Mary's virginity ?

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At the Christmas Vigil mass the Gospel of matthew 1:1-25, at the end it states that joseph had “no relations with her (Mary) until she bore a son.”

Both the mass reading and the verbiage in the Magnificat book read the same way. Online Catholic Bible simply states that they did not have intercourse.

I have always been taught that Mary was ever-virgin, but the gospel reading at mass sttes joseph had no relagtions with her “until she bore a son,” which seems to indicate they had relaitons after.

What translation is correct and what is the scoop?

thanks, Rick in Denver
 
realtorrickone said:
At the Christmas Vigil mass the Gospel of matthew 1:1-25, at the end it states that joseph had “no relations with her (Mary) until she bore a son.”

Both the mass reading and the verbiage in the Magnificat book read the same way. Online Catholic Bible simply states that they did not have intercourse.

I have always been taught that Mary was ever-virgin, but the gospel reading at mass sttes joseph had no relagtions with her “until she bore a son,” which seems to indicate they had relaitons after.

What translation is correct and what is the scoop?

thanks, Rick in Denver
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Matthew simply added that to dispel thoughts of Joseph being the father of Jesus.
 
From the notes in the New American Bible:

Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.

ἕως, a particle marking a limit, and
I. as a conjunction signifying
  1. the temporal terminus ad quem, till, until (Latindonee,usquedum); as in the best writings a. with an preterite indicative, where something is spoken of which continued up to a certain time
 
Using “until” doesn’t necessarily mean the action noted previous to ‘until’ definitely took place after the point in time indicated by ‘until.’ If the scripture stated that Joseph had no relations with Mary until she died it wouldn’t mean that he had relations with her corpse. Sorry to use such a crass example but it’s the only one that came to mind quickly.
 
realtorrickone said:
At the Christmas Vigil mass the Gospel of matthew 1:1-25, at the end it states that joseph had “no relations with her (Mary) until she bore a son.”

Both the mass reading and the verbiage in the Magnificat book read the same way. Online Catholic Bible simply states that they did not have intercourse.

I have always been taught that Mary was ever-virgin, but the gospel reading at mass sttes joseph had no relagtions with her “until she bore a son,” which seems to indicate they had relaitons after.

What translation is correct and what is the scoop?

thanks, Rick in Denver
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Check my book out at the bottom of my post. Theirs a section there about Mary and her virginity. It speaks about that verse which you just mentioned.
 
First, I absolutely do not question the virginity of Mary.

When people use the word “until”, 99.99% of the time they **do **mean the action noted previous to ‘until’ definitely took place after the point in time indicated by ‘until.’

It would make a lot more sense to use phrasing other than “until”. Then there wouldn’t be a need for footnotes, explanations, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, etc.
 
Mary_Ellen said:
Using “until” doesn’t necessarily mean the action noted previous to ‘until’ definitely took place after the point in time indicated by ‘until.’ If the scripture stated that Joseph had no relations with Mary until she died it wouldn’t mean that he had relations with her corpse. Sorry to use such a crass example but it’s the only one that came to mind quickly.
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You sure hit the nail on the head with that one Mary.👍

Just to add to your reply another great example is:
1 Corinthians 15:25-26

25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

If until can only mean the action must have taken place afterwards then 1 Corinthians would be stating that once death has been destroyed God’s reign would end.

God Bless,
Matthew 19:26
 
By comparison:
2 Sam 6:23 – Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no children to (=until) the day of her death. (NKJV)
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Does mean that after she died, she started having children? No. Thus, “Joseph did not have relations with Mary until after she had her firstborn” does not mean that he did start to have relations with her after the birth of Jesus. And there are other similar cases where “until” is used to describe the lack of an action that becomes impossible after the “until” has been fulfilled.
 
Mary_Ellen said:
Using “until” doesn’t necessarily mean the action noted previous to ‘until’ definitely took place after the point in time indicated by ‘until.’ If the scripture stated that Joseph had no relations with Mary until she died it wouldn’t mean that he had relations with her corpse. Sorry to use such a crass example but it’s the only one that came to mind quickly.
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Perhaps Jesus promise to be with us until the end of time might illuminate your point? Jesus certainly won’t abandon us at the end of time. 👍
 
on_the_hill said:
First, I absolutely do not question the virginity of Mary.

When people use the word “until”, 99.99% of the time they **do **mean the action noted previous to ‘until’ definitely took place after the point in time indicated by ‘until.’

It would make a lot more sense to use phrasing other than “until”. Then there wouldn’t be a need for footnotes, explanations, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, etc.
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Hence the “ever virgin” doctrine. 👍
 
Here is another

Matthew 26:36***
“Then Jesus comes with them to a place called Gethsemane, and says to the disciples, Sit hereuntilI go away and pray yonder.”

Did Jesus intend that they wait for him to pray and then wonder about ?

See more at

defendingthebride.com/ma4/until.html

.*
 
JohnR77 said:
Here is another

Matthew 26:36***
“Then Jesus comes with them to a place called Gethsemane, and says to the disciples, Sit hereuntilI go away and pray yonder.”

Did Jesus intend that they wait for him to pray and then wonder about ?

See more at

defendingthebride.com/ma4/until.html

.*
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The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies beneath your feet.”
Then when he placed his enemies beneath his feet he said,“Sit at my right hand no more.”😛

#notscripture
 
DaveBj said:
By comparison:

Does mean that after she died, she started having children? No. Thus, “Joseph did not have relations with Mary until after she had her firstborn” does not mean that he did start to have relations with her after the birth of Jesus. And there are other similar cases where “until” is used to describe the lack of an action that becomes impossible after the “until” has been fulfilled.
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The sentence in scripture is an excellent example of that type of writing in scripture. I knew it was somewhere in scripture and was going to do a search. Thanks for posting it!
 
40 But Philip was found at Azotus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesarea. (Acts 8:40)

If the word “until” or “til” always implies a change, what are we to conclude happened when Philip came to Caesarea? That he stopped preaching the gospel? Or, that he started preaching against the gospel? Neither seems to be the case since later (Acts 21:8) he is still described as an evangelist.
 
realtorrickone said:
At the Christmas Vigil mass the Gospel of matthew 1:1-25, at the end it states that joseph had “no relations with her (Mary) until she bore a son.”

Both the mass reading and the verbiage in the Magnificat book read the same way. Online Catholic Bible simply states that they did not have intercourse.

I have always been taught that Mary was ever-virgin, but the gospel reading at mass sttes joseph had no relagtions with her “until she bore a son,” which seems to indicate they had relaitons after.

What translation is correct and what is the scoop?

thanks, Rick in Denver
Click to expand...
Dave BJ already hit my favorite example.

Both translations are correct, but one appears to suggest to you something that isn’t there.

The translation “until” is basically sloppy in English because the word “until” has strong connotations with us that it simply didn’t in Greek. So I would say the translation “until” is not really a good translation. It’s better to write “to the day” most of the times where “heos” is encountered in Greek.

eg: Joseph had no sexual relations with Mary to the day she bore a son.

The reason this is important to the Gospel writer is that they didn’t have precise knowledge of how a child was formed. If a man had sexual relations with a woman even after she became pregnant by another man (let alone God), many would question if the child were a mix of the two father’s substances. A virgin pregnancy was known in the ancient world, eg: look up Teratomas, it’s a Greek word for a virgin pregnancy of a terrible kind. It never bore a live child, but often child like dead things could be born without having had a father. If Joseph had sexual intercourse with Mary, even after she became pregnant – detractors could argue he was still the biological father; and the earlier pregnancy was nothing more than a teratoma or swelling of the womb.

The Gospel writer was ruling out all objections to the Father of Jesus being God.
He had no concern to tell us what happened with Mary after the child’s birth.
 
Huiou_Theou said:
Dave BJ already hit my favorite example.

Both translations are correct, but one appears to suggest to you something that isn’t there.

The translation “until” is basically sloppy in English because the word “until” has strong connotations with us that it simply didn’t in Greek. So I would say the translation “until” is not really a good translation. It’s better to write “to the day” most of the times where “heos” is encountered in Greek.

eg: Joseph had no sexual relations with Mary to the day she bore a son.

The reason this is important to the Gospel writer is that they didn’t have precise knowledge of how a child was formed. If a man had sexual relations with a woman even after she became pregnant by another man (let alone God), many would question if the child were a mix of the two father’s substances. A virgin pregnancy was known in the ancient world, eg: look up Teratomas, it’s a Greek word for a virgin pregnancy of a terrible kind. It never bore a live child, but often child like dead things could be born without having had a father. If Joseph had sexual intercourse with Mary, even after she became pregnant – detractors could argue he was still the biological father; and the earlier pregnancy was nothing more than a teratoma or swelling of the womb.

The Gospel writer was ruling out all objections to the Father of Jesus being God.
He had no concern to tell us what happened with Mary after the child’s birth.
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I had never heard of that before…thank you! And thanks to biblical scholars who are aware how important it is to understand the culture and level of scientific knowledge that was had of the people.

Some of us need to hear of that knowledge, and some do not. It can be simply accepted and obeyed as coming from the authentic teachings of the Church.
 
Nelka said:
Some great answers here that will help me with some seperated brethren of mine.
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The problem you will always have with the separate brethern is that one can show that the Catholic position is consistent with Scripture, but it cannot be shown that the Catholic position is mandated by Scripture. Catholics rely on more than Scripture, and interpret Scripture in light of Tradition. Christians who reject that methodology will have trouble accepting Catholic teachings that rely on Tradition, as is the case with perpetual virginity.
 
TMC said:
The problem you will always have with the separate brethern is that one can show that the Catholic position is consistent with Scripture, but it cannot be shown that the Catholic position is mandated by Scripture. Catholics rely on more than Scripture, and interpret Scripture in light of Tradition. Christians who reject that methodology will have trouble accepting Catholic teachings that rely on Tradition, as is the case with perpetual virginity.
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Why? Does not Scripture state we are to hang on to oral traditions that have been taught?
 
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