Mary's perpetual virginity

[mom_07]

I have heard and used the arguments in other thread concerning this teaching. I have not heard this point made or a rebuttal.

The following is from a protestant friend:

The first being that the catholic church insists that Mary the mother of Jesus maintained her virginity throughout her life. Even though the bible says that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Not only that but Matthew 1:24 says "Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,

and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus."

The hebrew names version says it this way, “and didn’t know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son. He named him Yeshua.”
Here is the Link to the Hebrew Names Bible Translation of Matthew 1: 24-25

ebible.org/bible/hnv/Matthew.htm

Which the translators claim it is a modern translation of The American Bible:

ebible.org/asv/Matthew.htm

Any comments/resonses?

 

[Verbum]

Hi Mom,

These objections came up 1600 years ago and were answered once and for all by St. Jerome. I suggest you read his treatise “To Helvidius”, which you can find by clicking here.

Verbum

 

[mom_07]

Verbum:

Hi Mom,

These objections came up 1600 years ago and were answered once and for all by St. Jerome. I suggest you read his treatise “To Helvidius”, which you can find by clicking here.

Verbum

Thank you. Great resource it doesn’t answer the question about the translations.

Anyone?

 

[Della]

mom 07:

Thank you. Great resource it doesn’t answer the question about the translations.

Anyone?

What your protestant friend is assuming is that the word “until” means that after Mary bore Jesus she and Joseph had marital relations. But, the text doesn’t say that nor really imply it because Matthew isn’t interested in telling us about Mary and Jospeh sexual lives, but only in establishing that Jesus was not conceived from the loins of Joseph. IOW, your Protestant friend and those who believe like him/her are back reading into the text what isn’t there because of what they want it to say to support their contention, not because they have an overweaning interest in discovering the truth.

The word until, no matter in what language it is translated into doesn’t automatically mean that something has to change afterwards. It only means that up until that point this or that hadn’t happened, in this case that Mary and Joseph had not had sexual relations. The word until does not at all mean that they had to have sexual relations afterwards.

For example, if you were to say, “My boyfriend and I hadn’t kissed until our first dance” you would not be saying you never kissed afterwards, nor would you be saying that you ever kissed again. All you have established for certain is that you hadn’t kissed up to that point in time, but you have not told us what you did afterwards.

 

[tjmiller]

Likewise, Michal the daughter of Saul had no children even until the day of her death (2 Sam. 6:23).
I suppose a protestant would insist she must have had children AFTER her death!

Also: Christ will reign until all enemies have ben subjected to him (1 Cor. 15:25).
Do Prots insist that Christ will then reign no longer?

Let them get out an exhaustive biblical concordance and study every single usage in Scripture of the word “until.”

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Mom, the hebrew roots name bible is simply a individual revision of the WEB by Michael Paul Johnson.

Is the WEB a one-man translation?

Many people have been involved in the production and editing of the World English Bible from a variety of backgrounds. Because this is a revision of the American Standard Version of the Revised Bible, we start with the over 50 Evangelical scholars who worked on that project. They, in turn, relied on the work of those who had gone before them. We also rely on the work of many scholars who have found, compiled, combined, and published the excellent and highly accurate Hebrew and Greek texts from which we work. We also rely on the excellent lexicons of Hebrew, Chaldee, and Greek that are available to us.

In addition to these excellent references that represent literally hundreds of years of combined labor by many committed Christian men and women, we have access to the United Bible Society handbooks on Bible translation and a large number of other English translations to compare and consult.

Among the volunteers who have contributed to this project, we have people who attend various churches, including Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, non-denominational, and many more. This broad representation helps guard against introducing sectarian bias into the work. In addition, the novel technique of publishing draft copies of the World English Bible on the Internet provides additional protection against bias, because all serious comments are carefully considered and the wording compared to the original language.

Although we don’t demand credentials from people who comment on the translation by email, we do validate their comments before deciding what to do with them.
**
We do have one senior editor who is responsible for decisions regarding the text, but he is also accountable to several other Christians.** Everyone who has authority to decide on the wording in the World English Bible believes in the inspiration by the Holy Spirit of the text as recorded by the original authors. In addition, we also believe that the Holy Spirit is still active in preserving the text and helps us in our work to the extent that we let Him.

ebible.org/web/

Bottom line it is a prostestant version. Since, Mr. Johnson claims to verify translation suggestions, ask where their strange translation is documented?

 

[tjmiller]

In re: the translations you mentioned, with which I am unfamiliar, simply state to your prot friend, “This is not the Word of God!”

To his/her shocked and angry countenance, follow up: “It is merely a translation (or even worse, paraphrase) of the Word of God, by a committee with an ideological agenda. When you believe what this says, you place your faith, not in God, nor in His Word, but in a handful of men with no divine authority. I’d rather trust in the Apostolic Authority with which Christ endowed the Catholic Church, promising to guide it into all truth…”

(Incidentally, this argument can also be used against what passes for “Catholic” Bibles these days, so never attempt to use ANY English translation in a dispute. Only the ancient/original languages, the Magisterium, and Apostolic Tradition will do.)

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Mom, again I have a Hebrew NT, and there is no warrent to add the words that Johnson added to his.

centuryone.com/4470-0.html

I checked my shem tov hebrew matthew for your text, and his mistranslation does not come from there.

google.com/search?q=Matthew++++Hebrew&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N

simply point out from the FAQ of the WEB website, that Johnson verifies all translations submitted to him, and demand the source where Johnson got the added words. They simply are not in the Greek nor Hebrew texts.

 

[BrianH]

Della:

What your protestant friend is assuming is that the word “until” means that after Mary bore Jesus she and Joseph had marital relations. But, the text doesn’t say that nor really imply it because Matthew isn’t interested in telling us about Mary and Jospeh sexual lives, but only in establishing that Jesus was not conceived from the loins of Joseph. IOW, your Protestant friend and those who believe like him/her are back reading into the text what isn’t there because of what they want it to say to support their contention, not because they have an overweaning interest in discovering the truth.

But the text also does not say they did not have sex. Isn’t it expected that people do have sex after married and you are “reading into the text what isn’t there because of what YOU want it to say”. If a person was not familiar with Catholic tradition there is no way when they read of his brothers and sisters ,and that passage, they would jump to the conclusion …that Mary remained a perpetual virgins. Dont get me wrong here but seriously
BrianH

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

It is not just Catholic Tradition. It is Eastern Orthodox Tradition, Oriental Orthodox Tradition and Tradition of the Assyrian Church of the East (basically the Tradition of all the Apostolic Faiths).

Bless,

BrianH:

But the text also does not say they did not have sex. Isn’t it expected that people do have sex after married and you are “reading into the text what isn’t there because of what YOU want it to say”. If a person was not familiar with Catholic tradition there is no way when they read of his brothers and sisters ,and that passage, they would jump to the conclusion …that Mary remained a perpetual virgins. Dont get me wrong here but seriously
BrianH

 

[exoflare]

tjmiller:

Likewise, Michal the daughter of Saul had no children even until the day of her death (2 Sam. 6:23).
I suppose a protestant would insist she must have had children AFTER her death!

Also: Christ will reign until all enemies have ben subjected to him (1 Cor. 15:25).
Do Prots insist that Christ will then reign no longer?

Let them get out an exhaustive biblical concordance and study every single usage in Scripture of the word “until.”

LOL that’s a good one! It will certainly come in handy later on!

 

[BrianH]

Semper Fi:

It is not just Catholic Tradition. It is Eastern Orthodox Tradition, Oriental Orthodox Tradition and Tradition of the Assyrian Church of the East (basically the Tradition of all the Apostolic Faiths).

Bless,

I will use the term Apostolic tradition from now on.
BrianH

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

BrianH:

I will use the term Apostolic tradition from now on.
BrianH

Tradition with a small t usually refers to disciplines which can be changed if there was a reason to do so (i.e. priestly celibacy). Tradition - or Sacred Tradition, refers to those things handed down to us through the Apostles. That is, that Mary is the Theotokos (Mother of God or God-bearer) and her perpetual virginity or the fact that women cannot be priests because Christ never ordained any. Just making a clarification.

Bless,

 

[st_michael]

BrianH:

But the text also does not say they did not have sex. Isn’t it expected that people do have sex after married and you are “reading into the text what isn’t there because of what YOU want it to say”. If a person was not familiar with Catholic tradition there is no way when they read of his brothers and sisters ,and that passage, they would jump to the conclusion …that Mary remained a perpetual virgins. Dont get me wrong here but seriously
BrianH

Luke 1:34
“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

Why would Mary have to ask Gabriel how she will have a child? Mary being promised to Joseph for marriage would naturally understand with marriage comes children… However, she wonders how she will have a child? Why?

 

[BrianH]

st_michael:

Luke 1:34

Why would Mary have to ask Gabriel how she will have a child? Mary being promised to Joseph for marriage would naturally understand with marriage comes children… However, she wonders how she will have a child? Why?

Because she has not had sex. Marriage only equals children with sex. It seems so self-evident I worry I am missing what you are asking.
BrianH

 

[st_michael]

BrianH:

Because she has not had sex. Marriage only equals children with sex. It seems so self-evident I worry I am missing what you are asking.
BrianH

Every young women would know that marriage equal’s children…

Mary understood that she was a virgin… and a virgin is a person who does not give themselves to sexual relations…

A young lady, promised in marriage, would automatically know that her marriage would involve sexual relations if her marriage was to be a typical marriage you talk about.

If she knew the mechanics of sex or not is not important. She knew marriage produced children. But, she still ask’s "how can this be?

Do you posit she asked this question to learn about the mechanics of sex?

I posit, she did not ask the Angel for the basic instruction of sex. But, how she can have a child while remaining a virgin.

The Angel did not hesitate on his reply and understood Mary’s question was not about the mechanics of sex.

 

[tjmiller]

Mary inquired as to how she would have a child, because she had, previously, inspired by the Holy Spirit, made a private vow of perpetual virginity (a fact with which St. Joseph was aquainted).

This is the traditional Catholic interpretation of our Lady’s question,and the only one which really makes sense.

 

[st_michael]

tjmiller:

Mary inquired as to how she would have a child, because she had, previously, inspired by the Holy Spirit, made a private vow of perpetual virginity (a fact with which St. Joseph was aquainted).

This is the traditional Catholic interpretation of our Lady’s question,and the only one which really makes sense.

Hi tjmiller,

I agree. However, How can you know Mary made a private vow, if it was private?

Is this an official teaching of the Church?

I believe the Church has not officially taught she made a private vow. But is left for the Catholic’s own opinion.

The Church teaches Mary is a Virgin before and after the birth of Christ Jesus. As a Catholic this understanding is not left to opinion.

If I am wrong please provide document references.

 

[tjmiller]

By Mary’s private vow of perpetual virginity,
I meant “private” merely in the sense of “not publicly professed”, as in religious life today - not in the sense of “secret.” By “traditional interpretation”, I meant “small t” tradition, as in “pious, probable and well-founded perennial belief of the faithful.”

Although it certainly does not rise to the level of official Church doctrine, the proposition is authoritatively vouched for nonetheless: “From the question which Mary puts to the Angel…it is inferred that she had taken the resolve of constant virginity on the ground of a special Divine enlightenment. In the light of this text St. Augustine and many Fathers and theologians believed that Mary made a formal vow of virginity” Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 207.

Cf. also St. Augustine, De sancte virginitate, 4:4; the Navarre Bible commentary on Lk. 1:34, and (inter alia)the Annunciation scene as portrayed in the official Antiphons for Sext and None (Mid-Day Prayers of the Liturgy of the Hours) of Advent, in which our Lady refers to her virginity as a “cloister”, ie., a solemnly vowed, permanent enclosure: “Gabriel angelus locutus est Mariae dicens: Ave, gratia plena; Dominus tecum; benedicta tu inter mulieres.” “Maria dixit: Qualis ista salutatio? quia conturbata est anima mea, et quia paritura sum Regem, qui claustrum virginitatis meae non violabit.”

 

[st_michael]

tjmiller:

St. Augustine and many Fathers and theologians believed that Mary made a formal vow of virginity" Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 207.

Although I agree with the fact that Mary was a perputual virgin. I do not try to teach the Church claims she made a “formal vow of virginity”.

I would also be cautious about saying the teaching is authoritatively vouched for.

In a forum like this, I believe a statement should be carefully stated to prevent misunderstandings…

I have opinions and St Augustine has opinions as do many Fathers and laypeople of the Church… but the fact that many posit the possible “formal vow”, it is still opinion.

The Church allows is members to have their own opinions on how and why she remained a virgin. But as a Catholic we must accept the teaching that Mary remained a virgin her entire life…