Masculinity: danger controlled, or danger-in-waiting?

[Tis_Bearself]

Haha. I didn’t mean that as combative btw, I was genuinely interested.

Whenever I asked my husband anything about “masculinity” he would give me a look sort of like Mr. Ed being patient with silly Wilbur and tell me he was quite secure in his masculinity and never had a concern about it. My husband was a tall and large man whose father was present and authoritative in his life, although my husband was closer to his mom and took a few decades to get closer to his dad, whom he regarded as being quite controlling.

I’ve met a few men who were concerned with their masculinity. They often had some handicap to overcome, such as being physically small, having an absent father, being bullied at school, or struggling with a mental illness. I’ve also noticed that short men often seem to try a little harder to assert themselves. But overall, I don’t see much of a masculinity problem with most guys. I do see a good many maturity problems with some men’s behavior, but that’s not the same as masculinity.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

This is beautiful, but are you writing it as a criticism of the article? Because I tend to feel like it agrees.

He was in control,

This is exactly it. It’s even more wonderful that Jesus acted the way he did, because we know he could have unleashed the power of the Heavens, not because he was just naturally laid-back.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

he was quite secure in his masculinity and never had a concern about it.

This makes sense.
The men that I feel embody the things I like about this article are actually the ones who weren’t that interested in it when I sent it to them.

But yes, given the men who naturally struggle with their masculinity, I think it’s ok to think about what it means and grow in confidence consciously- not everyone is naturally secure in themselves.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

not feeling okay to know what one wants.

This is in the article- Point 3, “Know What You Want”.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Sure, as I said I’m fine with any man who feels he needs to explore this issue to seek out good resources on the subject. I would probably refer him to the Catholic blogs such as Catholic Gentleman and Roman Catholic Man, because they’re not going to encourage any sort of immoral behavior, whereas a lot of stuff in the “Manosphere” is morally questionable in view of Catholic teachings.

However, there’s a big difference between saying, “Some men may need help or resources to better understand how to be good, responsible adult men and to feel secure in the role of a man, husband and/or father,” and saying, “Society has a big problem with all these emasculated men running around like sissies.” I can get behind the first statement. With the second statement, not so much and one should also consider the source.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

that’s fair, and maybe came from my personal frustrations, which is not good, rather than the article. I agree with you. My phrasing in that sense was probably not the kindest.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Haha. I didn’t mean that as combative btw, I was genuinely interested.

Whatever, punk. You’re just too scared.

No, but really, I do have some thoughts. I’m just on my phone at the moment and I’m going to wait till I’m at a computer to type them out.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

I’ve done a lot of firearms training. I’ve been in the military. Situational awareness is huge. When I’m out to dinner with my family or society in general, I’m situationally aware. In fact, I’ve got a firearm with me 99% of the time.

Can I just say, this quote is his set-up, not his main point. It’s him saying “this is the part we usually talk about, I want to balance this with other skills besides shooting a gun”.
HIs next sentence is
“We think about being tough and strong and athletic and capable. When it comes to martial arts and firearms training, we think about that stuff. And again, that’s important, but very rarely do we think about these softer, interpersonal communication and dynamic skills that I’m going to address with you today.”

 

[NevermoreLenore]

I think this podcast was excellent, although I believe his terminology could be altered for more effectiveness–he says ‘good men’ don’t change the world, where I think the term ‘nice guy’ is really what he meant. And using the term ‘dangerous’ evokes the wrong idea, wherein ‘powerful’ would be more apropos. Overall, I agree with the message, minus the gun carrying…why do people take pride in carrying a weapon? Seems like it’s compensation for insecurities. My husband was in the navy and just retired from law enforcement and he has a ‘retired’ badge and is allowed to carry his duty weapon whenever he likes–it stays locked in the safe. Because:

It’s another thing to become one of those weirdos who treats going to the grocery store for milk like he’s landing on Omaha Beach.

This is the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time …until I got to this:

Huh? What’re you saying, punk?! You questioning me? You wanna take it outside? I’m not scared, I’ll throw down right now!

(Silently weeps in his truck watching unlikely animal friendship videos on YouTube)

In the fight to bring equality to women, we have largely repressed the masculine, even shaming men for being men. As a woman, I love the masculine energy of my husband–it complements me well.

My husband often says being in the navy made a man out of him. If you were to meet him, you’d think gentle giant, polite, chivalrous, helpful, kind… but when necessary he instantly turns ‘dangerous’ and appropriately handled a threat. Our kids call this ‘scary daddy’ and they’ve only seen it once or twice, because my husband only acts like this out of necessity. The situational awareness discussed in the podcast is critically important. As a woman not quite 5’4" I’ve always been aware of my surroundings, where the exits are in relation to people in a room, body language, etc. As an LEO my husband was, and still is, hyper aware of his surroundings. Paranoid? Maybe, but he and I have seen things before they’re happening when others are oblivious–it’s served us and our children well.

 

[farronwolf]

As a man, I will give you my take on this, and you can take it for what it is worth, which may be nothing.

Men need to have a strong constitution. I am not saying that they need to be physically strong, but naturally we are stronger than women are, simple biology. We need to have a strong character. This isn’t to say we need to be abusive or violent in our nature. Some men are, and they usually get sent to prison. Not the kind of men society needs.

Men should be protectors. Whether it be for their own families, or for others who are unable to protect themselves. Exactly why historically men went to war to protect their country, clan, tribe, family or whatever.

This doesn’t mean that men can’t be compassionate, or have empathy, or show their love either. In the 31 years we have been together, my wife has seen me cry exactly 3 times. At the death of her father, at the death of one of my brother in laws, and at the death of my father. This doesn’t mean that I don’t have feelings, just that I keep them in check at most times. In that same 31 years she has seen me help other people, or done something for someone literally thousands of times, because it was the right thing to do.

Yes, I carry a gun just about every day. Have I ever had to pull it or use it on someone, nope, and I hope it stays that way. If I have to will I, yes, without hesitation, but it isn’t something that I desire.

Do some people think I am an jerk, yes. Especially my 8 sisters. Do these same people fail to ask for help or guidance from me when needed, nope, because they know I will do what I can for them.

There is a balance that a man must manage between be strong, which is what society expects and being weak, which will result in the decline of society as it has existed for most of time.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

this is a great explanation. thanks!

 

[seekingsynthesis]

I’m disturbed by how you seem to think it was the job of a man to do that.

(genuinely not trying to fight here), but honestly, what would you have done in this situation? If you were feeling unsafe and your own efforts hadn’t been enough?
Would you have just directly called police? Because that, in a different way, is still just relying on the strength/backup of men. (yes, I know some women are police officers, but it’s rarer).

 

[fhansen]

This is exactly it. It’s even more wonderful that Jesus acted the way he did, because we know he could have unleashed the power of the Heavens, not because he was just naturally laid-back.

Yes, He was always in control even in the face of evil and danger while living with no more power than we have as far as combating those things, which he sought to overcome with truth and love-and wants us to do the same. While His human flesh recoiled at the foreknowledge of the passion He would endure that’s all the more reason that His endurance was an act of willful courage-and control. God’s in the business of breaking and changing hearts, not forcing them into submission which is the way of the world, the way of competition between those of relative and limited power. But we’re obstinate, preferring ourselves to God as the catechism teaches that Adam did, preferring darkness to light. Anyway, I like this passage from Scripture as it applies here:

"But Jesus would not trust himself to them because he knew them all, and did not need anyone to testify about human nature. He himself understood it well." John 2:23-25

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My parents, both of them, would have dealt with it. They stepped in when I was being bullied in high school. Also when I was in junior high school, some weirdo tried to grope me and a friend as we were walking to school. The principal called the police and our parents. My mom immediately got in her car (Dad was at work) and went driving around town looking for a guy who matched the description we gave, planning to “hit him with her purse” if she found him. Fortunately she didn’t find him.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

when the standard for boyfriends and husbands is just following the woman around doing whatever activities she wants, being so gentle and harmless, etc. - feminizing their personalities to avoid being labelled “toxic”. And I have guy friends that I see being totally emasculated by girlfriends and wives, losing their male friendships and hobbies, etc).

I have literally never seen nor experienced this, but…okay

 

[seekingsynthesis]

I have literally never seen nor experienced this, but…okay

That’s fine. Do you have something to contribute to my actual question?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I have literally never seen nor experienced this, but…okay

I haven’t either, unless it was some kind of a BDSM relationship in which case the parties wanted that and agreed to it.

 

[Lou2U]

I know some others have said it, but I really don’t like the language of “potential to be dangerous but under control”.

Because sometimes violent/abusive men can seem under control for a long time before the abuse starts.

That’s the first thing that came to my mind when I read the phrase. And actually abusive men are always “dangerous men under control”, because they can turn that danger on and off when it suits them. So the phrasing is pretty hideous, IMO.

Actually I think the whole idea of “danger” is not very applicable to what the author is actually talking about. I agree with @OddBird and @NevermoreLenore that the word “powerful” would be much better.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I saw my dad cry three times in my life. Once was when I said I didn’t like our family last name, which was his last name, and hoped to change it when I grew up. I didn’t say that out of any dislike for my family, I just didn’t like (and still don’t like) the way the name sounds and the fact that people constantly mispronounce it and misspell it. I was about 13 and didn’t think of my remark as being upsetting to my easygoing dad, but apparently it was very upsetting to him, and he broke down and cried while he chewed me out for being disrespectful blahblahblah. This was rather shocking, Dad had fought in two wars and seen all sorts of rot and he never cried and rarely even raised his voice. I realized I had unwittingly hit some kind of a nerve. So I decided that’s it, I will never change my last name if it upset him that much. I would just set aside whatever dislike I had for it and continue to use it. And I have done so for over four decades. I am very stubborn and when I make up my mind to do something, it’s made up.

The ironic part is that I got all sorts of guff from other people who claimed I would change my mind someday when I got married and take my husband’s name, and then I got more guff for never changing my last name when I got married. I am sure there are Catholics today who would criticize me for being a “feminist”. Despite the fact that the main reason I kept it was because of Dad.
Of course, I didn’t tell the guff-givers that it was because of Dad. That was private and none of their business. I’m only posting it here now because Dad’s been dead for 30 years, I probably would not post about it if he were alive.

The other times I saw him cry was when he was really sick in the hospital. Once when he’d had a stroke and his sister who lived a long way away had called him and he was missing her and wished he could see her but neither one of them could travel. And once the week before he died when his mind was racing back to when he was 18 years old and assigned to be a shipboard medic in the war despite having no medical training and he was remembering having to assist the doctor with sewing somebody’s ear back on and keeping ice packs on some other guy so he didn’t die and he started crying remembering all that and probably remembering all the many guys he saw die as well (he saw entire ships get hit).

It is not fun to see your father upset and crying.
But I didn’t think it made him any less of a man.
It just made him a man who was very upset and sad.
It’s not like he went around snivelling every time he didn’t get his way about some little thing.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

That’s fine. Do you have something to contribute to my actual question?

I’m not sure the premis of yourcquestion is based on a broad experience of the world.

In healthy relationships, people take turns doing the things they like.
Sometimes it’s something he wants , sometimes it’s something she wants.