Masonic Conspiracy Theory

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rumil
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The person who wrote the quoted material below–in reply to my (obviously failed) sarcasm about relativism–
beischel said:
Exactly, which really applies to the books on Masonry. A reasonable person would apply the same standard of review to both.
Click to expand...
did not seem to apply the same standard in the following case:
beischel said:
Didn’t the pope even recently change his position on condoms? Disguised as something about preventing disease which comes about from illicit sexual behavior in the first place so I am not sure what exactly he was getting to, but sounded like a change in a moral position to me.
Click to expand...
Seems to me that getting one’s “facts” from a biased and incomplete source is what he is accusing some of us of doing, while he is doing just that.

The Key to Good Research according to beischel?
beischel said:
From a historical perspective, it looks very accurate and is in line with other books I’ve read on the subject in the past.
Click to expand...
I don’t think this discussion can have a satisfactory conclusion.

:banghead:
 
rickpaul said:
Masonry is not Anti-Catholic. Some Masons may be.
Popes have been Anti-Masonic. Some Catholics are.

It seems to me that this is all very divisive. We’re not allowed to have these discussions within the lodge. Thank God.

Please don’t consult hysterical conspiracy theorists on the “truth” about masonry. Just as one wouldn’t consult Jack Chick on the “truth” about the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
In fact Masonry is anti Catholic and that’s why so many Popes have condemned it… it is not Christian, it is not compatible with Catholic beliefs.

Also how do you know that you know everything about masonry… how do you know that you’re getting all the information. Just a thought.

Pope Benedict signed a document that says that any Catholic involved in Masonry is excommunicated. It’s still valid today.
 
OK, I will not comment further on celibacy and how the Church abandoned apostolic tradition of married priests and I have tried to start a new thread with a question to the apologists.

As for Masonry and all the sources displayed in previous messages, all I can say is many of the text noted are not official masonic works, but works written my Masons. Some have been completely discredited by official masonic sources. Some were written to merely discredit Masonry.

Since no one wants to believe someone who has been a Mason and who never experienced most of the things noted in many forum posts about Masons (devil worship - never happened for if it did, Masonry would have zero members; multiple gods - no such thing; teaching religion in the lodges - never happens; Lucifer as the Masonic god - please, just is a lie - again, if this were the case, there would be no members; I could go on, but why? No one believes a first hand account so further discussion is getting useless.

But having done a lot of thinking last night, and I will discuss this with my parish priest (great guy and a priests priest so to speak), what I think concerns me the most is that most of you commenting here take everything the Church says on “faith and morals” to be infallible. On the surface, that seems the absolute right thing to do.

So here is where I get concerned with unquestionable faith. If the Third Secret of Fatima is really about vast corruption and evil coming into the Church, and no one in the Church is willing to question future corrupted statements on “faith and morals”, then aren’t we allowing and even abetting the corruption with the blind, devoted and unquestionable faith?

See I really don’t object to the debate here on Masonry. I merely tried to point out the many of the perceptions of Masonic organizations are wrong. Flat out wrong. And what I experienced was completely moral. What I have difficulty with is that some have unquestionable faith “the Church said it, that’s the way it is, I believe it, end of story.”

Frankly, I have a lot of difficulty with that - especially when I think something is wrong. So if, God forbid, the corruption and evil comes into the Church, then who will stand-up and question it or object to it, if it is put out to the faithful as an “issue of faith and morals”?
 
beischel said:
LOL, very funny!
Click to expand...
The real rulers of our nation are members of the council of foreign relations…we see them on teevee,read their mag and so many members tell us just what is planned…a one world gov…no real nations,just zones,constant no win wars,open borders to cause more unrest and thus more need for martial law,the breakdown of marriage,changing the deftintions of words to fit their agenda etc etc.and its they who control the media and slop out this nonsense about the masons as well as lampoon the RCC church re: davinci code nonsense etc etc…like the magician,he has us look at his right hand ,for it is always moving,but his left hand in slowly taking our wallet from our pocket!!!1I delivered a speech to a local Masonic lodge and I used ,as my begiinning ,just such comments as I read here…the old dollar bill,the eye on the pyramid etc etc…one of the Masons most notable members was constantly attacked by the communist work and to this day is attacked in the media…this to me tells me a lot but to some their minds are clouded like pavlovs mutts and they are conditioned to salivate on cue…
 
jam070406 said:
Even Romanian Orthodox monks recognize the dangers of Freemasonry.

youtube.com/watch?v=m-RdNeKlFs8&playnext=1&list=PL63600786AE0E4ED6&index=1
Click to expand...
Interesting, if I understand the video correctly, it appears the initial introduction not only blames Masonry, but also celibacy. I said I would not bring the issue up again, but thought it interesting that a video you want to use against one of my arguments, actually supports another.

The Orthodox priest is quoted as saying “Why should I stay together with those who made women priests, with those who do not marry (celibacy), with the homosexuals, in America and England?”

So if we are going to use other religions to support the anti-Masonic position, then we should also look to them for their wisdom on the evils of celibacy.

Thanks, very enlightening.
 
beischel said:
Wow, as I watch the rest of the video, it seems to condemn the Catholic Church. Are you sure you want to use it going forward? It appears to lump Freemasonry and the Catholic Church together in terms of the evils of Ecumenism.
Click to expand...
He shows the mindset that has crept into the West, even the Catholic Church (which he wrongly lumps together) from the influence of Masonry. It makes it even more tragic that he would not engage in dialouge with Catholics because this minset has so seeped in that he views the two as one and the same. When in reality, as pointed out, the Church has condemned Masonry time and again.
 
beischel said:
{snip}
See I really don’t object to the debate here on Masonry. I merely tried to point out the many of the perceptions of Masonic organizations are wrong. Flat out wrong. And what I experienced was completely moral. What I have difficulty with is that some have unquestionable faith “the Church said it, that’s the way it is, I believe it, end of story.”

Frankly, I have a lot of difficulty with that - especially when I think something is wrong. So if, God forbid, the corruption and evil comes into the Church, then who will stand-up and question it or object to it, if it is put out to the faithful as an “issue of faith and morals”?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately for you, your difficulty doesn’t change the truth of the matter. The Church’s instruction are not arbitrary and they are not based on “many of the perceptions of Masonic organizations”. Her explanations for her position are plainly spelled out in the official documents.

The human members of the Church will always be sinners. However, Jesus promised that these sinners would not corrupt the Church.
 
davidv said:
Unfortunately for you, your difficulty doesn’t change the truth of the matter. The Church’s instruction are not arbitrary and they are not based on “many of the perceptions of Masonic organizations”. Her explanations for her position are plainly spelled out in the official documents.

The human members of the Church will always be sinners. However, Jesus promised that these sinners would not corrupt the Church.
Click to expand...
Great, now please address my last point on questioning the Church, the third secret of Fatima and evil and corruption in the Church please.
 
davidv said:
Why? I think it is a red herring and off topic.
Click to expand...
Because it does indeed tie into the Masonic discussion. But, I can understand why would not want to address the subject for obvious reasons. Maybe someone else here would like to tackle it.
 
beischel said:
Because it does indeed tie into the Masonic discussion. But, I can understand why would not want to address the subject for obvious reasons. Maybe someone else here would like to tackle it.
Click to expand...
Catholics are not bound to believe Marian apparitions. Even so, prudence on the part of the Church about when or how the messages of Fatima were to be revealed to the faithful is alot different then Catholics swearing secret oathes (to who?) in a secret lodge, in a secret society that has been the enemy of the Church since it’s inception.
 
jam070406 said:
Catholics are not bound to believe Marian apparitions. Even so, prudence on the part of the Church about when or how the messages of Fatima were to be revealed to the faithful is alot different then Catholics swearing secret oathes (to who?) in a secret lodge, in a secret society that had been the enemy of the Church since it’s inception.
Click to expand...
Didn’t say they were bound. The question is, IF the Third Secret of Fatima is evil and corruption in the Church, and no one questions Church statements on matters of faith or morals, and the corrupted Church makes invalid statements of faith and morals, if no one here will question said corrupted statements on faith and morals, aren’t we then simply abetting the propagation of corruption and evil in the Church? That is the question which has no immediate bearing on oaths, etc.
 
beischel said:
Didn’t say they were bound. The question is, IF the Third Secret of Fatima is evil and corruption in the Church, and no one questions Church statements on matters of faith or morals, and the corrupted Church makes invalid statements of faith and morals, if no one here will question said corrupted statements on faith and morals, aren’t we then simply abetting the propagation of corruption and evil in the Church? That is the question which has no immediate bearing on oaths, etc.
Click to expand...
Evil and corruption comes from disobeying the Church, ultimately God, so I don’t understand your point. :confused:
 
jam070406 said:
Evil and corruption comes from disobeying the Church, ultimately God, so I don’t understand your point. :confused:
Click to expand...
That is corruption among the faithful. I am referring to corruption and evil within the actual hierarchy of the Church.
 
beischel said:
Didn’t say they were bound. The question is, IF the Third Secret of Fatima is evil and corruption in the Church, and no one questions Church statements on matters of faith or morals, and the corrupted Church makes invalid statements of faith and morals, if no one here will question said corrupted statements on faith and morals, aren’t we then simply abetting the propagation of corruption and evil in the Church? That is the question which has no immediate bearing on oaths, etc.
Click to expand...
However corrupt some members of the hierarchy may be (and I do believe some have been and are such) the Holy Spirit protects the Church from officially teaching error re faith and morals. The Church has consistently and without error taught that Freemasonry is inimical to Christianity and thus membership is forbidden to Catholics.

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus_en.html
 
FCEGM said:
However corrupt some members of the hierarchy may be (and I do believe some have been and are such) the Holy Spirit protects the Church from officially teaching error re faith and morals. The Church has consistently and without error taught that Freemasonry is inimical to Christianity and thus membership is forbidden to Catholics.

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus_en.html
Click to expand...
Pretty weak response. If the 3rd Secret comes to fruition, corruption and evil will not abide by the guidance of Holy Spirit. Therefore, corrupt members of the hierarchy or even a corrupt future pope could indeed make pronouncements on faith and morals which are inherently corrupt themselves. The position that a corrupt and evil person, could not teach corruption on faith and morals is simply illogical.
 
beischel said:
Pretty weak response. If the 3rd Secret comes to fruition, corruption and evil will not abide by the guidance of Holy Spirit. Therefore, corrupt members of the hierarchy or even a corrupt future pope could indeed make pronouncements on faith and morals which are inherently corrupt themselves. The position that a corrupt and evil person, could not teach corruption on faith and morals is simply illogical.
Click to expand...
So you’re trying to justify your association with the lodge by saying that the hierarchy that says it is wrong could possibly be corrupted and evil! Wow!
 
jam070406 said:
So you’re trying to justify your association with the lodge by saying that the hierarchy that says it is wrong could possibly be corrupted and evil! Wow!
Click to expand...
No absolutely not. I am completely agreeing with you. I am out of the Masons. I think they are not treated fairly BUT, that being said, if the Church says it wrong, I did indeed leave because of that revelation. It’s over, done, end of story.

What was brought up time and time again is the unquestionable acceptance of the Church’s teaching on faith and morals. Church said Masons bad, so they must be bad. End of story, no question. I’m not happy with it, but that’s the way it is.

However, I want an answer and maybe it is not something you have the knowledge to answer. The question is, IF the Third Secret of Fatima is evil and corruption in the Church, and no one questions Church statements on matters of faith or morals, and the corrupted Church makes invalid statements of faith and morals, if no one here will question said corrupted statements on faith and morals, aren’t we then simply abetting the propagation of corruption and evil in the Church?

It’s not a question of whether or not you believe in the Our Lady of Fatima - obviously Pope John Paul II did, so if he believed I will believe it. So if he interpreted the 3rd secret incorrectly, and if the 3rd secret is indeed about the coming (maybe already here, who knows) of evil and corruption in the Church as many Catholic writers have revealed, then how can the faithful oppose it if everything is accepted without question. It may just be a philosophical question you are incapable of answering. It is quite puzzling to me, hence why I asked it.
 
beischel said:
No absolutely not. I am completely agreeing with you. I am out of the Masons. I think they are not treated fairly BUT, that being said, if the Church says it wrong, I did indeed leave because of that revelation. It’s over, done, end of story.

What was brought up time and time again is the unquestionable acceptance of the Church’s teaching on faith and morals. Church said Masons bad, so they must be bad. End of story, no question. I’m not happy with it, but that’s the way it is.

However, I want an answer and maybe it is not something you have the knowledge to answer. The question is, IF the Third Secret of Fatima is evil and corruption in the Church, and no one questions Church statements on matters of faith or morals, and the corrupted Church makes invalid statements of faith and morals, if no one here will question said corrupted statements on faith and morals, aren’t we then simply abetting the propagation of corruption and evil in the Church?

It’s not a question of whether or not you believe in the Our Lady of Fatima - obviously Pope John Paul II did, so if he believed I will believe it. So if he interpreted the 3rd secret incorrectly, and if the 3rd secret is indeed about the coming (maybe already here, who knows) of evil and corruption in the Church as many Catholic writers have revealed, then how can the faithful oppose it if everything is accepted without question. It may just be a philosophical question you are incapable of answering. It is quite puzzling to me, hence why I asked it.
Click to expand...
That’s what the Magisterum is for. Truth doesn’t change. The Holy Spirit guides and protects the Church and the office of St. Peter, like you’ll been told. But you seem to lack belief. The Church doesn’t reinvent the wheel. It safeguards the Truth passed down through the ages. If a person of the Hierarchy contradicts the Magisterum then you don’t follow him, just like Saints have said. Why are you so puzzled? It’s easy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top