C
Candide_West
Guest
So you are another who believes God fooled people into believing something was happening when it was not.
Does the idea of God decieving people not concern you?
- Status
Does the idea of God decieving people not concern you?
A
atheistgirl
Guest
We know people see things that aren’t really there, or not really happening. We know people can hallucinate, or become deluded, for all sorts of reasons.
If the sun didn’t dance or move or spin, but it was caused to appear to do so, this means people saw something that didn’t actually happen.
We know this happens to people.
So it’s not miraculous is it?
Sarah x
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
The miracle (which, BTW, I am also not sure of believing) is that a miracle was supposed to happen that day, it was supposed to happen to the sun, at that time, and a large number of people saw it including atheists.We know people see things that aren’t really there, or not really happening. We know people can hallucinate, or become deluded, for all sorts of reasons.
If the sun didn’t dance or move or spin, but it was caused to appear to do so, this means people saw something that didn’t actually happen.
We know this happens to people.
So it’s not miraculous is it?
Sarah x
A
atheistgirl
Guest
Nothing I’ve read about Fatima states what kind of miracle was going to happen was known before hand.
Just that something was going to happen.
Sarah x
I
itullian
Guest
i think i read that many there didn’t see anything:shrug:
Hi Sarah
Hi Sarah
A
atheistgirl
Guest
I’ve read the same.
Another thing I read, was the miracle was supposed to have been promised to mark Mary’s last appearance to the children, so others would believe.
But Lucia says Mary appeared to her in 1925 in her convent.
Hi itullianHi Sarah
:hug1:
Sarah x
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
Interesting Sarah. I used to be really big on the Fatima miracle, but the more I learned about it the less impressed I became.
As a Catholic I will say that devotion to Mary is extremely important, and if the miracle at Fatima helped increase Marian devotion then great! I’m just not sure if what happened that day was exactly as is commonly told.
Some atheists saw something, some didn’t. Some believers saw something, some didn’t. The details of the miracle that was supposed to occur were very vague (although it is true that Mary is associated with the sun, so there’s a connection there).
So was there a miracle? I don’t know. Did it happen exactly as most accounts say it did? I don’t know. BUT-I’m not necessarily dismissing it out of hand, and I’m happy Marian devotion increased.
As a Catholic I will say that devotion to Mary is extremely important, and if the miracle at Fatima helped increase Marian devotion then great!
I’m just not sure if what happened that day was exactly as is commonly told.Some atheists saw something, some didn’t. Some believers saw something, some didn’t. The details of the miracle that was supposed to occur were very vague (although it is true that Mary is associated with the sun, so there’s a connection there).
So was there a miracle? I don’t know. Did it happen exactly as most accounts say it did? I don’t know. BUT-I’m not necessarily dismissing it out of hand, and I’m happy Marian devotion increased.
A
atheistgirl
Guest
It’s good the Church doesn’t require madatory belief in such miracles, or at least those that occured after the the time of public revelation closed with the last Apostle.
I can understand that from your point of view.I’m happy Marian devotion increased.
Sarah x
P
Poof
Guest
I’ve read about “many not seeing the miracle” as well, but unfortunately, this information only happens to pop out in skeptic sites and to make things more interesting, they provide no quotations of testimonies or sources to back up their statements (“cough” zero “cough”). Gee, I wonder why.
I invite you to name 3 witnesses who claimed to not have seen the miracle.
P
Poof
Guest
Here’s a compilation of posts of mine from another Fatima thread.
Fatima Miracle of the Sun
“Among the crowd were scientists and “unbelievers” who viewed the phenomenon not only with objectivity, but with particular care to protect themselves from the possibility of collective suggestion”.
"Baron of Alvaiazere, who carefully took all precautions outlined by Gustave le Bon in his ‘Psychology of the Crowd’. The Baron had not expected a miracle and wanted to be sure that he would not be the victim of suggestion. He died in 1955, and in a deposition to the Canonical Committee he stated: “…An indescribable impression overtook me I only know that I cried out: ‘I believe! I believe! I believe!’ And tears ran from my eyes. I was amazed, in ecstasy before the demonstration of divine power”.
"Pio Sciatizzi, S.J., scientist who published a critique of the Miracle in Rome, says: “Of the historic reality of this event there can be no doubt whatsover. That it was outside and aganist known laws can be proved by certain simple scientific considerations…Given the indubitable reference to God, and the general context of the event, it seems that we must attribute to Him alone the most obvious and colossal miracle of history…”
**Fatima could not have been the result of mass hypnosis, collective suggestion or the result of sun staring because…
**
B) Albano Barros witnessed it as he was tending his sheep.
C) Father Joaquim witnessed it when he was still a school boy. They were having classes until they heard the “surprised shouts” of a crowd of people outside their school. Together with the class, Joaquin ran out to see what was happening and saw the miracle.
D) Mario Godinho was at the Cova but he didn’t believe anything would happen. His family wanted him to take them and so he did. He didn’t bother leaving his car as he believed nothing would happen. He was proved wrong.
Why would Mary invite everyone to go to the Cova to see a miracle if it was going to be seen by everyone on the planet in the first place?
Also, If one were to denounce the authenticity of the miracle then he/she must also conclude that the three seers were either liars or lunatics.
If children were liars and the the miracle of the sun was the result of chance, a mere coincidence, or just some giant magic trick set to deceive the public, keep in mind that the three children were subjected to 48 hours of imprisonment by the government. They were threatened to death by boiling oil and were interrogated separately, yet, not a single one of them faltered. Two of the three children died at a young age while the oldest one lived a pious, holy life as a nun and just passed away recently.
The miracle’s effect on Portugal
The powerful Portuguese goverment, which had ruled for 7 years with an incredible anti-clerical mood had failed. It strongly espoused atheism, vowing that it would wipe religion within two generations. Lisbon, was the atheist capital of the world and a few years after the miracle of the sun, it was no longer. The miracle converted an enormous amount of atheists, those at the crowd who witnessed it and others who were swayed by evidence and testimony. In fact, Antonio Maria da Silva himself, who was the nominal founder of the goverment party, was one of the notable figures that converted. O Seculo, one of the two most prominent newspapers of Portugal during that time (and one known for being “predominantly anti-religious”, attested to the event). And as you can imagine, their testimony caused a lot of controversy, especially since they had been ridiculing the children and the “prophesied miracle” prior to its happening.
Fatima Miracle of the Sun
- The time and place of the event was predicted three months in advance.
- The miracle both began and ended abruptly.
- “The sun danced around, sending off great shafts of colored light which tinted objects on the ground. It plummeted towards the earth after several minutes, assuming such a gigantic nearness that the tens of thousands of witnesses thought it was the end of the world.” The sun stopped just as it was about to hit the earth and returned to it’s position prior to the miracle.
- The witnesses could look at the sun without harm.“Doctor Garrett, a professor from the University of Coimbra…feared some impairment to his retina, covered his eyes and turned to the opposite direction, opened his eyes again…and continued to see the miracle”
- The ground, together with the clothes of the ground, which had been drenched by constant hours of rain, suddenly dried up. After the miracle ended, a strong wind hit the Cova, yet the trees remained unaffacted…after a few minutes, everything was dry.
- The miracle was witnessed by people in and out of the crowd over a radius of 20 miles.
- The varied types of witnesses ranging from doctors, professors, journalists…“persons of every category and class” as including both skeptics and believers alike.
- The huge amount of people present at the Cova ranging from 40,000 to 100,000 individuals.
“Among the crowd were scientists and “unbelievers” who viewed the phenomenon not only with objectivity, but with particular care to protect themselves from the possibility of collective suggestion”.
"Baron of Alvaiazere, who carefully took all precautions outlined by Gustave le Bon in his ‘Psychology of the Crowd’. The Baron had not expected a miracle and wanted to be sure that he would not be the victim of suggestion. He died in 1955, and in a deposition to the Canonical Committee he stated: “…An indescribable impression overtook me I only know that I cried out: ‘I believe! I believe! I believe!’ And tears ran from my eyes. I was amazed, in ecstasy before the demonstration of divine power”.
"Pio Sciatizzi, S.J., scientist who published a critique of the Miracle in Rome, says: “Of the historic reality of this event there can be no doubt whatsover. That it was outside and aganist known laws can be proved by certain simple scientific considerations…Given the indubitable reference to God, and the general context of the event, it seems that we must attribute to Him alone the most obvious and colossal miracle of history…”
**Fatima could not have been the result of mass hypnosis, collective suggestion or the result of sun staring because…
**
- “It was witnessed over a large area by persons not in the crowd” Citing a few examples…
B) Albano Barros witnessed it as he was tending his sheep.
C) Father Joaquim witnessed it when he was still a school boy. They were having classes until they heard the “surprised shouts” of a crowd of people outside their school. Together with the class, Joaquin ran out to see what was happening and saw the miracle.
D) Mario Godinho was at the Cova but he didn’t believe anything would happen. His family wanted him to take them and so he did. He didn’t bother leaving his car as he believed nothing would happen. He was proved wrong.
- Witnesses say that they could look upon the sun “without harm to the eyes.”
- “Among the crowd were scientists and “unbelievers” who viewed the phenomenon not only with objectivity, but with particular care to protect themselves from the possibility of collective suggestion”.
- There were no complaints of eye pains after the event.
- The ground together with the people’s clothes, which were drenched by constant hours of rain, suddenly dried up (It rained so hard that there was a good three inches of water on the ground). I’m guessing this drying up is the result of sun-staring as well?
- According to the witnesses “the sun” that they saw
A) looked exactly like the sun.
B) came from and went back to the location of the sun.
C) was the only sun-like object in the sky.
That’s precisely the point. Three months prior to the miracle, the Virgin Mary invited everyone to go to the Cova on the prophesied day, promising a miracle so that “all may believe”. People came, some traveling for several miles, taking trains, cars, etc…and on that day, a miracle happened, yet, astronomical and meteorological observatories were unable to record it. Tbis proves that the miracle was a local and exclusive one. It was available to everyone over a radius of 20 miles from the Cova. God twisted the laws of the universe, making such a miracle possible without any negative effects (on the earth) whatsoever.
Why would Mary invite everyone to go to the Cova to see a miracle if it was going to be seen by everyone on the planet in the first place?
Also, If one were to denounce the authenticity of the miracle then he/she must also conclude that the three seers were either liars or lunatics.
If children were liars and the the miracle of the sun was the result of chance, a mere coincidence, or just some giant magic trick set to deceive the public, keep in mind that the three children were subjected to 48 hours of imprisonment by the government. They were threatened to death by boiling oil and were interrogated separately, yet, not a single one of them faltered. Two of the three children died at a young age while the oldest one lived a pious, holy life as a nun and just passed away recently.
The miracle’s effect on Portugal
The powerful Portuguese goverment, which had ruled for 7 years with an incredible anti-clerical mood had failed. It strongly espoused atheism, vowing that it would wipe religion within two generations. Lisbon, was the atheist capital of the world and a few years after the miracle of the sun, it was no longer. The miracle converted an enormous amount of atheists, those at the crowd who witnessed it and others who were swayed by evidence and testimony. In fact, Antonio Maria da Silva himself, who was the nominal founder of the goverment party, was one of the notable figures that converted. O Seculo, one of the two most prominent newspapers of Portugal during that time (and one known for being “predominantly anti-religious”, attested to the event). And as you can imagine, their testimony caused a lot of controversy, especially since they had been ridiculing the children and the “prophesied miracle” prior to its happening.
J
joe370
Guest
This is a great post but I seriously doubt it will make a difference to the folks here at CAF claiming to be atheists. I think it seems reasonable to conclude that unless God personally interacts with them, they will, never believe. But I could be wrong…
L
Linusthe2nd
Guest
Certainly is nice to see our usual group of friends out in force to throw rocks at all those gullible Catholics. Well, have your fun. But it might be a surprise for you to learn that Catholics are not required to believe in these appearances or in any other miracle except those that occurred in the time of Our Lord and the Apostles and in O.T. times. But of course it would be foolish not to believe in those at least that the Popes believed in. Really, you folks are missing out on so much, it really is a shame, your lives could be so much more full and meaningful.
A
atheistgirl
Guest
A
aragonjohn1
Guest
some more info
When the Mother of God began appearing in Fatima in 13 May of 1917, state terrorists did everything in their power to force Jacinta, Francisco and Lucia to deny the truth of the revelations. In order that all might believe in the contents of the Fatima message, Mary announced that a spectacular wonder would take place on October 13, 1917. Specifying the place and time, she stated that the miracle would be a special sign from God, enabling everyone to believe in the Fatima message. Using all the propaganda tools at their disposal, the atheistic powers did everything they could to prevent the people from gathering at the site of the revelations on October 13. Soldier units were even dispatched to block access to the site. However, the determination of the people, and the sheer number of them, was so great that all these efforts on the part of the authorities were futile.
On October 13, 1917, an enormous crowd, over 70 thousand strong, gathered at the site of the revelations. Many had to cover hundreds of miles, mostly on foot, by donkey, cart or automobile. Among them were simple folk but also skeptically inclined intellectuals, journalists, and non-believers
The soldiers of the National Guard tried in vain to prevent the crowds from entering the valley known as the Cova da Iria. As the throng burst through at one end and the soldiers scrambled to cordon it off, the people would seize the occasion and break through at the other end. The troops could not control the crowds. All in all, some 70 thousand people succeeded in getting through to the site. The three young seers stood by a great holm oak. The sky was dark and overcast, and a heavy rain drenched the crowds. All were soaked to the skin, up to their ankles in mud and water. Suddenly the rain stopped and the sun broke through the clouds. Like a flaming disk radiating colored light, the sun began spiraling down toward the earth. A cosmic collision of the sun and earth seemed imminent. People began to cry out in terror. Some, thinking this was the end of the world, began confessing their sins aloud. Many remained on their feet, but many others knelt down, sobbing and praying. This extraordinary phenomenon lasted 10 minutes. Within that time the rain-soaked earth dried out completely. The people’s clothing also dried out, looking fresh as if it had just come out of the laundry. Thousands of conversions took place during that spectacular miracle. Highly educated, intelligent people were stunned, dumbfounded like little children.
In his official pastoral letter on the miracle, the Bishop of Fatima observed: Thousands of people witnessed the dancing of the sun. People of diverse groups and social classes saw it: believers, non-believers, journalists of Portugal’s leading dailies, and even people who had not been part of the crowd.
Scripture calls miracles the finger of God (Ex. 8:15; Lk. 11:20). The miracle of the sun was a phenomenon that had never occurred in the history of mankind. For the first time since the Resurrection of Christ, God, intending to underscore the reality of His revelations, wrought this spectacular sign at an appointed time and place. Scholar Pio Sciatizzi, who witnessed the miracle, observed: There cannot be the slightest doubt with regard to the historicity of this event. Only to God can we ascribe this greatest and most manifest of miracles ever to take place in history.
The chief Masonic powers ruling Portugal at this time were connected with the secret organization called “Carbonaria,” whose founder was Antonio De Silva. Alfonso Costa and M. Lima headed the organization. On that memorable October 13th of 1917, Silva, an engineer by profession, saw the miracle of the sun. He was one of the first freemasons to bend his knee before the awe-inspiring miracle. Soon after, he began talking about a rapprochement with the Church. Infuriated by this, his comrades subjected him to a campaign of slander and abuse. He found himself in peril of his life. With many in their midst suddenly converting after the miracle, the atheistic government tried to purge itself of elements which had “succumbed” to the miracle. Numerous attempts were made by the organs of mass media to ridicule the event and its tens of thousands of witnesses. The Masonic lodges mounted a truly diabolic campaign to deride and mock Catholics and their faith. They put on blasphemous parades. Talks and speeches denying the existence of God were staged at the site of the revelations in Fatima. At the same time, stern measures were put in place to prevent the Church from organizing any kind of religious assembly or procession. Propaganda agencies were charged by the Masonic rulers to conduct operations throughout Portugal. Leaflets and pamphlets were published, ridiculing the revelations and priests (especially the Jesuits), who were viewed as the main offenders.
Yet all this sacrilegious plundering, pamphleteering and mockery brought on the very opposite of the desired effect. It resulted in the Portuguese people accepting Fatima and strengthening their Catholic faith. The miracle of the sun and the Fatima message indicated that the fate of the atheistic revolution in Portugal was already sealed. Resistance within the society grew steadily, while deep divisions began to show up among the ruling authorities. In short order, the revolutionaries allowed one of their conservatives, Sidonio Pais, to assume the office of president. But Pais proved to be more and more liberal in religious matters. As a result, he was fatally shot less than a year after his rise to power. He died on the operating table with a crucifix on his chest. His death was followed by a period known as the “time of absolute terror”. Random bomb explosions became a daily event throughout Portugal. Terror was the means by which the freemasons tried at all costs to cling to power.
Meanwhile, increasingly larger numbers of pilgrims were making their way into Fatima, despite the fact that the authorities sternly forbade this, even posting there powerful detachments of the Republican Guard and the army. Despite the state’s use of brutal force, the people were not daunted. In 1922, seeing that the throngs of pilgrims were constantly swelling, government agents blew up the chapel that had been erected at the sight of the revelations. More bombs exploded throughout the country, especially in Lisbon and Porto. But the faith of the people was stronger. It would not allow itself to be snuffed out. In 1927, the Masonic revolutionaries exhausted themselves in their murderous struggle with the Catholic faith. They yielded power to Olivier Salazar, a university professor and believer.
What happened to the leaders of the Masonic-atheistic revolution? M. Lima died, totally disillusioned. As for Alfonso Costa, he moved to Paris, where to everyone’s surprise, he abandoned atheism, took up spiritism, and ended his days tormented by his obsession with the supernatural. With all its pride, strength and capability of using terror, the powerful, anti-religious, Masonic government that ruled Portugal lost the battle. A paradox! It lost out to three illiterate peasant children, to whom the Mother of God had revealed her message.
Note: not just common people were there
God Bless
When the Mother of God began appearing in Fatima in 13 May of 1917, state terrorists did everything in their power to force Jacinta, Francisco and Lucia to deny the truth of the revelations. In order that all might believe in the contents of the Fatima message, Mary announced that a spectacular wonder would take place on October 13, 1917. Specifying the place and time, she stated that the miracle would be a special sign from God, enabling everyone to believe in the Fatima message. Using all the propaganda tools at their disposal, the atheistic powers did everything they could to prevent the people from gathering at the site of the revelations on October 13. Soldier units were even dispatched to block access to the site. However, the determination of the people, and the sheer number of them, was so great that all these efforts on the part of the authorities were futile.
On October 13, 1917, an enormous crowd, over 70 thousand strong, gathered at the site of the revelations. Many had to cover hundreds of miles, mostly on foot, by donkey, cart or automobile. Among them were simple folk but also skeptically inclined intellectuals, journalists, and non-believers
The soldiers of the National Guard tried in vain to prevent the crowds from entering the valley known as the Cova da Iria. As the throng burst through at one end and the soldiers scrambled to cordon it off, the people would seize the occasion and break through at the other end. The troops could not control the crowds. All in all, some 70 thousand people succeeded in getting through to the site. The three young seers stood by a great holm oak. The sky was dark and overcast, and a heavy rain drenched the crowds. All were soaked to the skin, up to their ankles in mud and water. Suddenly the rain stopped and the sun broke through the clouds. Like a flaming disk radiating colored light, the sun began spiraling down toward the earth. A cosmic collision of the sun and earth seemed imminent. People began to cry out in terror. Some, thinking this was the end of the world, began confessing their sins aloud. Many remained on their feet, but many others knelt down, sobbing and praying. This extraordinary phenomenon lasted 10 minutes. Within that time the rain-soaked earth dried out completely. The people’s clothing also dried out, looking fresh as if it had just come out of the laundry. Thousands of conversions took place during that spectacular miracle. Highly educated, intelligent people were stunned, dumbfounded like little children.
In his official pastoral letter on the miracle, the Bishop of Fatima observed: Thousands of people witnessed the dancing of the sun. People of diverse groups and social classes saw it: believers, non-believers, journalists of Portugal’s leading dailies, and even people who had not been part of the crowd.
Scripture calls miracles the finger of God (Ex. 8:15; Lk. 11:20). The miracle of the sun was a phenomenon that had never occurred in the history of mankind. For the first time since the Resurrection of Christ, God, intending to underscore the reality of His revelations, wrought this spectacular sign at an appointed time and place. Scholar Pio Sciatizzi, who witnessed the miracle, observed: There cannot be the slightest doubt with regard to the historicity of this event. Only to God can we ascribe this greatest and most manifest of miracles ever to take place in history.
The chief Masonic powers ruling Portugal at this time were connected with the secret organization called “Carbonaria,” whose founder was Antonio De Silva. Alfonso Costa and M. Lima headed the organization. On that memorable October 13th of 1917, Silva, an engineer by profession, saw the miracle of the sun. He was one of the first freemasons to bend his knee before the awe-inspiring miracle. Soon after, he began talking about a rapprochement with the Church. Infuriated by this, his comrades subjected him to a campaign of slander and abuse. He found himself in peril of his life. With many in their midst suddenly converting after the miracle, the atheistic government tried to purge itself of elements which had “succumbed” to the miracle. Numerous attempts were made by the organs of mass media to ridicule the event and its tens of thousands of witnesses. The Masonic lodges mounted a truly diabolic campaign to deride and mock Catholics and their faith. They put on blasphemous parades. Talks and speeches denying the existence of God were staged at the site of the revelations in Fatima. At the same time, stern measures were put in place to prevent the Church from organizing any kind of religious assembly or procession. Propaganda agencies were charged by the Masonic rulers to conduct operations throughout Portugal. Leaflets and pamphlets were published, ridiculing the revelations and priests (especially the Jesuits), who were viewed as the main offenders.
Yet all this sacrilegious plundering, pamphleteering and mockery brought on the very opposite of the desired effect. It resulted in the Portuguese people accepting Fatima and strengthening their Catholic faith. The miracle of the sun and the Fatima message indicated that the fate of the atheistic revolution in Portugal was already sealed. Resistance within the society grew steadily, while deep divisions began to show up among the ruling authorities. In short order, the revolutionaries allowed one of their conservatives, Sidonio Pais, to assume the office of president. But Pais proved to be more and more liberal in religious matters. As a result, he was fatally shot less than a year after his rise to power. He died on the operating table with a crucifix on his chest. His death was followed by a period known as the “time of absolute terror”. Random bomb explosions became a daily event throughout Portugal. Terror was the means by which the freemasons tried at all costs to cling to power.
Meanwhile, increasingly larger numbers of pilgrims were making their way into Fatima, despite the fact that the authorities sternly forbade this, even posting there powerful detachments of the Republican Guard and the army. Despite the state’s use of brutal force, the people were not daunted. In 1922, seeing that the throngs of pilgrims were constantly swelling, government agents blew up the chapel that had been erected at the sight of the revelations. More bombs exploded throughout the country, especially in Lisbon and Porto. But the faith of the people was stronger. It would not allow itself to be snuffed out. In 1927, the Masonic revolutionaries exhausted themselves in their murderous struggle with the Catholic faith. They yielded power to Olivier Salazar, a university professor and believer.
What happened to the leaders of the Masonic-atheistic revolution? M. Lima died, totally disillusioned. As for Alfonso Costa, he moved to Paris, where to everyone’s surprise, he abandoned atheism, took up spiritism, and ended his days tormented by his obsession with the supernatural. With all its pride, strength and capability of using terror, the powerful, anti-religious, Masonic government that ruled Portugal lost the battle. A paradox! It lost out to three illiterate peasant children, to whom the Mother of God had revealed her message.
Note: not just common people were there
- listverse.com/2008/07/14/top-10-astonishing-miracles/
- milujciesie.org.pl/nr/catholic_church/the_miracle_of_the1.html
- loamagazine.org/nr/catholic_church/the_miracle_of_the1.html
God Bless
J
John_of_Woking
Guest
Genuine miracle. Atheists are too narrow minded to look beyond the natural. Reason supports the view that it was a miracle. Fear of belief in God and the concomitant moral consequences which flow from such belief are the reasons for refusing to believe the EVIDENCE
J
John_of_Woking
Guest
Exactly. Typical unsubstantiated nonsense by the atheists. Again :yawn:I’ve read about “many not seeing the miracle” as well, but unfortunately, this information only happens to pop out in skeptic sites and to make things more interesting, they provide no quotations of testimonies or sources to back up their statements (“cough” zero “cough”). Gee, I wonder why.
I invite you to name 3 witnesses who claimed to not have seen the miracle.
C
Candide_West
Guest
Hey Poof,*
Just looking to clarify something, from the two sections of your post above you seem to be saying that*
a). The event appeared to be happening to the sun (referring to witnesses descriptions)
b). The event wasn’t happening g to the sun (referring to the fact that if it had been there would be no need for Mary to have got people to go to Fatima).
If you agree with these two statements would you say that the event (assuming for the moment it was miraculous) was therefore a sort of deception? If not, why not?*
P
Poof
Guest
Most of my information came from these three sourcesDo you have a link for these claims, and numbers?
Sarah x
- Meet the Witnesses by John Haffert, which is one of the best books on the topic.
- catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima1/
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima2/
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima3/
crc-internet.org/JP1/Fatima4.htm
- The state of Portugal pre-miracle, including the aggressive measures taken by the government to eradicate religion, particularly Catholicism (this includes Lisbon being dubbed “as the athiest capital of the world during that time”).
- The miracle’s effect on Portugal - moved believers, converted droves of atheists and non-believers and led to the downfall of Portugal’s atheistic regime…etc
I’m sorry, could you elaborate on that?
A
atheistgirl
Guest
Thanks for the links. Very interesting. I still can’t find anything from independent sources that backs up the claims of either Lisbon being the atheist capital of the world, or that large numbers of atheists converted after the sun miracle.Most of my information came from these three sources
As for numbers, neither of the sources provided didn’t provide any. But they did discuss…
- Meet the Witnesses by John Haffert, which is one of the best books on the topic.
- catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima1/
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima2/
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima3/
crc-internet.org/JP1/Fatima4.htm
I’m sorry, could you elaborate on that?
- The state of Portugal pre-miracle, including the aggressive measures taken by the government to eradicate religion, particularly Catholicism (this includes Lisbon being dubbed “as the athiest capital of the world during that time”).
- The miracle’s effect on Portugal - moved believers, converted droves of atheists and non-believers and led to the downfall of Portugal’s atheistic regime…etc
I’m getting a 404 on the last link.
That last quote isn’t mine - you’ll have to ask Candide
Sarah x
P
Poof
Guest
Lisbon being atheist capital of the world came from John Haffert’s book. As for the large numbers of atheists that converted, that can be found anywhere. You can find a lot of sources that will tell you of the huge amounts of atheists and non-believers that converted during and after the miracle. The post by aragonjohn above will even tell you how Portugal’s atheistic government began to panic due to the several conversions in their ranks.Thanks for the links. Very interesting. I still can’t find anything from independent sources that backs up the claims of either Lisbon being the atheist capital of the world, or that large numbers of atheists converted after the sun miracle.
I’m getting a 404 on the last link.
That last quote isn’t mine - you’ll have to ask Candide
Sarah x
You’ve got to take into account that Portugal was under an atheistic government for about 150 years, and that, these people were set upon establishing a godless republic drenched in free masonry.
"They passed a series of anti-Catholic laws. Religious orders were outlawed and many religious were expelled from the country. Churches were sacked, church property was confiscated, convents and monasteries were closed and seminaries were controlled. The public celebration of religious feasts and public wearing of clerical garb were forbidden. Divorce was legalized and religious instruction in all schools was prohibited. These anti-Catholic measures culminated in the Separation of church and state that passed on April 20, 1911. The leader of the Freemasons Alfonso Costa, boasted: “Thanks to this law of separation, in two generations Catholicism will be completely eliminated in Portugal.” - Fatima for Today by Fr. Andrew Apostoli
And all of this was overturned with the Miracle of the Sun.
- Status