Mary's Perpetual Virginity

[GaryTaylor]

lol,Marys Perpetual Viginity has been so often discussed is now is a Search=Copy/Paste exercise. Yup, you quickly become introduced to every BIblical verse relevant.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Johnny do you have kids? Do you ever leave and tell them to be good and behave for their mother until you get home? Does that mean that when you get home they can destroy the house and misbehave?

Well I have a pug, does he count? I treat him like one…but no human children. I appreciate everyone who posted some kind handling of the verse I cited. It was always the one hang up I had with this doctrine.

 

[rev_kevin]

She had other children. This has been discussed many times before. Some say she remained a virgin and some say she didn’t. Some say the brothers mentioned are cousins but the word they will point out has many meanings one is cousins, kinsmen, relative and blood brothers, they just pick the one out that will say Mary remained a virgin.

Others will point to what Mary said to Angel Gabrial “How can this be, since I do not known a man.” They seem to say this is proof that Mary remained a virgin all her life.
Here Mary is simply saying, “I haven’t been with a man yet so how could I get pregnant.”
Look at Matthew 2:25 which simply says, “But she remained a virgin until her son was born.” He this verse is saying she did not have relations or intercourse with Joseph while she was pregnant but after Jesus was born, her and Joseph had a normal marriage, had intercourse and had other children.

Some will point to Luke 2:36-38 saying that “she was to marry the older Joseph, a widower, who was to be her protector.” I have looked at 4 different Bibles and not a one say that she was to marry the older Joseph, a widower, who was to be her protector. Anna was widow of about 40. Out of 4 Bibles only one mentions Mary and Joseph and it says, “She came along just as Simeon was talking to Mary and Joseph, and she began praising God. She talked about Jesus to everyone who had been waiting for the promised King to come and deliver Jerusalem.”

 

[agent_grey]

Language changes, Culture changes and therefor by natural consequence the meaning of ancient scripture changes. This scientific fact destroys modern biblical innerancy which leaves me in a strange spot by no fault of my own.

To me it is simple. If the Holy spirit went into Mother Mary and concieved a child then then the Holy Spirit is mother Mary’s spouse.

I believe by faith and faith alone that this is a historical fact.

The question then that is asked is did Mother Mary commit adultery. I say no!

 

[rev_kevin]

Language changes, Culture changes and therefor by natural consequence the meaning of ancient scripture changes. This scientific fact destroys modern biblical innerancy which leaves me in a strange spot by no fault of my own.

To me it is simple. If the Holy spirit went into Mother Mary and concieved a child then then the Holy Spirit is mother Mary’s spouse.

I believe by faith and faith alone that this is a historical fact.

The question then that is asked is did Mother Mary commit adultery. I say no!

How can one marry a spirit?
Ok now if the HS was Mary’s spouse and Mary married Joseph wouldn’t that be polygamy? So you are suggesting Mary is a polygamist.

 

[Reuben_J]

She had other children. This has been discussed many times before. Some say she remained a virgin and some say she didn’t. Some say the brothers mentioned are cousins but the word they will point out has many meanings one is cousins, kinsmen, relative and blood brothers, they just pick the one out that will say Mary remained a virgin.

Others will point to what Mary said to Angel Gabrial “How can this be, since I do not known a man.” They seem to say this is proof that Mary remained a virgin all her life.
Here Mary is simply saying, “I haven’t been with a man yet so how could I get pregnant.”
Look at Matthew 2:25 which simply says, “But she remained a virgin until her son was born.” He this verse is saying she did not have relations or intercourse with Joseph while she was pregnant but after Jesus was born, her and Joseph had a normal marriage, had intercourse and had other children.

Some will point to Luke 2:36-38 saying that “she was to marry the older Joseph, a widower, who was to be her protector.” I have looked at 4 different Bibles and not a one say that she was to marry the older Joseph, a widower, who was to be her protector. Anna was widow of about 40. Out of 4 Bibles only one mentions Mary and Joseph and it says, “She came along just as Simeon was talking to Mary and Joseph, and she began praising God. She talked about Jesus to everyone who had been waiting for the promised King to come and deliver Jerusalem.”

Also some say James the Bishop of Jerusalem who was supposed to be Jesus brother allowed his mother (Mary) to be taken by John to Ephesus and did nothing about it. And Jude, and the rest too. One might wonder why; if they were believers they would have believed that the fourth Commandment commanded them to honor their mother. Letting her taken by someone else to take care of her would be hardly honoring her.

The same brothers and sisters did not attend Jesus funeral too. The Bible says nothing about it. So much as to what kind of siblings that Jesus had. So much also that can be reflected on the quality of the parenting that Joseph and Mary had on their children.

Seem to me Jesus family can hardly are the Holy Family and the exemplary family that I want to know but perhaps I was wrong all this while.

 

[rev_kevin]

Also some say James the Bishop of Jerusalem who was supposed to be Jesus brother allowed his mother (Mary) to be taken by John to Ephesus and did nothing about it. And Jude, and the rest too. One might wonder why; if they were believers they would have believed that the fourth Commandment commanded them to honor their mother. Letting her taken by someone else to take care of her would be hardly honoring her.

The same brothers and sisters did not attend Jesus funeral too. The Bible says nothing about it. So much as to what kind of siblings that Jesus had. So much also that can be reflected on the quality of the parenting that Joseph and Mary had on their children.

Seem to me Jesus family can hardly are the Holy Family and the exemplary family that I want to know but perhaps I was wrong all this while.

Where is this documented?

What did Jesus say when he was told that his mother, and brothers wanted to see him. " Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? Every one here are my mothers and brothers." Now if you were Jesus’ brothers and you heard him say that, how would you feel about him?
Its obvious Jesus didn’t go by blood parents or blood sibblings.Everyone was his mothers and brothers. So for him to give his mother to someone else is not supprising.

His brothers and sisters may not have known Jesus was dead. It don’t say where they were living. Remember there were no phones, no mail system like we have, no E-mails, no texting. So they may not have found out about his death until after he assended into heaven.

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by rev kevin
She had other children. This has been discussed many times before. Some say she remained a virgin and some say she didn’t. Some say the brothers mentioned are cousins but the word they will point out has many meanings one is cousins, kinsmen, relative and blood brothers, they just pick the one out that will say Mary remained a virgin.

Others will point to what Mary said to Angel Gabrial “How can this be, since I do not known a man.” They seem to say this is proof that Mary remained a virgin all her life.
Here Mary is simply saying, “I haven’t been with a man yet so how could I get pregnant.”
Look at Matthew 2:25 which simply says, “But she remained a virgin until her son was born.” He this verse is saying she did not have relations or intercourse with Joseph while she was pregnant but after Jesus was born, her and Joseph had a normal marriage, had intercourse and had other children.

Some will point to Luke 2:36-38 saying that “she was to marry the older Joseph, a widower, who was to be her protector.” I have looked at 4 different Bibles and not a one say that she was to marry the older Joseph, a widower, who was to be her protector. Anna was widow of about 40. Out of 4 Bibles only one mentions Mary and Joseph and it says, “She came along just as Simeon was talking to Mary and Joseph, and she began praising God. She talked about Jesus to everyone who had been waiting for the promised King to come and deliver Jerusalem.”

Mary had other children? Pure conjecture. Based on what? A few names and poor understanding of linguistics. Mary DID NOT have other children. NO WHERE does Scripture state Mary gave birth to other children…no where. How many boys did Mary conceive? Females?

 

[rev_kevin]

Mary had other children? Pure conjecture. Based on what? A few names and poor understanding of linguistics. Mary DID NOT have other children. NO WHERE does Scripture state Mary gave birth to other children…no where. How many boys did Mary conceive? Females?

According to Scripture there were 4 boys and sisters, plural sisters, so its safe to say at least 2 sisters bringing the total to at least 6 + sibblings.

Now where does it say she did not have other children?

There are names in Scripture to at least suggest she had other children. No where does Scripture suggest she remained a virgin all her life.

All you are saying is she didn’t have other children. Nothing to back up what you are saying. Just saying NO don’t make it TRUE.

At least I can give you names of the boys that are in Scripture, but I’m sure you already know the names.

 

[Reuben_J]

Where is this documented?

Its obvious Jesus didn’t go by blood parents or blood sibblings.Everyone was his mothers and brothers. So for him to give his mother to someone else is not supprising.

Thanks for this because this is what we have been trying to do. Jesus gave his mother to someone else because they were his brothers. In this case John the disciple. Then John took her home with him.

I am Jesus brother too and I would like to follow what John the disciple did. If Jesus could give his mother to John because he was his brother; Jesus could do the same for me. John was a good example as he was a disciple and definitely one who Jesus could trust as his follower. If I want to be the one that can be trusted by Jesus then I have to emulate John too. One of the things John did was to bring Jesus’ mother to his home. I could do that by bringing this mother to my home too. Since she is not physically with me, I could do it spiritually. To God, the physical and the spiritual do still make the one person.

His brothers and sisters may not have known Jesus was dead. It don’t say where they were living. Remember there were no phones, no mail system like we have, no E-mails, no texting. So they may not have found out about his death until after he assended into heaven.

May not have known … We all are speculating then.

 

[campeador]

According to Scripture there were 4 boys and sisters, plural sisters, so its safe to say at least 2 sisters bringing the total to at least 6 + sibblings.

Now where does it say she did not have other children?

There are names in Scripture to at least suggest she had other children. No where does Scripture suggest she remained a virgin all her life.

All you are saying is she didn’t have other children. Nothing to back up what you are saying. Just saying NO don’t make it TRUE.

At least I can give you names of the boys that are in Scripture, but I’m sure you already know the names.

You must have missed Erich’s post above, #17. He gives a very good explanation of Jesus’ “brethren”.

“His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas” weren’t his blood brothers at all.

“Mary the mother of James the less, and of Joseph” was the wife of Alphaeus, or, according to St. John, Cleophas, not Jesus’ step father Joseph.

Jude was “a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James”, not brother of Jesus.

Simon, called the Zealot, was also called by St. Mark “Simon the Cananaean” not a Nazarene, like Jesus.

 

[Katoriku_Rant]

There is one part, where Mary asks " How shall this be?"

I’ve heard that that is another proof of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Basically, if she were a normal married Jewish woman, and was told that she was going to be conceiving a son, her response would have been more like…" …uh yeah. I figured that was what Joseph was for…"

This supports the traditions surrounding Mary (someone check if that’s big T tradition…) that she was a temple virgin- the old Jewish equivalent of a nun, chosen to be pure her entire life. That she had been entrusted to the care of Joseph was a matter of necessity, because somebody would have needed to sponsor her, since her parents would have been older and possibly nearer to death at that point. It would also explain Joseph’s distress, because adultery in her case meant not only with another man, but with a man, and he would have been held accountable- because it quite possibly could have been him.

Also, the “brothers” of Jesus could have linguistically meant cousins, or even siblings through his foster father. Tradition also says that Joseph was an old widower when he took care of Mary, so perhaps Jesus’s " siblings" were the grown children from that previous marriage.

 

[Reuben_J]

Where is this documented?

What did Jesus say when he was told that his mother, and brothers wanted to see him. " Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? Every one here are my mothers and brothers." Now if you were Jesus’ brothers and you heard him say that, how would you feel about him?
Its obvious Jesus didn’t go by blood parents or blood sibblings.Everyone was his mothers and brothers. So for him to give his mother to someone else is not supprising.

What is surprising is that these so-called siblings didn’t take their mother back! Disciple John took her home ever since. Even after James became a believer and a leader of the church in Jerusalem (whom many Protestants thought was Jesus’ brother because of Paul saying, James the Lord’s brother), he did not take Mary back with him too. Surprise, surprise.

 

[RedDawgMCM]

In the OT the same word is used to call Abraham Lot’s brother. Now we know from reading the OT that Abraham was his UNCLE. Ergo don’t be so dismissive of this argument.

[BIBLEDRB]Gen 14:14[/BIBLEDRB]

The languages the bible was written in simply didn’t have a word to express a near relation.

She had other children. This has been discussed many times before. Some say she remained a virgin and some say she didn’t. Some say the brothers mentioned are cousins but the word they will point out has many meanings one is cousins, kinsmen, relative and blood brothers, they just pick the one out that will say Mary remained a virgin.

 

[Erich]

rev kevin;7430935:

According to Scripture there were 4 boys and sisters, plural sisters, so its safe to say at least 2 sisters bringing the total to at least 6 + sibblings.

Now where does it say she did not have other children?

There are names in Scripture to at least suggest she had other children. No where does Scripture suggest she remained a virgin all her life.

All you are saying is she didn’t have other children. Nothing to back up what you are saying. Just saying NO don’t make it TRUE.

At least I can give you names of the boys that are in Scripture, but I’m sure you already know the names.

You must have missed Erich’s post above, #17. He gives a very good explanation of Jesus’ “brethren”.

Thanks!

The Bible does tell us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered. So, we need to dig a bit deeper to find them.
Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and *** Salome (emphasis added)
If this Mary, the wife of Cleophas, is the mother of James the less and Joseph, and also of Salome, then Salome could be called a sister of the Christ just as her blood brothers (same mother) could be called brothers of Christ, without being a sibling, right? Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and *** Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
As we can see, in every instance in which a brother or sister of Christ is named, each one can clearly be shown to be a son or daughter of someone other than the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[elvisman]

According to Scripture there were 4 boys and sisters, plural sisters, so its safe to say at least 2 sisters bringing the total to at least 6 + sibblings.

Now where does it say she did not have other children?

There are names in Scripture to at least suggest she had other children. No where does Scripture suggest she remained a virgin all her life.

All you are saying is she didn’t have other children. Nothing to back up what you are saying. Just saying NO don’t make it TRUE.

At least I can give you names of the boys that are in Scripture, but I’m sure you already know the names.

Kevin -
Where does it say that Mary (Jesus’ mother) had other children?
NOWHERE does it say this in ALL of Scripture.

You have been shown on this and many other threads that these so-called siblings were not uterine siblings. I know this because I have shown you this proof many times, yet you persist in saying that they were. You are being dishonest here. However, I’m happy to educate you again on this matter:

You are attempting to prove that Mary had other children and list the names given in the Bible. The names of these adelphoi, James, Joseph (Joses), Jude (Judas) are in Matt. 12:46; Matt. 13:55; Mark 3:31–34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19–20; John 2:12, 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5.

**The “other Mary” at the foot of the cross is described as being the mother of James and Joses and Salome. She is also described as being Mary’s (mother of Jesus) “sister” (adelphe) (John 19:25).

James is elsewhere described as the son of Alphaeus(Matt. 10:3), which would mean this other Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. However, Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas.

What do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?
Matt. 27:56** says,* “…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee”*.**

Mark 15:40** states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome").**

Finally,John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Any attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are squashed by the Bible.

**Bottom line, Kevin - there is FAR more Scriptural evidence in favor of Mary’s perpetual virginity than not.

 

[adrift]

She had other children. This has been discussed many times before. Some say she remained a virgin and some say she didn’t. Some say the brothers mentioned are cousins but the word they will point out has many meanings one is cousins, kinsmen, relative and blood brothers, they just pick the one out that will say Mary remained a virgin.

Post 17 please read.

Others will point to what Mary said to Angel Gabrial “How can this be, since I do not known a man.” They seem to say this is proof that Mary remained a virgin all her life.
Here Mary is simply saying, “I haven’t been with a man yet so how could I get pregnant.”
Look at Matthew 2:25 which simply says, “But she remained a virgin until her son was born.” He this verse is saying she did not have relations or intercourse with Joseph while she was pregnant but after Jesus was born, her and Joseph had a normal marriage, had intercourse and had other children.

That isn’t what she was saying. It makes no sense for her to have said that as she was in the first part of her marriage. Anyone in her position would have assumed that the father would be her husband’s. As been pointed out numerous times, until by definition only means up to a certain point without indicating what happens after that point.

Some will point to Luke 2:36-38 saying that “she was to marry the older Joseph, a widower, who was to be her protector.” I have looked at 4 different Bibles and not a one say that she was to marry the older Joseph, a widower, who was to be her protector. Anna was widow of about 40. Out of 4 Bibles only one mentions Mary and Joseph and it says, “She came along just as Simeon was talking to Mary and Joseph, and she began praising God. She talked about Jesus to everyone who had been waiting for the promised King to come and deliver Jerusalem.”

What was being pointed out to you is that in the culture of the time there was no such thing as a single woman being able to provide for herself. I don’t think anyone ever told you it was in the bible.

 

[campeador]

Thanks!

The Bible does tell us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered. So, we need to dig a bit deeper to find them.
Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and *** Salome (emphasis added)
If this Mary, the wife of Cleophas, is the mother of James the less and Joseph, and also of Salome, then Salome could be called a sister of the Christ just as her blood brothers (same mother) could be called brothers of Christ, without being a sibling, right? Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and *** Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
As we can see, in every instance in which a brother or sister of Christ is named, each one can clearly be shown to be a son or daughter of someone other than the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Interesting! I hadn’t really given Salome much thought, but there is no question that Salome is a woman’s name.

Eaton’s Bible Dictionary gives a slightly different interpretation:
Salome
The wife of Zebedee and mother of James and John (Mat. 27:56), and probably the sister of Mary, the mother of our Lord (John 19:25). She sought for her sons places of honour in Christ’s kingdom (Matt. 20:20, 21; comp. 19:28). She witnessed the crucifixion (Mark 15:40), and was present with the other women at the sepulchre (Matt. 27:56).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

She had other children. This has been discussed many times before. Some say she remained a virgin and some say she didn’t. Some say the brothers mentioned are cousins but the word they will point out has many meanings one is cousins, kinsmen, relative and blood brothers, they just pick the one out that will say Mary remained a virgin.

Hello rev kevin,

It’s been a long time.

I’ve only quoted a part of your quote to give you some food for thought. It appears some will pick out the one that endorses a ‘newer’ thought on the subject. I put marks around newer because those beliefs arose since the reformation even though the main reformers believed Mary remained ever virgin.

Martin Luther

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary’s perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was “born of a woman” alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2

John Calvin

It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was “Holy Virgin”.

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated “brothers” in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

 

[rev_kevin]

You must have missed Erich’s post above, #17. He gives a very good explanation of Jesus’ “brethren”.

“His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas” weren’t his blood brothers at all.

“Mary the mother of James the less, and of Joseph” was the wife of Alphaeus, or, according to St. John, Cleophas, not Jesus’ step father Joseph.

Jude was “a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James”, not brother of Jesus.

Simon, called the Zealot, was also called by St. Mark “Simon the Cananaean” not a Nazarene, like Jesus.

Ya I have read post 17 and don’t buy it.