Mary's "Saving Office"

[Classicist]

Friends,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #969, from Lumen Gentium 62, says this:

“Taken up to heaven, she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.”

#970 qualifies this with reference to Christ, but If misunderstood, it could sound blasphemous and derogatory to Christ’s the Savior. How does the status of “Mother of God” imply a “saving office”? Christ has gone up on high, and received gifts for men, but why must we say that Mary communicates the gifts of salvation?

How much of this is infallible teaching anyway?

 

[Eruvande]

I’m quite interested in this too.

 

[ellzeena]

Friends,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #969, from Lumen Gentium 62, says this:

“Taken up to heaven, she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.”

#970 qualifies this with reference to Christ, but If misunderstood, it could sound blasphemous and derogatory to Christ’s the Savior. How does the status of “Mother of God” imply a “saving office”? Christ has gone up on high, and received gifts for men, but why must we say that Mary communicates the gifts of salvation?

How much of this is infallible teaching anyway?

Why is your signature (which I translated) so obscure and yet you ask this sort of question?

Science has proven that fetal cells and dna remain in the woman who bears the child, even if that child miscarries. This means, Mary could NOT have been left to die and decay because her DNA contained traces of the son she bore. See:
lauragraceweldon.com/2012/06/12/mother-child-are-linked-at-the-cellular-level/

As she within whom was conceived the incarnated God (the Son, Jesus), she is of course a constant testimony to Him and His plan for salvation. And, like Him, is entire (in her glorified body). This is the doctrine of the RC Church, it is not up for grabs or opinion oriented. She points, always, to her Son and thus intercedes on our behalf to Him for our salvation. If you have problems with this doctrine then you must re-examine your Catholicism.

 

[MaryT777]

 

[Classicist]

Why is your signature (which I translated) so obscure and yet you ask this sort of question?

Not sure what my signature has to do with the post?

Science has proven that fetal cells and dna remain in the woman who bears the child, even if that child miscarries. This means, Mary could NOT have been left to die and decay because her DNA contained traces of the son she bore. See:
lauragraceweldon.com/2012/06/12/mother-child-are-linked-at-the-cellular-level/

This has nothing to do with the subject. I do not question the resurrection of the dead or the assumption of the blessed Virgin in the Original Post.

As she within whom was conceived the incarnated God (the Son, Jesus), she is of course a constant testimony to Him and His plan for salvation. And, like Him, is entire (in her glorified body). This is the doctrine of the RC Church, it is not up for grabs or opinion oriented. She points, always, to her Son and thus intercedes on our behalf to Him for our salvation. If you have problems with this doctrine then you must re-examine your Catholicism.

You are very zealous and forward in your reply. Of course she is a constant testimony, and she points to her Son. I do not have problems with this. You have not said that Mary saves us or that she gives us all the gifts of salvation, so again, none of this has to do with the questions at hand.

 

[JerryZ]

Friends,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #969, from Lumen Gentium 62, says this:

“Taken up to heaven, she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.”

#970 qualifies this with reference to Christ, but If misunderstood, it could sound blasphemous and derogatory to Christ’s the Savior. How does the status of “Mother of God” imply a “saving office”? Christ has gone up on high, and received gifts for men, but why must we say that Mary communicates the gifts of salvation?

How much of this is infallible teaching anyway?

Uhmm, did not her yes bring forth Jesus? in other words without her YES would there have been Jesus?

GOD Chose her to come to us, HE gave us the gift but to say that Mary had no part in it is disingenous or outright blind. So what is she doing now that is in Heaven together with her Son?
But to continue to pray for us, yes interceede with Her son on our behalf.
Of course the primary cause is ALWAYS GOD but again we want to negate any role she may have which by the way is a GIFT from GOD.
I only hope that she does count me as an adopted son and she help me become better friend with HER son Jesus.

 

[Classicist]

Uhmm, did not her yes bring forth Jesus? in other words without her YES would there have been Jesus?

Technically, the angel said “you will conceive”, period. She never used the specific affirmative participle YES. She heard what would be done, and she submitted to God’s plan. All this talk of “Mary’s Yes” sounds sentimental.

GOD Chose her to come to us, HE gave us the gift but to say that Mary had no part in it is disingenous or outright blind. So what is she doing now that is in Heaven together with her Son?
But to continue to pray for us, yes interceede with Her son on our behalf.
Of course the primary cause is ALWAYS GOD but again we want to negate any role she may have which by the way is a GIFT from GOD.
I only hope that she does count me as an adopted son and she help me become better friend with HER son Jesus.

I did not ask if she’s Mother of God, if she’s the Immaculate Conception, if she is Assumed into Heaven, or if she was perpetually virgin. I asked how she can “give us the gifts of eternal salvation?”, and nothing more. I just want to stick to Lumen Gentium and the Catechism paragraph in question.

It’s very interesting that a question about one aspect of Mary is assumed to be a denial of everything related to Mary. Please re-read the questions in my original post, and calm down! I have nothing against the blessed mother of God.

 

[Heliotropium]

Mary is the new Eve as Christ is the new Adam. As the new Eve and Mother of all humanity she works with the new Adam Christ to bring about the salvation of humanity. By her fiat Christ came into the world, by her motherly care Chris was raised and Christ was subject to her. By her request Christ worked His first public miracle in Cana and by this same act she offered Her Son as a Sacrifice for mankind since it was at that time Christ’s public life started; a life which both knew would end in His Passion, Death and Resurrection.
Is this to say Christ needs Mary? No, it is saying Christ willed that Mary play an active role in the salvation of mankind.

 

[Evan]

I would think that, thinking along with God, that any act on our part exists eternally. It will never be forgotten and cannot be denied.

So Mary’s Fiat (Let it be done unto me according to your word) eternally stands as accepting the Lord Jesus incarnation into the world and leading to our salvation. This Fiat is her saving act. Allowing God’s will to be fully accepted by man. A human yes to undo Eve’s no.

 

[po18guy]

Friends,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #969, from Lumen Gentium 62, says this:

“Taken up to heaven, she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.”

#970 qualifies this with reference to Christ, but If misunderstood, it could sound blasphemous and derogatory to Christ’s the Savior. How does the status of “Mother of God” imply a “saving office”? Christ has gone up on high, and received gifts for men, but why must we say that Mary communicates the gifts of salvation?

How much of this is infallible teaching anyway?

I’m quite interested in this too.

Bathsheba interceded on behalf of others with her son, Solomon, the King of Judah. Her seat was placed beside his throne, which is the throne of David (1 Kings 2:12-19). Jesus inherited that throne, as Gabriel spoke to Mary (Luke 1:32). As Jesus now inhabits that throne, Mary, seated beside Him, intercedes with Christ - our sole mediator - before God the Father. Intercessor and Mediator until time ceases.

Salvation, in the form of God made man - Emmanuel - came through Mary, as per Christ’s very plan. He created her specifically to be His mother (John 1:3). Thus, since Christ same through Mary by divine choice, Salvation (Christ) came through Mary. Mary’s role is an office, as she (and she alone) was chosen to fulfill her office of delivering Salvation to the world. Thus, she has a role in our salvation.

The problem is that, in today’s world, we view all of this as occurring in the past - nearly irrelevant. However, each and every thing God does is eternal, reflecting the eternal God. It is as true and valid today as it was from conception in the Divine intellect. Her motherhood is eternal, as Christ is eternal. Thus, her role as intercessor has not ceased, but continues to the end of time.

 

[garysibio]

Friends,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #969, from Lumen Gentium 62, says this:

“Taken up to heaven, she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.”

#970 qualifies this with reference to Christ, but If misunderstood, it could sound blasphemous and derogatory to Christ’s the Savior. How does the status of “Mother of God” imply a “saving office”? Christ has gone up on high, and received gifts for men, but why must we say that Mary communicates the gifts of salvation?

How much of this is infallible teaching anyway?

I think this is worded rather unfortunately. Had I written it I would have said “ministry” rather than “office.” Her job is to pray for us and all this passage means, in my opinion, is that she continues to pray for us. Nothing more although it certainly is easy to get confused by it.

 

[Nita]

Friends,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #969, from Lumen Gentium 62, says this:

“Taken up to heaven, she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.”

#970 qualifies this with reference to Christ, but If misunderstood, it could sound blasphemous and derogatory to Christ’s the Savior. How does the status of “Mother of God” imply a “saving office”? Christ has gone up on high, and received gifts for men, but why must we say that Mary communicates the gifts of salvation?

How much of this is infallible teaching anyway?

I think it helps to read the whole paragraph 62 of Lumen Gentium:
62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) *This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17)

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. **Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this** subordinate role of Mary**. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
Best would probably be to read all of Chapter VIII on Mary and the Church. Starts about halfway down – Paragraph 52. Actually, I don’t know if I ever read it so think I’ll do it right now.

 

[adf417]

Best would probably be to read all of Chapter VIII on Mary and the Church. Starts about halfway down – Paragraph 52. Actually, I don’t know if I ever read it so think I’ll do it right now.

Yes! Read in context is the only way it was ever meant to be read. Just like taking scripture verses out of context will get you in trouble.

 

[Bodyandblood999]

Mary is the new Eve as Christ is the new Adam. As the new Eve and Mother of all humanity she works with the new Adam Christ to bring about the salvation of humanity. By her fiat Christ came into the world, by her motherly care Chris was raised and Christ was subject to her. By her request Christ worked His first public miracle in Cana and by this same act she offered Her Son as a Sacrifice for mankind since it was at that time Christ’s public life started; a life which both knew would end in His Passion, Death and Resurrection.
Is this to say Christ needs Mary? No, it is saying Christ willed that Mary play an active role in the salvation of mankind.

I’m trying to understand this. I’m looking for verses in the Bible that speak of Mary providing salvation, and have not found any yet. And everywhere it mentions praying, if a name is talked about, it is always Jesus’ name. What should I make of that?

Thanks.

 

[De_Montfort]

The problem is that, in today’s world, we view all of this as occurring in the past - nearly irrelevant. However, each and every thing God does is eternal, reflecting the eternal God. It is as true and valid today as it was from conception in the Divine intellect. Her motherhood is eternal, as Christ is eternal. Thus, her role as intercessor has not ceased, but continues to the end of time.

Wow you just made very clear to me what St. Louis de Montfort says in True Devotion!

“The plan adopted by the three persons of the Blessed Trinity in the incarnation, the first coming of Jesus Christ, is adhered to each day in an invisible manner throughout the Church and they will pursue it to the end of time the last coming of Jesus Christ.”

Thank you very much on your clear point!

 

[po18guy]

Wow you just made very clear to me what St. Louis de Montfort says in True Devotion!

“The plan adopted by the three persons of the Blessed Trinity in the incarnation, the first coming of Jesus Christ, is adhered to each day in an invisible manner throughout the Church and they will pursue it to the end of time the last coming of Jesus Christ.”

Thank you very much on your clear point!

Thank the Holy Spirit if it made any sense at all! I have not yet read de Montfort. If I live long enough…

 

[Heliotropium]

I’m trying to understand this. I’m looking for verses in the Bible that speak of Mary providing salvation, and have not found any yet. And everywhere it mentions praying, if a name is talked about, it is always Jesus’ name. What should I make of that?

Thanks.

Maybe your problem is you’re method of searching the Scriptures is flawed. May be you should take into account that not everything that is important is presented in the Scriptures in a way that looks like; “Ask Mary to Pray for you”–Book, Chapter; Verse. Maybe you will one day read the Scriptures and turn to Luke 1:43-55 for example and see this little Jewish girl proclaim that her soul doth magnify the Lord and that all generations shall call her blessed. Maybe you will realize how unprecedented it was for a woman in Mary’s time to say that her soul doth magnify the Lord. Maybe you will see Mary’s cousin exclaim in disbelief that she could be so favored as to have the Mother of her Lord come to her. Maybe you will see how Mary brought salvation who is Christ Jesus, to Elizabeth’s child; sanctifying him! Maybe you will see this when you read that John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother’s womb the instant he heard Mary’s voice!

Maybe one day you will see that Mary has been a part of Gods plan of salvation when you see that from Genesis to Revelation, She is promised to His people, prefigured in the Old Testament, given to us at the foot of the Cross by Him, and present in His Church fighting the dragon even until the end of the world.

 

[Classicist]

Maybe your problem is you’re method of searching the Scriptures is flawed. May be you should take into account that not everything that is important is presented in the Scriptures in a way that looks like; “Ask Mary to Pray for you”–Book, Chapter; Verse. Maybe you will one day read the Scriptures and turn to Luke 1:43-55 for example and see this little Jewish girl proclaim that her soul doth magnify the Lord and that all generations shall call her blessed. Maybe you will realize how unprecedented it was for a woman in Mary’s time to say that her soul doth magnify the Lord. Maybe you will see Mary’s cousin exclaim in disbelief that she could be so favored as to have the Mother of her Lord come to her. Maybe you will see how Mary brought salvation who is Christ Jesus, to Elizabeth’s child; sanctifying him! Maybe you will see this when you read that John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother’s womb the instant he heard Mary’s voice!

Maybe one day you will see that Mary has been a part of Gods plan of salvation when you see that from Genesis to Revelation, She is promised to His people, prefigured in the Old Testament, given to us at the foot of the Cross by Him, and present in His Church fighting the dragon even until the end of the world.

Just to be a bit of a devil’s advocate, let me mirror everything you said, but substituting Christ:

*Maybe your problem is your method of searching the Scriptures is flawed. May be you should take into account that everything that is important about Jesus is presented in the Scriptures in a way that looks like: “Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the Throne and unto the Lamb, forever and ever” – in every Book, Chapter; Verse throughout the Scriptures. Maybe you will one day read the Scriptures and turn to John, for example, and see this poor Jewish man proclaim that he is the Bread of Life, the Light of the World, the Resurrection, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and the Good Shepherd without any reference to His Mother. Maybe you will realize how unprecedented it was for a man in Jesus’ time to say that he is equal to the Lord and His sheep hear His voice and He hears them. Maybe you will see Mary’s cousin exclaim in disbelief that she could be so favored as to have the mother of her LORD near her. Maybe you will see how the salvation Who is Christ Jesus sanctified Elizabeth’s child! Maybe you will see this when you read that John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother’s womb the instant he knew the Lord was near, in Mary!

Maybe one day you will see that Christ has been the author, finisher, and goal of God’s plan of salvation when you see that from Genesis to Revelation, He is promised to His people, prefigured in the Old Testament, given to us in the manger, on the Cross, and fighting the dragon through His Body the Church - even until the end of the world.*

Almost everything you said about Mary is directly applicable to the Lord. That is what unnerves some of us about saying that Mary is even now giving humanity the gifts of eternal salvation. Though the Bible does not contain everything, it does contain the most basic skeleton of truth - which all the Fathers & the Church have agreed upon for a long time. Not once is it implied that anyone other than Christ holds THE Saving Office, nor that anyone other than Christ gives us the “gifts of eternal salvation”.

Mary is mediatrix in that the Lord was incarnate in her, co-redemptrix in that her body was used for the incarnation, and has a saving office in that she is the Mother of God - but none of this tells us that she is now the center and focal point of all graces in Heaven. It’s shocking and leads many away from Jesus, not to Him.

 

[Heliotropium]

Just to be a bit of a devil’s advocate, let me mirror everything you said, but substituting Christ:

Maybe your problem is your method of searching the Scriptures is flawed. May be you should take into account that everything that is important about Jesus is presented in the Scriptures in a way that looks like: “Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the Throne and unto the Lamb, forever and ever” – in every Book, Chapter; Verse throughout the Scriptures. Maybe you will one day read the Scriptures and turn to John, for example, and see this poor Jewish man proclaim that he is the Bread of Life, the Light of the World, the Resurrection, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and the Good Shepherd without any reference to His Mother. Maybe you will realize how unprecedented it was for a man in Jesus’ time to say that he is equal to the Lord and His sheep hear His voice and He hears them. Maybe you will see Mary’s cousin exclaim in disbelief that she could be so favored as to have the mother of her LORD near her. Maybe you will see how the salvation Who is Christ Jesus sanctified Elizabeth’s child! Maybe you will see this when you read that John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother’s womb the instant he knew the Lord was near, in Mary!

Maybe one day you will see that Christ has been the author, finisher, and goal of God’s plan of salvation when you see that from Genesis to Revelation, He is promised to His people, prefigured in the Old Testament, given to us in the manger, on the Cross, and fighting the dragon through His Body the Church - even until the end of the world.

Almost everything you said about Mary is directly applicable to the Lord. That is what unnerves some of us about saying that Mary is even now giving humanity the gifts of eternal salvation. Though the Bible does not contain everything, it does contain the most basic skeleton of truth - which all the Fathers & the Church have agreed upon for a long time. Not once is it implied that anyone other than Christ holds THE Saving Office, nor that anyone other than Christ gives us the “gifts of eternal salvation”.

Mary is mediatrix in that the Lord was incarnate in her, co-redemptrix in that her body was used for the incarnation, and has a saving office in that she is the Mother of God - but none of this tells us that she is now the center and focal point of all graces in Heaven. It’s shocking and leads many away from Jesus, not to Him.

The thing is that outlook while accepting the New Adam who is Christ, also at the same time disregards the New Eve which is Mary. It says The New Adam works to save the faithful always but that the New Eve, Mary, no longer has an active role in the salvation of mankind. It’s funny because when you ask most Christians where did sin come from you always hear them say Adam and Eve. Never do they say only Adam or only Eve. No they see them as inseparably linked in the working of mankind’s fall from grace. Yet when it comes to the working of salvation of all mankind so many Christians incorrectly revert to just saying the New Adam while omitting the active partnership of the New Eve. Yet how could they do this? Are the merits of the Incarnation, Passion, Death and Resurrection subject to time? Where they not applied to the past generations of human beings? Are they not being applied to present generations of human beings and will they not be applied also to future generations of human beings long after we are dead? If so than Christ and Mary’s work in the salvation of mankind is timeless and always present and active.

So many Christians sadly believe they do Christ a service of honor when they do not go to Christ through His Mother, Mary. Such an attitude is the very example of the servant thinking he is greater than his Master; since it was the Master who deemed it right and good that He come to us through Mary. Do you really believe you are going to be able to have a better relationship with Christ by not going through the same path He took?

 

[Classicist]

The thing is that outlook while accepting the New Adam who is Christ, also at the same time disregards the New Eve which is Mary. It says The New Adam works to save the faithful always but that the New Eve, Mary, no longer has an active role in the salvation of mankind. It’s funny because when you ask most Christians where did sin come from you always hear them say Adam and Eve. Never do they say only Adam or only Eve.

“Most Christians” are not the measure here. The holy Apostle St. Paul says this in Romans 5:

17* It was by one man’s offense that death came to reign over all, but how much greater the reign in life of those who receive the fullness of grace and the gift of saving justice, through the one man, Jesus Christ.** One man’s** offense brought condemnation on all humanity; and one man’s good act has brought justification and life to all humanity. Just as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by** one man’s** obedience are many to be made upright.*

It’s lovely to link Adam & Eve, but for God’s purposes Adam is the one to blame - and so by the New Adam alone we are made whole. Romans makes this clear over and over again, beating us over the head with it. Man is also the Head of humanity, per Ephesians & 1 Corinthians. I understand that you want a close relationship with our mother, but cultivating that relationship at the expense of clear divine revelation is dangerous.

No they see them as inseparably linked in the working of mankind’s fall from grace. Yet when it comes to the working of salvation of all mankind so many Christians incorrectly revert to just saying the New Adam while omitting the active partnership of the New Eve. Yet how could they do this? Are the merits of the Incarnation, Passion, Death and Resurrection subject to time? Where they not applied to the past generations of human beings? Are they not being applied to present generations of human beings and will they not be applied also to future generations of human beings long after we are dead? If so than Christ and Mary’s work in the salvation of mankind is timeless and always present and active.

Is it a dogma that Mary is literally the New Eve? The metaphor is most unfitting, as blood & water came out of Christ’s side to form the Church, as Adam’s Rib formed Eve. To say that Mary is the New Eve seems to mangle the typology.

Yes, Mary’s acceptance of the Annunciation & Incarnation is present to God in eternity. There’s a difference, however, between: 1. God applying all the graces that came through Mary’s “Fiat”, vs. 2. saying that Mary actively works gives us all graces, salvation, and gifts from Heaven at this very moment through some special “saving office” given to her Right Now. In order for the latter to be true, Mary would have to be an eternal person, infinitely able to apply all graces at all times. That means Christ literally doesn’t do anything except advocate for us in a distant, inaccessible place. What a destruction of the New Testament theology that would be!

So many Christians sadly believe they do Christ a service of honor when they do not go to Christ through His Mother, Mary. Such an attitude is the very example of the servant thinking he is greater than his Master; since it was the Master who deemed it right and good that He come to us through Mary. Do you really believe you are going to be able to have a better relationship with Christ by not going through the same path He took?

The Master never said “come to me through my mother”; in fact, He took flesh of her that He might communicate with us directly, and raise us up to the Father. At any rate, that isn’t the subject at hand. I am not questioning the rosary, or other regular devotions to Mary. I am asking why it is said that she uniquely dispenses all the gifts of eternal salvation.

I believe I am going to have a better relationship with the Almighty Father through Christ, as Christ taught in every instant of His earthly ministry. You are making Christ the end, and Mary the way to Him - but the Lord never ceases to say that the Father is the end, and He is the way to the Father. Though Tradition exists, we cannot just push the Savior’s own doctrine aside.

You seem to think a grave insult is being given to our Mother by my approach, and I think mortal insult is being given to the Lord by your approach!