Mass delusion or genuine miracle?

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I’m going with the explanation below from newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/fatimas-miracle-of-sun-star-of.html.

The Miracle of the Sun – not a change in the sun

"We refer our readers to an earlier article in which we discuss the nature of the Star of Bethlehem. In that post, we concluded that the “Bethlehem Star” was not an actual star (i.e. it was not a burning ball of gas many times the size of earth), but was a new phenomenon created (much as the Pillar of Fire was created to lead the Israelites out of Egypt). This point is affirmed in various ways by several of the Fathers of the Church (including St. John Chrysostom and St. Augustine), and by Fr. Cornelius a’ Lapide.

Likewise, it does not seem at all likely that the sun itself “danced” or “fell towards the earth” or “grew in size” or “changed in color.” Indeed, it would seem that such events would be devastating not only for the planet of earth, but for many other planets in our solar system. Moreover, although the Miracle of the Sun was witnessed by individuals several miles away from Fatima, it was not witnessed around the world.

However, neither would it be rational to conclude that the event was nothing more than a “mass hallucination” – considering that there were between 30,000 and 100,000 people who witnessed the event (and some from as many as 18 kilometers away), it would be very hard to explain this miracle as nothing more than a mental phenomenon. Still, we do admit that some persons (both among believers and non-believers) present in the field that day saw nothing unusual at all.

Therefore, it seems most likely that the sun itself did not dance or move from its place in the solar system, but that a new mass was formed in the sky and filled with an intense light. This illuminated mass also seems to have produced an intense heat. Still, the eyes of some were held from witnessing this real event – whether by demons or the divine will, we know not. This newly created atmospheric ball was moved (it seems) by angels and is most closely comparable to the Pillar of Fire or (perhaps) to the Star of Bethlehem.

Positing the creation of this illuminated mass of particles – likely gathered from dust and the air, almost in the manner of an extremely dense cloud – the Miracle of the Sun does not in any way lose its miraculous and wondrous qualities. Rather, we see the immediate parallels between Fatima and the Pillar of Fire, and perhaps even the Star of Bethlehem.

Consider the Scriptural descriptions of these two: And the Lord went before them to shew the way by day in a pillar of a cloud, and by night in a pillar of fire: that he might be the guide of their journey at both times. There never failed the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, before the people. (Exodus 13:21-22)

And the angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, removing, went behind them: and together with him the pillar of the cloud, leaving the forepart, Stood behind, between the Egyptians’ camp and the camp of Israel. …] And now the morning watch was come, and behold the Lord looking upon the Egyptian army through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, slew their host. (Exodus 14:19-20,24)

The Wise Men speak of the Star to Herod, then it goes before them to Bethlehem: Where is he that is born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to adore him. …] And behold the star which they had seen in the east, went before them, until it came and stood over where the child was. And seeing the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. (Matthew 2:2,9-10)

To claim that the Miracle of the Sun which occurred at Fatima on 13 October 1917 did not alter the sun but instead was the creation of a new illuminated atmospheric mass is by no means to downplay or reject the wondrous nature of the event. Rather, it is to recognize that Fatima is among those greatest of modern miracles, for it recalls the central events of salvation history – the exodus from Egypt and the nativity of our Savior.

A reasoned approach to the Miracle of Fatima tells us that the sun itself did not dance or move, but we also can see the immediate biblical parallels which our Lady has evoked (especially, with the Pillar of Fire). This was truly a miracle of biblical proportions." newtheologicalmovement
 
Hi Dskysmine,*

Nice to hear from you again and congratulations on your wedding. I wish you every happiness for the future.*

I’m afraid I don’t have as much time at the moment either so how about we try something different, let’s try a hypothetical.*

Dave and Sarah are happily married. Sarah has a friend Steve who secretly has a magical power to create illusions.*

One night Sarah is out for the evening having dinner with her sister and through the window they see Dave walking along on the street outside with another girl and then passionately kissing her. What they don’t know is that in reality Dave is back at home tucked up in bed and what they have seen is an illusion created by Steve. Obviously this has a radical affect on Dave and Sarah’s relationship.*

I would say that Steve has deceived Sarah and her sister. Given our discussion thus far I suspect you will disagree? Please confirm this if correct and (if you can) why in simple terms you don’t consider Steve’s actions to be deceptive before we go any further.*

Hopefully this simpler hypothetical should make the discussion more simple. If not then (when I get enough time) I’ll go through and respond to all the points you asked about.*
I would say that Steve has deceived Sarah and her sister.
🙂
God bless,
D.
 
I’m going with the explanation below from newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/fatimas-miracle-of-sun-star-of.html.

The Miracle of the Sun – not a change in the sun

"We refer our readers to an earlier article in which we discuss the nature of the Star of Bethlehem. In that post, we concluded that the “Bethlehem Star” was not an actual star (i.e. it was not a burning ball of gas many times the size of earth), but was a new phenomenon created (much as the Pillar of Fire was created to lead the Israelites out of Egypt). This point is affirmed in various ways by several of the Fathers of the Church (including St. John Chrysostom and St. Augustine), and by Fr. Cornelius a’ Lapide.

Likewise, it does not seem at all likely that the sun itself “danced” or “fell towards the earth” or “grew in size” or “changed in color.” Indeed, it would seem that such events would be devastating not only for the planet of earth, but for many other planets in our solar system. Moreover, although the Miracle of the Sun was witnessed by individuals several miles away from Fatima, it was not witnessed around the world.

However, neither would it be rational to conclude that the event was nothing more than a “mass hallucination” – considering that there were between 30,000 and 100,000 people who witnessed the event (and some from as many as 18 kilometers away), it would be very hard to explain this miracle as nothing more than a mental phenomenon. Still, we do admit that some persons (both among believers and non-believers) present in the field that day saw nothing unusual at all.

Therefore, it seems most likely that the sun itself did not dance or move from its place in the solar system, but that a new mass was formed in the sky and filled with an intense light. This illuminated mass also seems to have produced an intense heat. Still, the eyes of some were held from witnessing this real event – whether by demons or the divine will, we know not. This newly created atmospheric ball was moved (it seems) by angels and is most closely comparable to the Pillar of Fire or (perhaps) to the Star of Bethlehem.

Positing the creation of this illuminated mass of particles – likely gathered from dust and the air, almost in the manner of an extremely dense cloud – the Miracle of the Sun does not in any way lose its miraculous and wondrous qualities. Rather, we see the immediate parallels between Fatima and the Pillar of Fire, and perhaps even the Star of Bethlehem.

Consider the Scriptural descriptions of these two: And the Lord went before them to shew the way by day in a pillar of a cloud, and by night in a pillar of fire: that he might be the guide of their journey at both times. There never failed the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, before the people. (Exodus 13:21-22)

And the angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, removing, went behind them: and together with him the pillar of the cloud, leaving the forepart, Stood behind, between the Egyptians’ camp and the camp of Israel. …] And now the morning watch was come, and behold the Lord looking upon the Egyptian army through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, slew their host. (Exodus 14:19-20,24)

The Wise Men speak of the Star to Herod, then it goes before them to Bethlehem: Where is he that is born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to adore him. …] And behold the star which they had seen in the east, went before them, until it came and stood over where the child was. And seeing the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. (Matthew 2:2,9-10)

To claim that the Miracle of the Sun which occurred at Fatima on 13 October 1917 did not alter the sun but instead was the creation of a new illuminated atmospheric mass is by no means to downplay or reject the wondrous nature of the event. Rather, it is to recognize that Fatima is among those greatest of modern miracles, for it recalls the central events of salvation history – the exodus from Egypt and the nativity of our Savior.

A reasoned approach to the Miracle of Fatima tells us that the sun itself did not dance or move, but we also can see the immediate biblical parallels which our Lady has evoked (especially, with the Pillar of Fire). This was truly a miracle of biblical proportions." newtheologicalmovement
So God created more than one star?

Shalom
God bless
 
I would say that Steve has deceived Sarah and her sister.
🙂
God bless,
D.
Surprising. So is there some key way in which you believe the situation is different from the situation at Fatima? If so what is it? (I’ve used the = symbol below for “equivalant to”).

Sarah and her sister = people at Fatima
Steve = God
Dave passionately kissing girl on the street = sun dancing
Dave being at home in bed = sun actually behaving as normal.
 
Surprising. So is there some key way in which you believe the situation is different from the situation at Fatima? If so what is it?
God is usually very conservative with miracles. Remember that Jesus said no sign would be shown to an evil and faithless generation.

I think there is a difference in decieving people into thinking nothing out of the ordinary is going on (God) and deceiving people into thinking there is (Steve).
 
God is usually very conservative with miracles. Remember that Jesus said no sign would be shown to an evil and faithless generation.

I think there is a difference in decieving people into thinking nothing out of the ordinary is going on (God) and deceiving people into thinking there is (Steve).
Interesting. So are you saying that there is a categorical difference between the following?
  1. the sun was behaving normally and God deceived people into believing that it was dancing
    and
  2. the sun was dancing and God deceived people into believing that it was behaving normally.
 
Interesting. So are you saying that there is a categorical difference between the following?
  1. the sun was behaving normally and God deceived people into believing that it was dancing
    and
  2. the sun was dancing and God deceived people into believing that it was behaving normally.
yes. 👍 because God had the right to reveal what he was doing to whoever he wanted.
 
yes. 👍 because God had the right to reveal what he was doing to whoever he wanted.
Hmmm, you may have a point there.

You’ve given me something very interesting to ponder on. Thanks.
 
Surprising. So is there some key way in which you believe the situation is different from the situation at Fatima? If so what is it? (I’ve used the = symbol below for “equivalant to”).

Sarah and her sister = people at Fatima
Steve = God
Dave passionately kissing girl on the street = sun dancing
Dave being at home in bed = sun actually behaving as normal.
Of course I do.
Steve =/= God
and
Dave passionately kissing girl on the street =/= sun dancing

But I already explained this several times in my arguments, you simply assumed I had the same understanding of the event as you, which I do not.

God bless,
D.
 
Of course I do.*
Steve =/= God
and*
Dave passionately kissing girl on the street =/= sun dancing

But I already explained this several times in my arguments, you simply assumed I had the same understanding of the event as you, which I do not.

God bless,
D.
Ok, so in what key way(s) is the situation different which means that Steves actions are deception, while Gods are not?
 
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0DA4162066A1F39

Mass delusion on the part of 70000 people or an actual miracle predicted by the children? It was not of natural origin as it was not recorded by any astronomical observatory. Mass delusion is ruled out, in my opinion, for obvious reasons. Also, the event was witnessed up to 20 miles away by people going about their normal lives unaware of the predicted event.
if the sun danced then half the world would see it.

sorry its only mass delusions.
 
the bible God doesnt pick and choose who sees his miracles. to do so would be pointless.
Look at the bible. There are several instances when Jesus performs miricles for some but not for others.
 
Ok, so in what key way(s) is the situation different which means that Steves actions are deception, while Gods are not?
For starters your situation assumes that Steve wanted the woman to think something that was not real. In the case of Fatima we don’t know what God wanted people to think. You assume God wanted the people to think the sun was dancing, but you infer that conclusion only from their perception, because you have no other basis. In your story it seems clear that Steve intends her to think otherwise.
For second, the object is clearly something recognizable. While in Steve’s story it is a man and a woman kissing, in the case of Fatima it is not so clear. A lot of people describe it as the sun dancing, but as I said countless times, that may simply be what their brain explains the situation to be. Some people talk more about the changing of colors, some more about the “movement”, which can, in optical illusions, be due to greater intensity or smaller intensity, cause the sensation of movement.
Even further than these two differences there would be the fact that in the first case there would be various methodologies that Steve could have used to create the illusion (a cartboard, a hologram, etc…) while in Fatima we have very few knowledge of how God’s miracles actually work, hence why we call them miracles.

God bless,
D.
 
Candide West - True, because I cannot prove that it was a miracle. What I have demonstrated is that IF it was a miracle THEN God deceived people.
So all miracles e.g. Fatima, should be referred to as a deception, simply because they are not explainable?
 
if the sun danced then half the world would see it.

sorry its only mass delusions.
So God can create the material universe out of absolutely nothing, but God could not cause the sun to dance for a large group of people, only, in the cova? Hmm…
 
Interesting. So are you saying that there is a categorical difference between the following?
  1. the sun was behaving normally and God deceived people into believing that it was dancing
    and
  2. the sun was dancing and God deceived people into believing that it was behaving normally.
The sun was behaving normally and then God performed a miracle. But let’s say, for the sake of argument that the sun was behaving normally and God deceived people into believing that it was dancing: how did God do that? Is there some sort of natural explanation…? Do you find, what I call a miracle, and you call a deception, to be rather impressive and convincing, in terms of a God doing something mere humans could not? Or, do you see no evidence of God regarding the miracle or deception?
 
For starters your situation assumes that Steve wanted the woman to think something that was not real. In the case of Fatima we don’t know what God wanted people to think. You assume God wanted the people to think the sun was dancing, but you infer that conclusion only from their perception, because you have no other basis. In your story it seems clear that Steve intends her to think otherwise.*
Actually there’s no difference between the two there. You have inferred what Steve wanted the women to think from their perceptions, just like we can infer what God wanted people to think from witnesses perceptions. But there’s no information in the scenario about Steve’s intentions.*
For second, the object is clearly something recognizable. While in Steve’s story it is a man and a woman kissing, in the case of Fatima it is not so clear. A lot of people describe it as the sun dancing, but as I said countless times, that may simply be what their brain explains the situation to be. Some people talk more about the changing of colors, some more about the “movement”, which can, in optical illusions, be due to greater intensity or smaller intensity, cause the sensation of movement.*
Well from the witness testimony where people repeatedly and specifically state that it was the sun that was performing the actions it seems that they were entirely clear on what they saw. Just as Sarah and her sister were clear on what they saw. In fact every witness statement I’ve read (quite a few) refers to the behaviour of “the sun”.*

In both cases what the witnesses were clear about what they, but what they saw was not an accurate representation of what was really happening. So again we seem to have no difference here.*
Even further than these two differences there would be the fact that in the first case there would be various methodologies that Steve could have used to create the illusion (a cartboard, a hologram, etc…) while in Fatima we have very few knowledge of how God’s miracles actually work, hence why we call them miracles.*
Actually we have no information about how Steve performed his actions beyond him having “magical” powers. There is no information in the scenario about how Steves powers actually work. So again the two scenarios match here too.*
 
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