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seekingsynthesis
Guest
yeah I agree with this.
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Sarcelle
Guest
Hmm, why does the song, Macho Man, come to mind when I read this?
Much of what passes as masculinity is actually machismo.
Much of what passes as masculinity is actually machismo.
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Sarcelle
Guest
Masculinity and femininity aren’t something you lose the moment you do something that doesn’t fit the stereotype. It’s built into your being.
A man will do something in a masculine way simply because he is male, while women will do the same thing in a feminine way simply because she is female.
That’s the problem with stereotypes. They may be based on some kernel of reality but distorts the real thing.
Take for example fun house mirrors. You know the reflection is you but you also know that you don’t really look like that.
A man will do something in a masculine way simply because he is male, while women will do the same thing in a feminine way simply because she is female.
That’s the problem with stereotypes. They may be based on some kernel of reality but distorts the real thing.
Take for example fun house mirrors. You know the reflection is you but you also know that you don’t really look like that.
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Sarcelle
Guest
There wouldn’t be any offense taken if this power and authority weren’t used by many men to abuse their families.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
To some degree, yes. I have attended seminars on this, and there are certain things like multitasking that women are better at because they’ve biologically evolved to have that skill. They needed to be watching multiple children, caring for elderly, and dealing with food and shelter related tasks while men primarily focused on more discrete tasks that required physical strength and defensive capabilities, and therefore do better focusing on one task.
However, as with everything else, people create overbroad categories that are often more based on what they think women and men “should” be doing than what a particular man or woman can do, wants to do, or is naturally oriented to do. For example, I’ve known quite a few men who handled child care for young children and did fine with it. It did not make them less masculine, but those with a stereotype of a dad who must go out to work while mom stays home and cares for kids are often rather negative or even insulting about it. Likewise, there are women who do fine as soldiers, LEOs etc.
However, as with everything else, people create overbroad categories that are often more based on what they think women and men “should” be doing than what a particular man or woman can do, wants to do, or is naturally oriented to do. For example, I’ve known quite a few men who handled child care for young children and did fine with it. It did not make them less masculine, but those with a stereotype of a dad who must go out to work while mom stays home and cares for kids are often rather negative or even insulting about it. Likewise, there are women who do fine as soldiers, LEOs etc.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
The men in my life, from my dad to my late husband, my brothers and my adult son, my dear friends and co workers, they are all gentlemen. That DOES include being gentle, being harmless (really, who wants a harmful person in their lives??).
The hobbies of the men in my life range from sewing to professional art, from carpentry to playing MTG, cooking to big game hunting.
The hobbies of the men in my life range from sewing to professional art, from carpentry to playing MTG, cooking to big game hunting.
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Sarcelle
Guest
Nothing at all wrong with being assertive.
What is wrong is being violently aggressive.
Big difference.
What is wrong is being violently aggressive.
Big difference.
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christofirst
Guest
As a guy, the quality I most appreciate in another guy is what I call being a man of action. In construction, I worked with a guy like this who was always ready with the right response whenever a crisis or something out of the ordinary happened.
If two guys were fighting, he would step right in and break up the fight while I and other guys were standing there like we were watching a movie. If someone got injured, he was the first to render first aid and to direct others if additional help was needed.
No doubt, he was a leader. I also had a leadership position with our company, and we were both competent, responsible and easy to work with. But in a pressure situation, he was the man of action, and I was the guy wishing I was more like him.
I wouldn’t call him dangerous though, just ready to take action when needed.
If two guys were fighting, he would step right in and break up the fight while I and other guys were standing there like we were watching a movie. If someone got injured, he was the first to render first aid and to direct others if additional help was needed.
No doubt, he was a leader. I also had a leadership position with our company, and we were both competent, responsible and easy to work with. But in a pressure situation, he was the man of action, and I was the guy wishing I was more like him.
I wouldn’t call him dangerous though, just ready to take action when needed.
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Convert3
Guest
My idea of what a man is means being kind, gentle and helpful. I try to be polite, patient and calming to others. If someone is a bully I’ll try to convince them to back off. If someone is in danger, I will help in any way I can. I’m not afraid to call the police if needed, and if immediate intervention in a bad situation is required I will deal with the situation with any means I have including physical involvement. If someone tries to hurt my family I will do whatever I can to protect them.
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Raxus
Guest
There has been a small but vocal minority of 3rd-wave feminists who have prettymuch attempted to lump most, if not all, activities and proclivities traditionally considered “masculine” into the Toxic Masculinity box…everything from grilling, to sitting with one’s legs spread a bit in public places, to setting up a “Man Cave”. As is the way with a lot of things these days, the media picked up on that minority and helped to push the idea into the main sphere; a lot of articles like the OP posts are, I think, a response to that kind of malarky, because it does do a massive disservice to who and what men are, biologically speaking, and trying too hard to put men inside of a feminine box (encouraging men to constantly talk about their feelings, for example, which most men simply prefer not to do, society be damned) creates a feeling of being not good enough or flawed for a lot of men.
Insofar as the OP’s question goes, I’m not sure there’s an easy way to differentiate potentially violent men from actually violent men outside of the obvious. Every human being has the potential to be violent if certain (varied) conditions are met, after all.
Insofar as the OP’s question goes, I’m not sure there’s an easy way to differentiate potentially violent men from actually violent men outside of the obvious. Every human being has the potential to be violent if certain (varied) conditions are met, after all.
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Lea101
Guest
To be honest, it seems like most of the times, the men willingly ‘tame’ themselves down or have genuinely changed, but people are the ones emasculating him by pretending he’s no longer as masculine. (most popular and recent example is Prince Harry with Meghan) This isn’t to say that what you’re saying does not happen, because it does, but I think people can be too critical about how a partner changes during a relationship. Women also get a lot of flack for this, although it isn’t about femininity/masculinity.
This is a fair concern. The focus needs to be on Christian masculinity, not some individualistic/traditional type of masculinity. There are overlaps, definitely, but you’ll usually see the “toxic” traits in the latter.
I think this whole post is spot on. I’m from a South/South east culture and I picked this up as well. I do think some men need some direction so the OP isn’t off the mark. I just think there’s potential problems in overthinking masculinity and femininity.
Yes, I know
But that’s a starting point I struggle with.
That’s something I struggle with too. Admittedly I’m something of a pacifist. But that’s mainly because the giving of one’s life in face of violence is what I see in Christ’s life, and in the lives of many saints. They did and do not go into potential danger armed and ready to fight back, because that would also mean they’d see others as potential threats instead of as (sometimes indeed very lost and/or very twisted) brothers and sisters.
Where I live, there is a widespread kind of veneration for the monks of Tibhirine in Algeria. They were living among and working for poor people in the Atlas mountains, and were caught in the middle of the Algerian civil war in the 90’s. They knew what would likely happen if they stayed (violent death) and yet they chose to stay, to share in what they saw as the martyrdom of the Algerian people. They ended up being detained as hostages during two months and executed.
The abbot, Dom Christian de Chergé, wrote this before his death in his spiritual testament :
To me, this is Christian braveness and love.
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RolandThompsonGunner
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Haha, no, I figured.
Now that I’m at a computer, I guess what I was referring to is the way we’re collectively freaking out about what is normal behavior for young men. I have nephews who are in middle school now, and when they tell me about the way the school reacts to two 12 year old boys getting into a scrape it just strikes me as completely over the top. Like, a normal schoolyard tussle is treated like a four-alarm emergency. Or the way a lot of parents now discourage young boys from playing ‘violent’ games which I think are just a normal part of male development, like cops and robbers or army or whatever.
A couple of anecdotes that come to mind. When I was in middle school, I went to a Catholic boy’s summer camp for a few summers. One year, there was this kid, kinda small and weasely, who was the proverbial s&*!t talker. Just constantly needling people, making fun of everyone, just being annoying and grating. One day, one of the kids he was verbally picking on popped him and knocked him down in front of a crowd. One of the counselors who saw said something along the lines of “guess you need to make sure your mouth isn’t writing checks your butt can’t cash.” I feel like today that incident would’ve involved social workers helicoptering in, but I think the counselor handled it pretty well. I have no doubt he would have intervened if someone had started seriously pummeling the kid, but he also knew that, up to a point, let the boys be boys and work it out. The smack talker probably needed to have his card pulled a bit. He didn’t suffer anything worse than a busted lip and wounded pride. He dropped the “I’m gonna roast everyone” routine and actually started being tolerable to be around. Incidentally, that same camp used to have boxing as a normal, regular activity for the boys.
The other anecdote that comes to mind is talking to my dad when I was maybe 7 or 8 about the Vietnam era. I remember him explaining how the draft worked, and that he had turned 18 and had his number come in like 1972-1973. He was expecting to go, but Nixon stopped sending troops before he actually would have had to report for induction. I remember asking him if he had thought about running to Canada to get out of it (we lived about twenty minutes from the Canadian border, and had Canadian family) and he said no, even though he wasn’t a big believer in the war itself. I asked him why, and he just kind of shrugged and said something like, “Well, I wouldn’t want to look at myself in the mirror every day for the rest of my life and know I was a coward.” My dad is the last guy you’d ever see engaging in a lot of macho chest thumping. He’s not a guy who wants to start a bar fight. But one of the cultural norms that was baked into him was that for a man to shirk a duty like that would’ve been shameful and dishonorable. I think we’re sort of losing that norm.
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RolandThompsonGunner
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(cont from above)
I don’t know how much sense I’m making here. Like, if I was asleep with my wife at 2 am and we heard glass break and the front door opening, and I handed her a bat and said, “You go see what’s going on, I’m scared and I’m gonna hide.” I wouldn’t just feel like I had failed. I would feel like I had failed in a way that is distinct to being a male. I don’t want the next generation of men to lose the notion that there are masculine virtues that they should aspire to. That doesn’t mean I want to see meatheads or bullies or anything, obviously.
farronwolf
New member
Yea, I am pretty certain if I did that, the robber would be safe and I would be taking a trip to the ER from the lumps on my head.
This type of behavior would certainly warrant revocation of the “man card”.
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Sarcelle
Guest
The most unobtrusive guy I know happens to be a Navy Seal. He had a quiet confidence and didn’t have a swaggering bravado.
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NevermoreLenore
Guest
Tis_Bearself
Patron
While I’m not a fan of this either, it’s largely because of legal liability concerns for the school. Also, I’ve had male friends who were seriously injured in school fights - we’re talking broken bones or anal rape - so I would rather see an overreaction by the school, than the type of underreaction that occurred when my friends were attacked.
This is pretty extreme. I doubt any man would do this. There are also a lot of women who would go right behind him with their own bat or gun, because they love him and they are tough.
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NevermoreLenore
Guest
In the work to prevent destructive bullying, we’ve gone way overboard with interventions that (I believe) are ineffective. Kids, adults actually, don’t know how to resolve conflict on their own. Look at the US political discussions on this board–we cannot civilly discuss why we think one candidate is better than another and acknowledge the other’s point of view. No, it devolves into extreme dichotomies and severing of relationships. It used to be you could rigorously debate an issue, be on opposite ends, and the go out for a beer or dinner and enjoy the friendship. Teaching our kids to resolve conflict as well as to know when the problem is too big and they need to ask for help would go far in fostering more positive interactions. I remember in elementary school tussles escalated to ‘meet you at the bike racks after school’. There would be some wildly ineffective punches thrown, maybe a torn shirt, and the next day the kids would be riding their bikes to school together again. Though I was a girl, I was party to such a ‘fight’ in my neighbourhood–a girl my age was picking on my little brother (four years younger)…she didn’t do that again and my parents shrugged it off when I told them.
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Sarcelle
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This happened to my aunt and uncle. At 2 AM, my aunt awoke to the sound of shattering glass. My uncle, who is a heavy sleeper, didn’t wake up. Instead of shaking him awake and wasting time, she grabbed her gun and confronted the intruder. He saw the gun and ran off, after which she called 911. Luckily a patrolling cop saw the intruder and apprehended him. He was wanted due to rape.
As for my uncle, who carried on sleeping, he learned of the whole thing when he woke up.
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