Bible, none rhyme in Greek or any other language and yet all rhyme in Aramaic. Surely to consider this coincidence is preposterous.
The above comes from this page: v-a.com/bible/aramaic.html
Did someone tell you the Bible was written in Greek? Or did you come to this conclusion after actually seeing and translating the original documents?
My Bible…which just happens to be a “Catholic Bible” was translated from the ORIGINAL LANGUAGES. Note the plurality of the languages.
Now…a question for you: Do you honestly believe that possibly illiterate or semi-literate fishermen in Galilee could speak not only Hebrew, Aramaic…but Greek as well??
Oh, in the possible event that you find my “tone” not to your pleasure…just realize that I am responding to “your tone”.
Sorry sport…your pendantic and immature claims of this and that don’t hold water. And your absolute “reliance” on the Bible as the “be all to end all” will be the fall of your soul.
Frankly…I don’t believe you are a “former” Catholic…more likely a pretender…
Don’t mislead yourself into believing that your not responding to me with “specious” one-liners bothers me in the least…it just goes to prove you are holding a “blivit” in a death grip.
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LJN21
Guest
Again you did not answer the question and more deflection and insults.
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RobHom
Guest
“clh”…it seems that you ignore a great deal and just want to hang your entire argument on “your opinion”,…which I’m sorry to say, is very sad.
You ask questions…and yet refuse the answers because they don’t fit your agenda…
I’m not buying your line or argument in the least.
My only other question to you is: If you are so unhappy where the Catholic Church, Catholics and Catholic beliefs are concerned… why are you here?
You ask questions…and yet refuse the answers because they don’t fit your agenda…
You speak about the Virgin Mary in the context that “you and your family worshiped her”…that leads me to believe that you are most certainly a “pretender” and not a “former” Catholic. I say that as “CRADLE Catholic” who attended Catechism as well as Parochial Schools… I was NEVER taught to do that! Now why would that be?Yo, “clh”…Here’s one that will “wrinkle” your thought processes:
goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7068.asp This writer, a Greek Orthodox Reverend (Priest) writes the article, and whats interesting in it is this:
WOW!!!
A little more from the same link:
WOW!!! Golly jeepers!!! And he’s not even a "C"atholic!!
WOW, again!!!
Here’s some more WOW!!!
Remember…the writer is a religious man of the cloth, but not a Catholic… SO, this leads me to the thought that your opinions are just that, nothing more… right? You should read the entire article…especially what is pointed out about the KJV…kind of makes it clear that its “unreliable”.
The quoted information came from this site:
goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7068.asp
Copyright: © 1990-1996 Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
I’m not buying your line or argument in the least.
My only other question to you is: If you are so unhappy where the Catholic Church, Catholics and Catholic beliefs are concerned… why are you here?
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clh1217
Guest
count yourself as brilliant.
Frankly…I don’t care what you believe about me.Don’t mislead yourself into believing that your not responding to me with “specious” one-liners bothers me in the least…it just goes to prove you are holding a “blivit” in a death grip.
And your posted quotations?
I will NOT dignify ridiculous staements such as this:
the entire posts validity went south with that statement.
Then there was this jewel…
I lived it friends. I was NO scholar. I will admit…but I don’t need to be led to a catechism.
Don’t talk to me about using “the real bible”…then lead me tot he Catechism…
lol!
That doesn’t EVEN deserve a response.
As far as my “one liners” go…
common sense doesn’t NEED to bloviate.
Just say it…
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clh1217
Guest
Do you NOT understand what a massive insult Catholics hurl to real Christians around the globe when you specify…
Catholics gave the world the bible?
That is a slap in GOD’s face…and it hurts even me.
How can you not see that…
You are stealing glory…
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clh1217
Guest
Sorry you feel this way…
why am I here…
TO MAKE YOU THINK!
The Catholic Church tells you what to read, think and say…
You say you were NEVER taught to do that…
I say you are hoodwinked…
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RobHom
Guest
At this point I would interject the following comment: What “clh1217” is doing is simply running with the “standard radical evangelical gameplan”…fire off questions, make brash statements, ignore responses, dodge questions, respond with questions to questions, then when all else fails resort to obfuscation… Its all that he or she can do.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
God gave the world the Bible, true.
And how did He do just that?
He used men. Men who wrote what God wanted us to know, guided by the Holy Spirit.
Now, God COULD have used, when it came to writers for the New Testament, any men he wanted. He could have imported Buddhists. He could have used pagans.
And He could have inspired men of any religion to ‘come together’ to determine what of all the many religious writings (and there were many of the same time period of the New Testament Scripture that have not been judged to be ‘The Bible’) at any time. After all, with very few people able to read, and with no materials available for cheap books and no way to produce cheap books until the 15th century and later, God certainly could have ‘waited’ until the ‘glorious reformation’ and had Protestants put together ‘the Bible’ then. Most people had only ‘heard’ Scripture their lives long, never read it, and were still perfectly good Christians.
But. . .He didn’t.
The men whom **He chose **to declare the Scripture He wanted written were . . .Catholics. Catholic Christians (in the time the Bible gained its canon there were no ‘other’ Christians to be found).
You can bloviate all you want, but God ‘willed’ His Scripture of the New Testament to be written by, and ‘determined’ (for the world) by: Catholic Christians.
For His Glory.
You claim that we ‘deny God’ by mentioning the undeniable fact that His Written Word was determined, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, by His own Catholic Church He founded.
I claim that you are attempting to ‘deny God’ yourself by wilfully refusing to acknowledge God’s instruments and attempting to ‘teach’ against God’s own Scripture (which tells us the Church is the pillar and guide of all truth, not Scripture itself) and to deny God’s authority through His Church.
And how did He do just that?
He used men. Men who wrote what God wanted us to know, guided by the Holy Spirit.
Now, God COULD have used, when it came to writers for the New Testament, any men he wanted. He could have imported Buddhists. He could have used pagans.
And He could have inspired men of any religion to ‘come together’ to determine what of all the many religious writings (and there were many of the same time period of the New Testament Scripture that have not been judged to be ‘The Bible’) at any time. After all, with very few people able to read, and with no materials available for cheap books and no way to produce cheap books until the 15th century and later, God certainly could have ‘waited’ until the ‘glorious reformation’ and had Protestants put together ‘the Bible’ then. Most people had only ‘heard’ Scripture their lives long, never read it, and were still perfectly good Christians.
But. . .He didn’t.
The men whom **He chose **to declare the Scripture He wanted written were . . .Catholics. Catholic Christians (in the time the Bible gained its canon there were no ‘other’ Christians to be found).
You can bloviate all you want, but God ‘willed’ His Scripture of the New Testament to be written by, and ‘determined’ (for the world) by: Catholic Christians.
For His Glory.
You claim that we ‘deny God’ by mentioning the undeniable fact that His Written Word was determined, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, by His own Catholic Church He founded.
I claim that you are attempting to ‘deny God’ yourself by wilfully refusing to acknowledge God’s instruments and attempting to ‘teach’ against God’s own Scripture (which tells us the Church is the pillar and guide of all truth, not Scripture itself) and to deny God’s authority through His Church.
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RobHom
Guest
No need to feel sorry for me.Sorry you feel this way…
Gee, and you don’t even know me…and already you’re inside my head…
First…you’re failing to make me “think”. You’ve offered absolutely nothing provocative enough to cause me to “think”… You’ve not said anything I haven’t heard before…and nothing you’ve said has stood the test. You’re much like the Greek mythological character who was doomed to spend his eternity pushing a boulder up a mountain, over and over, and over again.
The Catholic Church has NEVER told me what to read, think or say. What the Catholic Church taught me was that I have complete free will and can choose to do whatever I wish. I believe it was you who has been misled.
I will say this though… In my coming back to that Catholic Church after an absence…I have found that the one thing that people like you do…is actually reinforce my beliefs that the Church is correct, and that it is the “One True Church” that Christ created when he gave the Keys to St. Peter. The harder people like you argue…its clear to me that your motives are not good.
Thank you!!
Did you bother to actually read any of the information I gave you links to? Or are you just so well indoctrinated that you are not capable of actually reading clear facts?
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LilyM
Guest
Apart from all of which, of course, God could’ve just beamed down a nice red-letter leather-bound KJV direct from heaven. Point is God DOES use humans as a critical part of His plan, both in writing the Bible and in forming, guiding and teaching His Church. The Bible isn’t the be-all and end-all in itself, since the Church existed for many decades before the Bible was even written, let alone its canon set.
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RobHom
Guest
No need to feel sorry for me.Sorry you feel this way…
Gee, and you don’t even know me…and already you’re inside my head…
First…you’re failing to make me “think”. You’ve offered absolutely nothing provocative enough to cause me to “think”… You’ve not said anything I haven’t heard before…and nothing you’ve said has stood the test. You’re much like the Greek mythological character who was doomed to spend his eternity pushing a boulder up a mountain, over and over, and over again.
The Catholic Church has NEVER told me what to read, think or say. What the Catholic Church taught me was that I have complete free will and can choose to do whatever I wish. I believe it was you who has been misled.
I will say this though… In my coming back to that Catholic Church after an absence…I have found that the one thing that people like you do…is actually reinforce my beliefs that the Church is correct, and that it is the “One True Church” that Christ created when he gave the Keys to St. Peter. The harder people like you argue…its clear to me that your motives are not good.
Thank you!!
Did you bother to actually read any of the information I gave you links to? Or are you just so well indoctrinated that you are not capable of actually reading clear facts?
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clh1217
Guest
great so far…
This is not right.
maybe 'c’atholic. This I will accept. But, not "C"atholic.
There were Christians. No tag needed.
amen!
I am NOT "“C”"atholic…however I am in HIS CHURCH??
how can that be?
I am doing no such thing.
We are all God’s instraments…
I am sorry you are denying the entirety of Christ’s church…I wouldn’t feel right doing that.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
How sad. First, you are unjustly accusing me of something I have not done --I have never denied the ‘entirety of Christ’s Church’ in my life. In fact, I’ve upheld it for decades.
Second, you say you ‘wouldn’t feel right denying the entirety of Christ’s Church’ yet you yourself have denied it in your posts, over and over and over.
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clh1217
Guest
NEVER once have I thought, nor said you were NOT saved, nor in Christ’s church…
NEVER.
I am going to say that the "C"atholic church is NOT the church that Christ founded.
ALL saved people are Christians and are apart of Christ’s CHURCH…even if they are NOT under ROMES RULE.
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RobHom
Guest
Just because I’m right…doesn’t mean I’m “brilliant”…but thanks anyway for the compliment.
What I’m seeing here, quite frankly is someone…you…trying desperately to sitting on a three legged stool that only has two legs.
I expect that soon you will begin with the “ad hominem” attack routine…that after all is the normal progression, right?
Insofar as the “Bible” is concerned…your knowledge regarding which is the valid one appears quite lacking…unless you are using one that stems from the Catholic Church. Thats just a simple fact. All others are politically or agenda mutations…pure and simple. Sorry.
Tis thee needing to think, nay?
In re “bloviate”…are complex compound sentences taxing?
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