Mary's perpetual virginity

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JB_Brother_4446 said:
  1. Well one could easily presume that Joseph died of old age
  2. Matthias was probably one of the 72
  3. True.
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  1. yes presume away.
  2. Luke is also assumed by many to have been one of the 72, while being styled by St. Paul as an Apostle
It almost sounds like we have a truce! šŸ˜‰
 
Good_Fella said:
Jesus wasnā€™t one of the twelve no more than Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, and Silvanus were, but the latter four are called apostles in the NT. Or havenā€™t you read?

"Consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confessionā€ (Heb.3:1).

The word ā€˜apostleā€™ means ā€œone sent as a messengerā€. With regard to the twelve apostles, it means they were chosen by Jesus and sent into the world in his name to bear the Gospel message to all nations (Mt.28:18-20).Jesus is called an apostle to signify that he was sent from the Father to preach the good news and set captives free, as prophesied by Isaiah. ā€œFor God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.ā€ (Jn.3:17).

Now this brings us back to 1 Corinthians 15:7: ā€œAfter that, he was seen by James, then by all the apostles.ā€ You contend that the word applies to all of Christā€™s disciples. Now if this were true, then all of his disciples would have been commissioned to go out into the whole world as ministers of his word. But we read in Matthew 28 that Jesus had specifically appointed the Eleven for this task just before he ascended into heaven. And, of course, James the Less / Younger / Just was included. We read in Ephesians 4:11: ā€œAnd he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors,ā€ (DRB). So not all of Christā€™s disciples have been appointed to be ā€œapostlesā€, but only some, according to their particular calling. The word ā€˜apostlesā€™ does not apply to each and every disciple. What Paul means by ā€œall the apostlesā€ is 'all eleven of them, including James after our Lord appeared only to him as he had only to Peter. When Jesus appeared to the common disciples, it wasnā€™t on an individual basis. He appeared to about 500 of them at once when they were probably gathered together. And these disciples are called ā€œbrethrenā€ which distinguishes them from the ā€œapostles.ā€

PAX

:heaven:
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No, ā€œapostleā€ applies to the 70.
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
No, ā€œapostleā€ applies to the 70.
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The 70 disciples/apostles were indeed emissaries of Jesus, but they were commissioned only to go before the Lord throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria in preparation for his arrival there. They were not commissioned to go beyond Palestine and reach out to the Gentiles. That task lay with the original Twelve and, of course, Paul and his associates (Lk.10:1-24).

PAX

:heaven:
 
Good_Fella said:
The 70 disciples/apostles were indeed emissaries of Jesus, but they were commissioned only to go before the Lord throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria in preparation for his arrival there. They were not commissioned to go beyond Palestine and reach out to the Gentiles. That task lay with the original Twelve and, of course, Paul and his associates (Lk.10:1-24).

PAX

:heaven:
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Yeah. I always categorized them as local bishops for some reason.
 
Good_Fella said:
How do you know that?
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It is generally believed (by ECFs etc) that St. Matthias the Apostle and St. Luke the Evangelist were among the 72 Disciples. But perhaps others too, that we donā€™t know for sure. šŸ™‚
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
One of these guys (the seventy) was Barnabas, and probably James.
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Probably? Pure speculation.

There was one Bishop of Jerusalem, James the Less, son of Alphaeus/Clopas, and cousin of Jesus, who presided over the local churches in Palestine. We read in the Gospel of Luke that the 70 (72) disciples were appointed to serve as emissaries in a preparatory capacity and do missionary work before Jesus visited numerous towns and villages. Thatā€™s all. Many of them may have become presbyters and elders in local congregations, but not bishops like the apostle James.

According to Acts 1:21-23, itā€™s highly probable that Matthias and Joseph Barsabbas were among those disciples. Whether Barnabas or Luke were counted among them, thereā€™s no Scriptural indication. We can never be certain. I donā€™t believe Luke was one of the 70, since he was a native of Antioch and a Gentile. Jesus was reaching out to the House of Israel when he commissioned his extra disciples. The Evangelist would have been perpetually shaking the dust off his sandals wherever he went, being a Gentile.

PAX

:heaven:
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
So the NAB is Protestant? And we basically should not throw out the possibility that Paul meant the 72 other guys Jesus chose when he said ā€œall the apostles.ā€ I think we basically can agree on the PV of Mary, but not the ways of defending it.
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On returning, if you continue reading greets them, then offers praise to our Father, then:

Lk10:23 Turning to the disciples in private he said ā€œBlessed are the eyes that see what you seeā€

Typologically these are not the heads of the 12 tribes that Moses sends out. He sends out a the seventy and the two not present also prophesy. These prophets Jesus fulfills what Moses had done previously. Jesus in this episode is showing his authority as the one sent by God in the same vein as Moses. Here Moses is a ā€œtypeā€ of Christ.

This also applies to usi.e. Disciples sharing in the prophetic office of Christ but we at not apostles.

Peace and God bless
Nicene
 
Good_Fella said:
Probably? Pure speculation.

There was one Bishop of Jerusalem, James the Less, son of Alphaeus/Clopas, and cousin of Jesus, who presided over the local churches in Palestine. We read in the Gospel of Luke that the 70 (72) disciples were appointed to serve as emissaries in a preparatory capacity and do missionary work before Jesus visited numerous towns and villages. Thatā€™s all. Many of them may have become presbyters and elders in local congregations, but not bishops like the apostle James.

According to Acts 1:21-23, itā€™s highly probable that Matthias and Joseph Barsabbas were among those disciples. Whether Barnabas or Luke were counted among them, thereā€™s no Scriptural indication. We can never be certain. I donā€™t believe Luke was one of the 70, since he was a native of Antioch and a Gentile. Jesus was reaching out to the House of Israel when he commissioned his extra disciples. The Evangelist would have been perpetually shaking the dust off his sandals wherever he went, being a Gentile.

PAX

:heaven:
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In Hippotylusā€™ list of the seventy James the Just is mentioned. In fact heā€™s the first on that list!
 
Good_Fella said:
Probably? Pure speculation.

There was one Bishop of Jerusalem, James the Less, son of Alphaeus/Clopas, and cousin of Jesus, who presided over the local churches in Palestine. We read in the Gospel of Luke that the 70 (72) disciples were appointed to serve as emissaries in a preparatory capacity and do missionary work before Jesus visited numerous towns and villages. Thatā€™s all. Many of them may have become presbyters and elders in local congregations, but not bishops like the apostle James.

According to Acts 1:21-23, itā€™s highly probable that Matthias and Joseph Barsabbas were among those disciples. Whether Barnabas or Luke were counted among them, thereā€™s no Scriptural indication. We can never be certain. I donā€™t believe Luke was one of the 70, since he was a native of Antioch and a Gentile. Jesus was reaching out to the House of Israel when he commissioned his extra disciples. The Evangelist would have been perpetually shaking the dust off his sandals wherever he went, being a Gentile.

PAX

:heaven:
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Correction: Joseph Barsabbas is Barnabasā€™ original name. He was born in Cyprus, but his family was Jewish of the tribe of Levi.
 
Nicene said:
On returning, if you continue reading greets them, then offers praise to our Father, then:

Lk10:23 Turning to the disciples in private he said ā€œBlessed are the eyes that see what you seeā€

Typologically these are not the heads of the 12 tribes that Moses sends out. He sends out a the seventy and the two not present also prophesy. These prophets Jesus fulfills what Moses had done previously. Jesus in this episode is showing his authority as the one sent by God in the same vein as Moses. Here Moses is a ā€œtypeā€ of Christ.

This also applies to usi.e. Disciples sharing in the prophetic office of Christ but we at not apostles.

Peace and God bless
Nicene
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*9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, ā€œCome, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.ā€ 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. *On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. - Revelation 21

:heaven:
 
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