Mass Like I've Never Seen Before

[TarlsQtr]

I am a northeast and orthodox Catholic that has moved south where Southern Baptists rule. Thus, there is one Catholic Church in the entire county where I recently moved (actually, it is a mission that has one weekend mass on Saturday evening and a Tuesday evening mass).

The mission is set up mainly as a place for tourists to attend mass during the summer with maybe 10 Catholic families attending all year round. Of course, the Tuesday mass is even more sparsely attended than Saturday, which is the center of my question.

I went to my first Tuesday mass this week. I sat in my normal pew up front and began praying before mass. During my prayers, I lost concentration due to a fairly loud ruckus near me (I sit in the front pew). When I finished and opened my eyes, there were 6 folding chairs directly in front of the altar in a circle, not on the elevated part of the Church. The chairs had missals on them and a small table with the Lectionary on it was in the middle.

When Father came, the three other attendees sat down and asked me to join them. Confused, I asked if this was Bible study or mass. They told me that it was indeed mass, so I joined them in the circle. Father then joined us and we went through what I would call an informal Mass. One of the attendees read, with Father doing the gospel and homily as required. We sat and stood when required but no kneeling. In fact, during the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist, all four of us were standing on the altar watching the consecration, etc., and took Communion on the altar.

We then went back to the chairs to conclude mass in its usual manner (usual, other than where we were sitting).

It was obviously a real treat in one regard, to have such an intimiate setting and be “right there” for the consecration. However, I also had an uneasy feeling as I felt I was involved in something illicit.

Was I? What are my options for dealing with this situation? I would love to attend Tuesday mass regularly and father is even coming to my house after mass this coming Tuesday to bless our new house.

 

[lizaanne]

No one should be in the Sanctuary other than the priest and altar servers (as well as those directly involved in the Mass - deacons, etc.). Period.

Yes, a small and intimate Mass is beautiful. But it does not mean that you just throw all propriety to the wind just because there are only a few people there.

God is no less present.

~Liza

 

[PLAT]

Really, a father allowing that?

How small is that altar? to the point where you can actually sit together in a circle?

And it is an altar. Not a table. not a table. ONLY the Book of Gospels, and the bread and wine (or body and blood of christ) should be placed on the altar you know (and candles). Not even decorative flowers of that sort.

And did the mass actually follow the missal? (Procession, Word, Eucharist, Conclusion). If so, I find it esoteric that you can sit around the altar. Did you guys bow and genuflect that sort of stuff? There are quite a few rules about that actually. Notice altar boys bow slightly to the celebrant when leaving the altar area?

Apparently there is one church where people always sit at the back of the church. To discourage that, they put shades so that the bakc area becomes very dark. Guess what?

 

[TarlsQtr]

Hi Plat,

Thanks for your response but maybe I was not clear enough.

We did not sit around the altar but in front of it, where one would normally accept communion at the foot of the stairs just off the Sanctuary.

We stood around the altar during the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist and received communion in the Sanctuary.

There was no procession per se but we did sing the entrance hymn with father already seated. The Missal was otherwise followed and we genuflected, bowed, etc. when we were supposed to (except kneel).

And there was nothing on the altar but the bread and wine along with the Book of Gospels. The Lectionary was on a small table in the circle where we sat just off the Sanctuary.

 

[PLAT]

Okay, the procession is like this:
The faithful stands.
The ministers and clergy(s) enters, bowing at the altar.
The celebrant(s) venerates the altar with a kiss.
(Did he do that? Are there any other celebrants clergies or ministers - EMs, lectors, deacons, altarboys?)

Rules of bowing:
To the most blessed sacrament (i.e. Eucharist) - genuflect (yeah there are two ways apparently, too)
To the altar and blessed images (or equavilent) - profound (deep) bow
To person/people (e.g. the celebrant, greeting people at Agnus Dei) - simple bow (also if the person is unable to genuflect or make a profound bow due to physical incapability or holding heavy stuff, etc. or don’t even need to in the latter case)

While it is better than I thought initially, I don’t have the knowledge to say this is a valid mass. Hope that helps and someone more erudite can come in and post.

 

[lizaanne]

It sounds like it was ok, but not having been there myself it’s hard to say. Lay people should not be in the sanctuary, but otherwise being in front of the altar is not a problem, as long as you are outside the sanctuary. I’ve been to private Masses before where there is no defined sanctuary - but the people are respectfully away from the altar as possible. It’s the gathering around in folding chairs that is a bit strange. If you are in a Church, why not just use the pews?

~Liza

 

[SonCatcher]

If you were all altar servers during this small Mass, I suspect there is no problem (there were 4 of you - one to hold the cruet of wine - one to hold the cruet of water, one to hold the basin and one to hold the towel).

There has been instruction that only the priest and servers be in the sanctuary during Mass (I recall controversy regarding this a few years ago). Anyone else should be outside the sanctuary (at least at the step - where the chairs were set up, as you describe). Adjusting the chairs a couple of feet would ensure enough room. If it’s a small enough sanctuary, you might not notice much difference.

 

[DebChris]

Hi Plat,

Thanks for your response but maybe I was not clear enough.

We did not sit around the altar but in front of it, where one would normally accept communion at the foot of the stairs just off the Sanctuary.

We stood around the altar during the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist and received communion in the Sanctuary.

There was no procession per se but we did sing the entrance hymn with father already seated. The Missal was otherwise followed and we genuflected, bowed, etc. when we were supposed to (except kneel).

And there was nothing on the altar but the bread and wine along with the Book of Gospels. The Lectionary was on a small table in the circle where we sat just off the Sanctuary.

What I am gathering from your posts is that very few people attended the daily Mass. Rather than have you sit a distance away from the altar, Father had you move closer.
It may seem unrelated, but my thoughts went to Army field Masses. Those attending are as close to the makeshift altar as possible.
Remember that the Lord had his most intimate friends seated around the table with Him at the Last Supper.

 

[lizaanne]

What I am gathering from your posts is that very few people attended the daily Mass. Rather than have you sit a distance away from the altar, Father had you move closer.
It may seem unrelated, but my thoughts went to Army field Masses. Those attending are as close to the makeshift altar as possible.
Remember that the Lord had his most intimate friends seated around the table with Him at the Last Supper.

But this is not an army field Mass - it is in a Church. And when in a Church there is a proper form that must be adhered to. We don’t just go making things up because there are only a few people present.

~Liza

 

[JimR-OCDS]

TarlsQtr,
you said this is a mission, which is probably closer to a monastery run by a religious order.

In such chases, the religious order is able to establish the norms for celebration of Mass, which are approved in Rome.

I’ve been on retreat where the celebrant invites the retreatants up around the altar during the Consecration. Some one visiting for the first time, complained to the Bishop and was informed the religious order running the monastery was allowed to set norms.

This is not the sanctuary, which the altar sits on and the priest says the Mass.

Sounds like a contemplative place to attend Mass, you should feel blessed.

Give the priest the benefit of the doubt that he perhaps knows what he’s doing.

Jim

 

[achmafooma]

Ehh, I’m not sure about this one so I’ll defer to those more knowledgeable.

I sympathize though. I’m lucky to be in an orthodox parish in an orthodox diocese, so this kind of thing would pretty much never happen. However, I have many friends, family, and acquaintances in a neighboring diocese which is (as you say) ‘where Southern Baptists rule.’

I’ve found many of the Masses there to be too informal for my tastes…a little ‘fast and loose’ with the norms and rubrics, a lot of chatter before and after the Mass (making prayer difficult), signs of peace that seem to go on forever, etc. It’s just different than what I’m used to so it can be very jarring for me. I’m not judging ;-).

As for your final questions, I think your best option is to (gently) bring it up to Father. Just let him know that it’s a lot different than what you’re used to and engage him in a conversation about why the Mass is done that way at this Parish. You might also gently say that you feel it’s more solemn and easier for you to pray/focus sitting in the pews. After all, he might be thinking the same thing but needed a little push to make a change ;-). You never know!

 

[DebChris]

TarlsQtr,
you said this is a mission, which is probably closer to a monastery run by a religious order.

In such chases, the religious order is able to establish the norms for celebration of Mass, which are approved in Rome.

I’ve been on retreat where the celebrant invites the retreatants up around the altar during the Consecration. Some one visiting for the first time, complained to the Bishop and was informed the religious order running the monastery was allowed to set norms.

This is not the sanctuary, which the altar sits on and the priest says the Mass.

Sounds like a contemplative place to attend Mass, you should feel blessed.

Give the priest the benefit of the doubt that he perhaps knows what he’s doing.

Jim

I thought about retreat centers as well. I remember my first Easter retreat. The center had a main chapel that was used when giving retreats. Off to the side was a smaller chapel where the community running the center prayed. Chairs were set against the wall facing each other. I felt blessed when I joined them. We prayed Morning Prayer from the LOTH after which the Mass was celebrated, all in that little room.

 

[Spirithound]

We did not sit around the altar but in front of it, where one would normally accept communion at the foot of the stairs just off the Sanctuary.

I’m sure this is fine. Pews are just long chairs.

We stood around the altar during the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist and received communion in the Sanctuary.

This does sound illicit. It would have been even more simple for the congregants to remain at their chairs.

There was no procession per se but we did sing the entrance hymn with father already seated.

This is the procession: Father enters the sanctuary. There is no requirement that he processes right up the centre aisle.

 

[PLAT]

I’m sure this is fine. Pews are just long chairs.

This does sound illicit. It would have been even more simple for the congregants to remain at their chairs.

This is the procession: Father enters the sanctuary. There is no requirement that he processes right up the centre aisle.

Yeah but the celebrant should kiss the altar right?

 

[DebChris]

Yeah but the celebrant should kiss the altar right?

A non-Catholic friend was once asked about why the priest kisses the altar. Even she recognized the importance of this act and correctly explained it to her son, about the priest being married to the Church. Her son attended Catholic parochial school and she wanted to know from me if her answer to him had been correct.
I have seldom heard music or seen a procession down the aisle during a daily Mass. The priest comes in and kisses the altar.
Mass can be held in a number of different settings. There are churches and chapels where the sanctuary is not clearly defined.
I mentioned in my first post that the Apostles gathered around the table with our Lord at the Last Supper. I reflected through the night that the distance between congregation and altar that developed over time was a necessary step to protecting the Sacrament.

 

[laszlo]

Hi Plat,

We stood around the altar during the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist and received communion in the Sanctuary.

And there was nothing on the altar but the bread and wine along with the Book of Gospels. The Lectionary was on a small table in the circle where we sat just off the Sanctuary.

There are several serious problems described

• people shall kneel during the Eucharistic prayer between the Sanctus and Our Father (both exclusive)
• no laity (except the servers/lector) is allowed in the Sanctuary
• the cross shall be in the altar, also candles shall be burnt

I would write a letter to the bishop, also I would stay in the pew, and if someone invite up, I would tell him/her that imho it is against the rules

 

[JimR-OCDS]

laszlo

people shall kneel during the Eucharistic prayer between the Sanctus and Our Father (both exclusive)

Not necessarily in monastic settings where kneeling is not practicle.

• no laity (except the servers/lector) is allowed in the Sanctuary

Depends on what the sanctuary is at that particular setting. The monastery where I went on retreat, the sanctuary is the upper level base which the altar sits on about 10 inches higher than the main floor. The men on retreat were invited our around the altar, but not on the sanctuary area of the altar.

• the cross shall be in the altar, also candles shall be burnt

I didn’t read where this was not done.

I would write a letter to the bishop, also I would stay in the pew, and if someone invite up, I would tell him/her that imho it is against the rules.

If its a religious order, the Bishop would not have a say over it being there was no obvious abuse, but it would be that of the Superior General of the Order.

But then, this is dependent on the order having Papal approval rather than just approval by the Bishop.

My guess is that this mission church has complete approval of the Bishop and he doesn’t micro manage the priest running it.

Jim

 

[laszlo]

laszlo
Depends on what the sanctuary is at that particular setting. The monastery where I went on retreat, the sanctuary is the upper level base which the altar sits on about 10 inches higher than the main floor. The men on retreat were invited our around the altar, but not on the sanctuary area of the altar.

The GIRM explicitly lists who can enter the Sanctuary, participants of retreat are not among that. We are living in a world were rubrics are not observed, but that is still wrong.

I didn’t read where this was not done.

**And there was nothing on the altar **but the bread and wine along with the Book of Gospels.

If its a religious order, the Bishop would not have a say over it being there was no obvious abuse, but it would be that of the Superior General of the Order.

But then, this is dependent on the order having Papal approval rather than just approval by the Bishop.

My guess is that this mission church has complete approval of the Bishop and he doesn’t micro manage the priest running it.

To a layman the proper order for appeal is the bishop. He know officially what shall be done.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

laszlo

The GIRM explicitly lists who can enter the Sanctuary, participants of retreat are not among that. We are living in a world were rubrics are not observed, but that is still wrong.

First off, the GIRM = “General” Instruction of the Roman Missal. Its a guide, not a bill of rights for every setting where Mass is said.

Second, as stated before, religious orders are given permission in establishing their own set of norms, which are approved by Rome for that order.

Third, the sanctuary area is not necessarily in the aspe of the Chuch, should their even be one, but the place where the priest stands during the consecration.

Forth, the priest celebrating the Mass has to be given the respect in that he knows what he’s doing.

Lastly, unless its an obvious offense of which you have the proper education and training to detect, be silent.

If it still bothers you to the point you beleive God is offended, begin a six month fast of bread and water in atonment for the abuse. You’ll be amazed how fast you begin to see that there was no abuse.

Jim

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

In the autobiography by the longtime President of Notre Dame, Father Theodore Hesburg, he recounts that it was his practice to hold Mass every day. He managed to do this despite having been appointed by President Kennedy to help organize the Peace Corp where he traveled extensively throughout the world. He also received many other high profile appointments, such as a US representative to Nuclear Arms Talks held in the 60s and 70s. He specifically mentions with pride having held Mass on an plane and at the South Pole. While your experience was untraditional, it isn’t illicit and in fact is rather sensible.