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Genesis315
Guest
For the when, I’m not sure. As for the why: Jesus is truly present at the Mass. To not show up because you have other things to do is in essence rejecting Jesus or at least putting worldly pursuits above Him.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
The Church cannot “make” something a mortal sin - a mortal sin is mortal by the very nature of the act. If something is mortally sinful today, it has always been thus.
However, it is possible that yesterday we didn’t really understand the seriousness of the act.
Remember that for a sin to be “mortal” it must meet some conditions:
*]The act must be of a serious nature
*]You must be aware of the serious nature of the act at the time you do it.
*]You must not be compelled to commit the act.
In the cass of Mass attendance, this is a sin of omission (not doing something you should). Some people might think it’s “no big deal” to miss Mass because the Jets are playing the Vikings. If you REALLY believe it’s “no big deal” and are not aware that your act is truly evil in nature (denying God praise in favor of your own satisfaction) then you are NOT accountable for this sin. That’s right - for that uninnformed guy, the sin is not mortal.
But ALL sin is harmful to the soul, so the uninformed Vikings fan has impaired his relationship with God by the choices he has made (even if he hasn’t completely denied himself God’s Grace). The Church doesn’t want us to make bad choices because we are ignorant (uninformed), so She makes clear to Her children what their obligations are (and giving praise and worship to God is one of those obligations). This is part of the teaching ministry of the Church.
If the Church is effective in exercising this teaching ministry, the Vikings fan will become aware that he ought to make time to worship his Lord and God, and he may think twice next Sunday. If he STILL places his own satisfaction above his obligation to the Lord, then he is NOW guilty of mortal sin.
When did this particular teaching originate? It’s hard to say. It can be traced back to ancient times. See newadvent.org/cathen/04154a.htm for further information.
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Elizabeth_B
Guest
We need to be careful with this argument. You are correct that you must know a sin is grievous to meet this criterion. However, many folks have been informed that intentionally missing Mass on Sunday is grievous, but have decided they disagree. This lgic has frequently been applied to many, many different types of sin. It is a case of falling for Satan’s first lie: “You,too, will know good from evil.”
If you have been informed correctly that a sin is serious and you choose to reject this information, you are still accountable.
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lsburk
Guest
CatholicGolfer,
You need to turn the debate around on this teacher. I suggest you ask this teacher by what authority we should look to the bible as the sole rule of faith. After all, his comments about Catholic Tradition(oral teaching) imply that we should look to the bible alone for authority. If this is so, how is it Martin Luther had the authority to interpret scripture if the Holy Spirit guides us all in truth? How can one denomination have a different interpretation of scripture from another denomination? If all truth lies within the pages of the bible, how can people differ on matters of faith?
Scott in Lawrence, KS
You need to turn the debate around on this teacher. I suggest you ask this teacher by what authority we should look to the bible as the sole rule of faith. After all, his comments about Catholic Tradition(oral teaching) imply that we should look to the bible alone for authority. If this is so, how is it Martin Luther had the authority to interpret scripture if the Holy Spirit guides us all in truth? How can one denomination have a different interpretation of scripture from another denomination? If all truth lies within the pages of the bible, how can people differ on matters of faith?
Scott in Lawrence, KS
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Elizabeth B.:
In the case of Mass attendance, though, the person who leanrs but rejects the teachings of the Church also rejects the Third Commandment.
Of course. No Catholic is free to reject the moral teachings of the Church. But if you are unaware of the teaching (through no fault of your own) then you are not accountable.
In the case of Mass attendance, though, the person who leanrs but rejects the teachings of the Church also rejects the Third Commandment.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
A good Biblical discussion of our moral obligation to attend Church (besides the - ahem - Third Commandment) can be found here.
Also, if the teacher believes that the Catholic Church insists on Mass attendance in order to “control” the Flock, then why, I wonder, does he suppose that John Calvin insisted on regular attendance as well? In fact, homes would be searched during services, and those found at home would be imprisioned!
John Calvin was, of course, one of the “Big Three” inventors of protestantism. He was a contemporary (and enemy) of Martin Luther who overall has had a far larger impact on the protestant religion than Martin Luther ever dreamed of. Luther was the first, but Calvin was much more historically significant (especially in the English-speaking world, though Calvin was a Frenchman).
Also, if the teacher believes that the Catholic Church insists on Mass attendance in order to “control” the Flock, then why, I wonder, does he suppose that John Calvin insisted on regular attendance as well? In fact, homes would be searched during services, and those found at home would be imprisioned!
John Calvin was, of course, one of the “Big Three” inventors of protestantism. He was a contemporary (and enemy) of Martin Luther who overall has had a far larger impact on the protestant religion than Martin Luther ever dreamed of. Luther was the first, but Calvin was much more historically significant (especially in the English-speaking world, though Calvin was a Frenchman).
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Elizabeth_B
Guest
I agree.
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betrublu2Him
Guest
First of all, how profound Archbishop Sheen was in his time…love the quote you use from him…
Anyway, have you read the CCC -1280 through 2182 on Sunday obligation???
If not here it is:
The Sunday obligation
[2180](http://javascript:OpenPopupWindow() The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass."117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day."118
2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.
[2182](http://javascript:OpenPopupWindow() Participation in the communal celebration of the Sunday Eucharist is a testimony of belonging and of being faithful to Christ and to his Church. The faithful give witness by this to their communion in faith and charity. Together they testify to God’s holiness and their hope of salvation. They strengthen one another under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
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Deus_Solus
Guest
Let us know how it goes Golfer, you’re in our prayers.
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mommy
Guest
I know I would miss it. I"m going to be visiting relatives (prot) on Memorial Day weekend, I’m already searching mass times for a church near where we’re staying I don’t want to miss it.
And you know, it doesn’t feel so much like an* obligation *- I WANT to do it!!
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Hi Catholicgolfer:
Well, I’d make it his “lie”, so to speak.
He’s the historian, right? He has the data bases, he has the experience and the technical know-how to access them.
So, his assertion is that, apparently, some Catholic big-wigs “MADE UP” this idea of missing Mass being a mortal sin in order to control the people.
OK, well then, if that’s the case, then there has to be a RECORD of it somewhere, right?
If it was “ok” to miss Mass, but then, oh gee, we’ve got to control our flock, let’s tell them–mortal sin to miss Mass–
WHERE are the records and the proven historical and verifiable data that showed that missing Mass was NOT a mortal sin at the time of and prior to
AND
the records and proven historical and verifiable data that showed that at time in place a decision was made by Pope or Council or whatever that henceforth, missing Mass was to be considered a mortal sin??
Now, there may be documents reemphasizing norms–for example, there might exist a document (such as there were in Vatican II) REMINDING people of their obligations. If a person is “reminded”, that means he or she isn’t just getting a NEW teaching, but that the teaching–and in Catholicism we are talking of eternal teachings–which has always existed is being reiterated. The dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, for example, isn’t a “new teaching” that was first put forth in the 1950s–it is a teaching related to apostolic times which had always been “known” but due to the growth of spiritual understanding under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, over a period of centuries, was brought to its zenith of understanding and was then reiterated in that form at that time.
Your history teacher may (I’ll be charitable) have been “confused” by reading about a minor council’s “reiteration” of a teaching into thinking that this was some sort of “new” thing, and if he’s been exposed to the anti-Catholic polemics and their revisionist or biased interpretations, he may have bought into the idea that it was a political thing (look at the people who are convinced that it was only because married priests were leaving their property to family that the Church “started” celibacy–a prime example of this sort of “twisted legerdermain”).
Well, I’d make it his “lie”, so to speak.
He’s the historian, right? He has the data bases, he has the experience and the technical know-how to access them.
So, his assertion is that, apparently, some Catholic big-wigs “MADE UP” this idea of missing Mass being a mortal sin in order to control the people.
OK, well then, if that’s the case, then there has to be a RECORD of it somewhere, right?
If it was “ok” to miss Mass, but then, oh gee, we’ve got to control our flock, let’s tell them–mortal sin to miss Mass–
WHERE are the records and the proven historical and verifiable data that showed that missing Mass was NOT a mortal sin at the time of and prior to
AND
the records and proven historical and verifiable data that showed that at time in place a decision was made by Pope or Council or whatever that henceforth, missing Mass was to be considered a mortal sin??
Now, there may be documents reemphasizing norms–for example, there might exist a document (such as there were in Vatican II) REMINDING people of their obligations. If a person is “reminded”, that means he or she isn’t just getting a NEW teaching, but that the teaching–and in Catholicism we are talking of eternal teachings–which has always existed is being reiterated. The dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, for example, isn’t a “new teaching” that was first put forth in the 1950s–it is a teaching related to apostolic times which had always been “known” but due to the growth of spiritual understanding under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, over a period of centuries, was brought to its zenith of understanding and was then reiterated in that form at that time.
Your history teacher may (I’ll be charitable) have been “confused” by reading about a minor council’s “reiteration” of a teaching into thinking that this was some sort of “new” thing, and if he’s been exposed to the anti-Catholic polemics and their revisionist or biased interpretations, he may have bought into the idea that it was a political thing (look at the people who are convinced that it was only because married priests were leaving their property to family that the Church “started” celibacy–a prime example of this sort of “twisted legerdermain”).
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Catholicgolfer
Guest
Okay, I guess it went ok. Although I was sent home. Today I went in there with my material. He asked me what I found on the sacraments. I told him all the places it is found and gave him a copy. I decided not to discuss everything else with him until after class because I didn’t feel the need to pick a fight. So after class I had a copy of “Is it our moral obligation to attend mass on Sunday?” (Thank you David.) And the faith/works and tradition/only bible quotes from the bible.(Thank you Genesis) I asked him to read them so he knows where I stand because of our debate on Friday. Then he had the nerve to say that we weren’t debating when it was clear that we were. So I told him that we were and that these things do not need to be broughten up in class, and that if he wants to discuss this after class or school sometime I would be glad to. Then he kept saying that we weren’t debating so I told him that there are people who I talked to that have gone throught this with him. He also told me not tell him how to run his class. (Picture this with all these seniors walking in while I’m getting yelled at.) Even though I was clearly not. I just about lost it, but didn’t until I started writing down what he said in the next class. So I got up and left the room figuring I could just wipe my eyes and be fine, but as I was walking back to class one of the aids in that class who saw me leave came and we talked for a while about what he was doing, and she decided that I needed to go home so here I am. My mom called the principal and something should be getting done about it soon. I don’t know if I have mentioned this, but this has been going on for years, and everytime someone’s parents have tried to talk to him he has just gotten worse. Now I’m scared to go back to his class tomorrow because I know it’s gonna be bad. Oh, and I forgot to mention, he’s my dad’s cousin’s husband so this doesn’t really help in the family situation either.
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Tinkerbell
Guest
I’m saying a little prayer for you. You should not have to deal with this at a public school. I think you are GREAT for standing up for your faith . Just remember God will bless you which is the most important thing about all this.
. Just remember God will bless you which is the most important thing about all this.
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Catholicgolfer
Guest
Thank you to everyone who supported me through this. I thought I should update this for all you who care.
The principal took me out of class the next day (Tues.) so I could fill out a report on what happened (also because he was scared to have me in class). It was two pages long so it took me a while to write. The only other person in the room at the time was an aid who had to fill out the same thing I did. She lied about the whole thing because the teacher asked her to be on his side. I also found out that he went to my older brother and told him his side of the story so he would be on his side.
My parents, the principal and I had a meeting the next day.(Wed.) Then on Thursday they had a meeting with just the principal, my parents and the teacher. I wasn’t supposed to go because the principal didn’t want me to hear what was going to be said. Well, my parents told me that it got pretty heated between my mom and the teacher for a while (my mom is a great defender of her children, but only when something gets out of hand). There was plenty of yelling, but by the time I came in things were much better.
I came in after 45 minutes because they had the meeting during my 7th hour period. The teacher claimed that he didn’t know that the whole town and school had known him as a Catholic-basher. He did apologize to me and said that he would work on it. When asked if I wanted to say anything we ended up talking another 20 minutes because there was plenty I wanted to say. This shocked the principal and teacher because I am usually a quiet person, but when something isn’t right I feel like I need to stand up. I’m a pretty good kid so I think that is why I was taken seriousluy. (I knew there was a reason why I was like this.)
Then I was pushed back to class because he had to go teach his class. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he will seriously change, but keeping any eye on him.
The principal took me out of class the next day (Tues.) so I could fill out a report on what happened (also because he was scared to have me in class). It was two pages long so it took me a while to write. The only other person in the room at the time was an aid who had to fill out the same thing I did. She lied about the whole thing because the teacher asked her to be on his side. I also found out that he went to my older brother and told him his side of the story so he would be on his side.
My parents, the principal and I had a meeting the next day.(Wed.) Then on Thursday they had a meeting with just the principal, my parents and the teacher. I wasn’t supposed to go because the principal didn’t want me to hear what was going to be said. Well, my parents told me that it got pretty heated between my mom and the teacher for a while (my mom is a great defender of her children, but only when something gets out of hand). There was plenty of yelling, but by the time I came in things were much better.
I came in after 45 minutes because they had the meeting during my 7th hour period. The teacher claimed that he didn’t know that the whole town and school had known him as a Catholic-basher. He did apologize to me and said that he would work on it. When asked if I wanted to say anything we ended up talking another 20 minutes because there was plenty I wanted to say. This shocked the principal and teacher because I am usually a quiet person, but when something isn’t right I feel like I need to stand up. I’m a pretty good kid so I think that is why I was taken seriousluy. (I knew there was a reason why I was like this.)
Then I was pushed back to class because he had to go teach his class. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he will seriously change, but keeping any eye on him.
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trailblazer
Guest
Dear Catholicgolfer,
That was quite a trial by fire you had. Your courage to stand up for your faith is an example to all of us. I am proud to have you in this forum. Please continue to express and defend your faith!
Bob
P.S. I am going to pass along your story to the 11th grade class whom I try to form in Catholic faith!
That was quite a trial by fire you had. Your courage to stand up for your faith is an example to all of us. I am proud to have you in this forum. Please continue to express and defend your faith!
Bob
P.S. I am going to pass along your story to the 11th grade class whom I try to form in Catholic faith!
C
Contarini
Guest
The teacher’s behavior is clearly inappropriate, but I don’t think he should be reported. There’s enough repression of the discussion of religion in the classroom (even though this really does go beyond legitimate bounds). It would be better to remind him forcefully that his job is to teach you history and not to attack your religion.
I don’t really see what the issue is. He doesn’t think the Church as an institution is necessary for salvation. Catholics do. It’s fine to see things “through Protestant eyes” as a historical exercise. But you don’t have to prove your doctrines on his terms. That’s a foolish demand whether we’re talking history or theology.
Of course, you could ask him why one would willingly omit an opportunity to receive Christ in the Eucharist, since presumably as a “strong Lutheran” he believes in the bodily presence of Christ in the Sacrament, and believes that in receiving the Sacrament our faith is strengthened and our sins are forgiven.
Edwin
I don’t really see what the issue is. He doesn’t think the Church as an institution is necessary for salvation. Catholics do. It’s fine to see things “through Protestant eyes” as a historical exercise. But you don’t have to prove your doctrines on his terms. That’s a foolish demand whether we’re talking history or theology.
Of course, you could ask him why one would willingly omit an opportunity to receive Christ in the Eucharist, since presumably as a “strong Lutheran” he believes in the bodily presence of Christ in the Sacrament, and believes that in receiving the Sacrament our faith is strengthened and our sins are forgiven.
Edwin
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Cal_in_Omaha
Guest
Wait. It’s not a sin if Protestant’s skip church on Sunday?? That’s so weird. What about keeping Holy the Sabbath and all that.
The Sabbath is Saturday. We keep the Day of the Lord; not the Sabbath.
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Philthy
Guest
The bolded portion of your statement makes no sense. There is no relationship between Sola Fide and what constitutes a sin. For example you can’t say “It isn’t a sin for a Lutheran to commit murder because they believe in faith alone”. Faith alone is a theological doctrine on the nature of salvation; sin is any attitude, thought or act which is knowingly opposed to the will of God.
Keeping the Sabbath holy is a commandment which is still in force regardless of your position on faith alone.
Doesn’t sound like a strong Lutheran to me, sounds like a strong independent who likes “his beliefs”. In reality that’s pretty weak.
He also seems to like to pick his fights where he can control the terms. Again, very weak.
There is no clear motive here. We need a motive to explain WHY the Church would do such a thing. What has the Church gained by this alleged “control”? Money? Power? Without an explanation this is just more of “his beliefs” which he is so enamored with.
Good. Stick to that. Tell him that you’d rather trust in the unchanging beliefs that have existed for two thousand years, since the beginning of the Church - not newer inventions of men in the 15th century which have splintered into thousands of denominations. That you trust those same beliefs which were upheld by the giants of the Church throughout the ages(Ignatius, Augustine, de Sales, Assisi, etc etc) who proved themselves through lives of sacrifice and obedience, often to the point of death. And that in the end, talk is cheap and the opinion of some one who can’t even manage to bring himself to church on Sunday simply hasn’t warranted the respect of this 15 year old high school student on matters of faith and morals.
Lastly you might start throwing a few Luther quotes at the “Lutheran”:
“Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation’s of ex-communications and spiritual penalties the people have learned to despise the word of God. They are no longer for the churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God… I would wish, if it were possible, to leave these men without a preacher or pastor” complained Luther in utter frustration “and let them live like swine. There is no longer any fear or love of God among them. After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases.” (Walch ed.)
“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity… It is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better."
Martin Luther
Good luck,
Phil
J
jako
Guest
WOW
Catholicgolfer, you and your parents should be proud of the strong woman of faith you’ve become.:clapping: I have loved reading your posts/updates its been very exciting. Even though this was a hard thing to go through you are stronger because of it. It’s people like you in your generation that give Catholics who are “slightly” older hope for the future of the Church. I have a 12 year old girl and I hope she can defend herself as well as you have. God Bless you, catholicgolfer and I will put you on my prayer list to pray for daily.
James
Catholicgolfer, you and your parents should be proud of the strong woman of faith you’ve become.:clapping: I have loved reading your posts/updates its been very exciting. Even though this was a hard thing to go through you are stronger because of it. It’s people like you in your generation that give Catholics who are “slightly” older hope for the future of the Church. I have a 12 year old girl and I hope she can defend herself as well as you have. God Bless you, catholicgolfer and I will put you on my prayer list to pray for daily.
James
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Catholicgolfer
Guest
Philthy,
I know some of the things I said sound like contradictions. That is because they are. The whole protestant “group” (for lack of a better word) is a contradiction. I just stated what he said. All protestants that I know won’t go to church on Sunday if they are too tired or any other excuse they can think up. Last night was prom here and we were out until 6 a.m. None of the protestant people I know would even think about getting up to go to church this morning. I am proud to say that all of my Catholic friends were there this morning, even if they were a bit tired.
I have wanted to give him some of those quotes from Luther, but I would need to know where you got them. I can’t just bring them in without any backround, so if you have the source I would love it if you would give it to me.
Contarini,
I know you don’t think this is a big deal, but this teacher has been degrading the Catholic Church for years, but parents and students have been too scared to stand up to him and get him to stop. The only reason I felt like I needed to go this far is because he wouldn’t stop even after I brought it to his attention.
Trailblaizer,
I feel honored that you are using my story. I hope it helps someone else to do the right thing and make a difference.
Jako,
Thank you. This whole experience has helped my faith so much. I started to get serious about my faith last summer when we had just gotton a new priest. He was the best priest I had ever had and was so close to our family. Its funny how God works in mysterious ways and puts people inour lives like that. Without him I wouldn’t have even cared to know anything about my faith and I don’t think I would have done any of this. He has left our parish now because of depression/anxiety problems, but calls every so often, and I can’t wait until I can tell him about this.
Thank you all for the ongoing support and prayers!!
I know some of the things I said sound like contradictions. That is because they are. The whole protestant “group” (for lack of a better word) is a contradiction. I just stated what he said. All protestants that I know won’t go to church on Sunday if they are too tired or any other excuse they can think up. Last night was prom here and we were out until 6 a.m. None of the protestant people I know would even think about getting up to go to church this morning. I am proud to say that all of my Catholic friends were there this morning, even if they were a bit tired.
I have wanted to give him some of those quotes from Luther, but I would need to know where you got them. I can’t just bring them in without any backround, so if you have the source I would love it if you would give it to me.
Contarini,
I know you don’t think this is a big deal, but this teacher has been degrading the Catholic Church for years, but parents and students have been too scared to stand up to him and get him to stop. The only reason I felt like I needed to go this far is because he wouldn’t stop even after I brought it to his attention.
Trailblaizer,
I feel honored that you are using my story. I hope it helps someone else to do the right thing and make a difference.
Jako,
Thank you. This whole experience has helped my faith so much. I started to get serious about my faith last summer when we had just gotton a new priest. He was the best priest I had ever had and was so close to our family. Its funny how God works in mysterious ways and puts people inour lives like that. Without him I wouldn’t have even cared to know anything about my faith and I don’t think I would have done any of this. He has left our parish now because of depression/anxiety problems, but calls every so often, and I can’t wait until I can tell him about this.
Thank you all for the ongoing support and prayers!!
- Status