Mask situation in your church

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Perhaps your pastor can post in the bulletin the definitions of two words: suggested and mandatory. And then explain the difference between the two. Sounds like people in your parish are not clear on what “not mandatory” means. This shouldn’t be so difficult.
 
farronwolf said:
Did you actually read the report instead of the headline?
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Really???
Thomas54 said:
“Evidence from RCTs of hand hygiene or face masks did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza, and limited evidence was available on other environmental measures.“
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Is this statement difficult for anyone to understand?

Aren’t we supposed to trust the CDC even though the CDC & Fauci have flip flopped on masks?

As an engineer, I agree with those that say “trust the science.” But, I trust the science that was before the “politicized science” and the CDC report that I posted looked at RCT’s that took place prior to Covid. Not laboratory tests on masks and observational or anecdotal studies. Those are nice to chitchat about while having a cup of coffee, but they are not science.

Thomas
 
Great as an engineer you will understand that in your world there are things that are definitive. This piece of metal will hold this much weight, or carry this much amperage or whatever. And for the most part those things can be relied upon. Until the one instance where there was a imperfection in the piece of metal and it collapses or creates a short. Luckily those cases are rare.

Virology isn’t like engineering. Things don’t remain the same, so suggested treatments change as new data becomes available. Virus’ don’t all act the same way, they react differently to external forces and mutate frequently.

Exactly why the flu shot isn’t always 100% effective. Each year they are doing their best to treat the most people with the most effective vaccine for that season. They miss the mark sometimes.

If 100 engineers are given the task to build a bridge across X space, they may come up with different plans for doing it, but can all get the job done. Now give the same 100 engineers that task with a river which doesn’t have defined boundaries and how many of them can do it, or do it without the bridge failing. How much longer will it take them, and how many times will they change their approach to the problem.

Any engineer that would start out with “this is what we are doing regardless and we will not vary from this plan” will be fired very quickly wouldn’t you think.
 
Thomas54 said:
But, I trust the science that was before the “politicized science” and the CDC report that I posted looked at RCT’s that took place prior to Covid. Not laboratory tests on masks and observational or anecdotal studies. Those are nice to chitchat about while having a cup of coffee, but they are not science.
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Insisting on RCTs is politicized science. It is not true that other kinds of studies are not science. In many cases, policy is made based on other kinds of evidence.
 
farronwolf said:
Any engineer that would start out with “this is what we are doing regardless and we will not vary from this plan” will be fired very quickly wouldn’t you think.
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It depends on who the engineer is and what his track record is.

My older brother, who passed away a few years ago, was a civil engineer. At his funeral, the owner of the engineering firm that he had worked for for 30 years told me that my brother saved him millions of dollars through the years by going against what some of the younger engineers fresh out of college said was the best way to do things.

He said that there were times that he wanted to listen to the younger guys because their ideas sounded good, but my brother had a track record of doing it the right way at the lowest cost.

Engineers are like economists. If you put 10 of each in a room you will come out with 10 different opinions.

A good book that shows how bad scientific studies abound is:


Doctors and scientists get caught up in their own beliefs and job security & they put blinders on and will not admit that they are wrong or that their study did not show what they thought it would show. They go to the grave with their beliefs. Ancel Keys and his bogus cholesterol study where he cherry-picked his data is but one example.

So, as far as the science goes, I want to see lots of RCTs and not just observational studies or some university lab telling me that a mask will work.

God Bless,
Thomas
 
Tolle_Lege said:
Next time they start ranting and raving at you, you should tell them that you weren’t posing any threat by just sitting there and breathing calmly without a mask, but now that you had to respond and talk to them, they put themselves at risk because you had to reply to their unhinged attack on you.
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Are you my oldest daughter? 🤣

Oddly enough, she basically told me the same thing today!!! She told me that I should’ve said “shut your pie hole, you’re blowing the coronavirus through your mask.” 😃
 
LisaB said:
Perhaps your pastor can post in the bulletin the definitions of two words: suggested and mandatory. And then explain the difference between the two. Sounds like people in your parish are not clear on what “not mandatory” means. This shouldn’t be so difficult.
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I met with him today and as always, he was very gracious; we are blessed to have him. He said that he will address our parish and clarify what our bishop means when he says “parishioners are encouraged to wear masks.”

We also addressed accommodation and I gave him some ideas of my own because I never liked any employee coming to me with a concern and not presenting me with their thoughts on a solution. When someone does that, they may not like the solution that you come up with.

I also asked him to put his guidance in every Sunday bulletin.

As they say,
Developing…

God Bless,
Thomas
 
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Thomas54 said:
As stated earlier, ADA does not apply to places of worship.
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I was responding to the suggestion that those who support the ADA would support allowed non-masked people into the building.

And no, the restaurant policies don’t make sense to me – I believe indoor dining should be prohibited.
 
Thomas54 said:
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27lw:
Dear Thomas,
You mention that your dispensation was lifted except for those at high risk. You mention in your first post that you have a particular medical condition. May I gently ask, if you know that your condition is on the list of conditions that have a high risk of complications with covid? Have you talked with your doctor about your going in public places with mask / without mask?
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Mine and my wife’s situation do not make us susceptible to complications from Covid. Although we are getting into the “older” category, we are both very healthy.

My wife’s is claustrophobic and we left church during mass before the readings were over when she first wore a mask. She just couldn’t do it. She can wear it over her mouth for a little while, but not for an entire mass without taking breaks.

I can’t go into the events in her childhood that made her claustrophobic, if I did, you would understand.

Also, I really can’t go into my issues on a public forum, they are significant.

My wife can struggle through wearing the mask over her mouth, but not for the entire mass. So, since attendance is low, we sit in the back and try to avoid others. As far as I can tell, we are at no more risk to anyone than the rest of us are. You may stand more of a chance of getting Covid going to the grocery store.

We all like to say that we will “trust the science” and Dr. Fauci says that we must have RCTs & that observational studies are basically worthless.

So, below is the actual CDC Mask study from May 2020 and I have no idea why the CDC is still recommending wearing masks after putting out their own study that shows RCTs show that masks don’t stop the spread of a virus.

Here is the conclusion if you don’t have time to read it:

“Evidence from RCTs of hand hygiene or face masks did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza, and limited evidence was available on other environmental measures.“

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures - Volume 26, Number 5—May 2020 - Emerging Infectious Diseases journal - CDC

God Bless us all,
Thomas
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Okay, I can’t help but notice that you said in your very first post that you have CAD. That’s coronary artery disease, right? It appears to me that CAD is considered a risk factor for covid complications, isn’t it?
 
27lw said:
Okay, I can’t help but notice that you said in your very first post that you have CAD. That’s coronary artery disease, right? It appears to me that CAD is considered a risk factor for covid complications, isn’t it?
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I do, but it is mild and stable and my doc says I’m in good shape and not at an increased risk. I want to keep it that way. I don’t care if the “experts” say that a mask won’t hurt me, masks are hot on my face, & it feels like I have to make a concerted effort to breath at times and it certainly isn’t natural.

Plus, has anyone noticed that we are told that by wearing a mask we are showing that we care about others & we are keeping our exhaust vapor from infecting others. If masks work so well, won’t they work in the reverse and protect the wearer from our exhaust? I’m just saying!!!

How would we react as a nation if we were told that we had to wear masks for the rest of our lives? Already my little grandchildren, despite their parents assurances that they are safe, are afraid to go to the grocery store with their mom. The psychological damage to a young child is irreversible.

If you haven’t taken a look at this CDC report on masks, it’s an eye opener. It Is dated May 2020, so it must have been conducted prior to the “politicization” of the mask issue.


As far as the dispensation goes, I don’t like missing out on The Body of Christ.

Remember, “people will take as much advantage over you as you let them.” And that especially includes the government!!!

God Bless,
Thomas
 
Its awful here. There is NO mandate in my state of Iowa that requires masks. (I think 2 major cities do, but thats it.)

The ONLY public place required is Mass. Not required in restaurants, bars, gas stations, markets. Just during work hours and Mass… very ridiculous.
 
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WillC said:
The ONLY public place required is Mass. Not required in restaurants, bars, gas stations, markets. Just during work hours and Mass… very ridiculous.
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Is that by order the Bishops?

Thomas
 
I have no clue. I’d imagine so since its not a state or city mandate. I dont see the priests enforcing it by themselves. Neither seem like they would if it wasn’t state enforced.
 
Uniquemom said:
They are not real Christians
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How do you define a “real Christian”? Their behavior in that moment may not have been Christ like, but I would dare say we all have moments where we fall short
 
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farronwolf said:
We should believe the experts in the field. I just listened to one of them and he said masks are key.

Have you seen the death certificates and how it was listed. or are you just going on hearsay.
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Hmmmm, because I am an engineer, I am a SME in my narrow field of engineering. That doesn’t mean that I can’t be wrong.

The expert that you reference says that “masks are key.” So he disagrees with the May 2020 CDC report and the “experts” that were behind the mega-study of 10 RCTs? Does that not trouble anyone?

The CDC “experts” stated the following in their report:

In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks”


So who’s “experts” are right? I’ll go with the “experts” that were in action before covid was politicized.

And, obviously I didn’t ask my friends for a copy of their loved one’s DCs. How Christian would that be? When they tell me that they died of terminal lung cancer & long time heart disease with prior heart attacks, I didn’t ask for their medical records either. I believed them. Silly me. 😃

Thomas
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My wife & I went to a Traditional Latin (Tridentine) Mass today in another city. I had not been to one in a long, long time.

I need to brush up on my Latin, as I was lost.

There were maybe 50 people there and only one person had a mask on. I asked a nice young lady after mass whether or not there was a mask policy and she said that they were recommended by the Bishop, but that no one wears them as they don’t work.

So, it appears that in this wonderful country of ours, there is still a glimmer of freedom and independent thought. 😃

Thomas
 
Ok. I will play.

Those studies were done in what location. Were they done in homes with prolonged exposure to the sick individuals. Or were they done in a public setting with social distancing in place.

What do the studies say about the certainty that the masks were worn.

As an engineer and knowing scientific method, if the studies weren’t done as per cdc recommendations for this virus how applicable are they.

Kind of like a structural test of steel at 80f and applying it to a usage in a minus 100f or a 300f setting. Would you go forward with the 80f data.

Dont really want your opinion, want what environment the actual studies were done.
 
farronwolf said:
Those studies were done in what location. Were they done in homes with prolonged exposure to the sick individuals. Or were they done in a public setting with social distancing in place.
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Did you read the study?

RCTs are “controlled” so that all aspects of the study stay within the parameters of the study. If not, “control” is lost. If someone goes outside of the “control scenario” they are dropped out of the study.

Think of when Lipitor was studied in a RCT.
If someone missed even one dose, they were dropped out of the study.

This is why Fauci wants RCTs. So that every aspect is kept in control.

Read the following to learn about studies and how some are good, some are flawed and some are destined to fail.


Thomas
 
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You might have missed this part.

One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group ( 33 ). Two studies in university settings assessed the effectiveness of face masks for primary protection by monitoring the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among student hall residents for 5 months ( 9 , 10 ). The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies ( 9 , 10 ). Study designs in the 7 household studies were slightly different: 1 study provided face masks and P2 respirators for household contacts only ( 34 ), another study evaluated face mask use as a source control for infected persons only ( 35 ), and the remaining studies provided masks for the infected persons as well as their close contacts ( 11 – 13 , 15 , 17 ). None of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group ( 11 – 13 , 15 , 17 , 34 , 35 ). Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group.

So tell me just how these studies apply to the measures recommended by CDC where you are encouraged to social distance. There were studies of people in close proximity for long periods of time. Not the same as current CDC recommendations for interactions for the public to avoid transmission of COVID.

Come on, you seem smarter than that.
 
farronwolf said:
So tell me just how these studies apply to the measures recommended by CDC where you are encouraged to social distance. There were studies of people in close proximity for long periods of time. Not the same as current CDC recommendations for interactions for the public to avoid transmission of COVID.

Come on, you seem smarter than that.
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Hmmm, Can you tell me where I said that we shouldn’t social distance?

I think that people who come to church Sick with colds with colds & then shake hands at church, like we used to, should be put on a two-week suspension.

My point is that there is no science that says masks work and what you quoted from the CDC above supports my point.

Show me an RCT that shows that wearing a mask, that only stops a portion of a virus, actually works.

Didn’t the CDC today state that, once again, they were wrong and that Covid does not always attached to a water droplet of one’s exhaust? If that is the case, my point is further solidified because no mask is airtight, not even an N95 that is hardly worn by the public. In fact, shouldn’t this virus have been so bad that we are a Monty Python movie with a guy with a cart crying out “bring out your dead?”

Also surgical masks are meant for one use and virtually all of us use them for days until they wear out. Cloth masks, like gators, don’t work at all. So where is the science here?

And, being in “close proximity” for long periods of time seems to fit the description of my church, all pews are now open and people can be within 2 - 3 feet of each other for close to an hour and a half. Then, they hang around in the back of the church talking to each other from 1 to 2 feet away blowing air right through and around their masks. Then some of them actually go out and eat lunch together in a restaurant that requires no masks. I guess they should all have Covid by now according to the CDC.

I hope that you caught the three world class immunologist on Laura Ingram this evening that stated that lockdowns don’t work and it in 3 to 6 months this virus would’ve been gone had we just let people go about their lives & do smart things like stay home if you’re sick.

I’m also a veteran and it sickens me to know that veteran suicides have risen from 21 per day because of this virus & the basic shutdown of VA hospitals. Veterans that need mental health help for PTSD, anxiety, TBI and many other problems are basically locked out of there VA Hospital‘s. A friend of mine‘s mental health visits are now via telephone and he says that that just isn’t hacking it for him.

Also, people have avoided getting colonoscopies, chemotherapy, dialysis, etc. Etc. Etc. due to the fear that has been pushed on us.

I could go on and on, but nothing I say is expected to change anyone’s mind. People don’t change their minds on religion, politics or Covid.

This just in…another MD’s analysis of Covid & death statistics & masks.

https://mynorthwest.com/2019490/herman-media-covid-masks-work-schools/?

Not to sound like Fox Mulder, but “The truth is out there.” You just have to tune out MSM & look for it.

God Bless,
Thomas
 
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