Mass no-nos

[zab]

I’m interested to know besides those of us that have already mentioned our parishes have a communion service during the week-days, how about you others and your parishes do you have it?

So it’s against the rules to have communion service on week-days if you have Mass the preceding or following Sundays. Am I reading that correctly…sometimes I have a hard time following the written language of the GIRM. I so appreciate all you smart folks here that understand this stuff so easily. Sure helps me out.
Thanks

Before Pope John Paul II wrote Redemptionis Sacramentum, there were rare occassions when the deacon was put on the spot to decide what should be done when a priest unexpectantly did not show up. At that time, there were also parishes in the Archdiocese that were priestless. These parishes had Communion Services regularly. As time went on, it became apparent to our pastor and I’m sure other priests and the bishops of the Archdiocese that having Communion services during the weekday was not the best option when there was no priest to offer Mass. Redemptionis Sacramentum may have had something to do with that as well. I doubt that my former pastor knowingly engaged in liturgical abuse.

We no longer have a retired priest to offer Mass once a week on the pastor’s day off. Now the deacon presides at the Liturgy of the Word and Benediction.

 

[Hotchkiss]

The Church in no way limits communion services to taking the place of Sunday (obligation) Masses. There use is regulated by the local ordinary or pastor based on the availability of priests and legitimate demand.

I know one parish in my diocese that has a mission that is 65 miles away in the California Desert. That little mission has a communion service Monday-Saturday. A priest visits on Sunday. They have permission and I see that as a most positive thing. It would be even better if they had a priest stationed out there but for now this is a heckuva lot better than nothing at all.

 

[benedictgal]

The Church in no way limits communion services to taking the place of Sunday (obligation) Masses. There use is regulated by the local ordinary or pastor based on the availability of priests and legitimate demand.

I know one parish in my diocese that has a mission that is 65 miles away in the California Desert. That little mission has a communion service Monday-Saturday. A priest visits on Sunday. They have permission and I see that as a most positive thing. It would be even better if they had a priest stationed out there but for now this is a heckuva lot better than nothing at all.

Evidently, you did not carefully read the section from Redemptionis Sacramentum. Communion services should not be a carte blanche issue. If the priest visits on Sunday, then, this provision should be examined:

[166.] Likewise, especially if Holy Communion is distributed during such celebrations, the diocesan Bishop, to whose exclusive competence this matter pertains, must not easily grant permission for such celebrations to be held on weekdays, especially in places where it was possible or would be possible to have the celebration of Mass on the preceding or the following Sunday. Priests are therefore earnestly requested to celebrate Mass daily for the people in one of the churches entrusted to their care.

Since, by your own admission, a priest goes out there every Sunday, there should not be a Communion serivce and permission for same must not be easily granted. I do not know if you have even read the entire section on Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest, but, the rite is specifically designed for Sundays, not for weekdays.

 

[FrDavid96]

The Church in no way limits communion services to taking the place of Sunday (obligation) Masses. There use is regulated by the local ordinary or pastor based on the availability of priests and legitimate demand.

I know one parish in my diocese that has a mission that is 65 miles away in the California Desert. That little mission has a communion service Monday-Saturday. A priest visits on Sunday. They have permission and I see that as a most positive thing. It would be even better if they had a priest stationed out there but for now this is a heckuva lot better than nothing at all.

Yes, the Church does regulate it.

Please see this link
usccb.org/liturgy/q%26a/general/weekday.shtml

 

[Hotchkiss]

Yes, the Church does regulate it.

Please see this link
usccb.org/liturgy/q%26a/general/weekday.shtml

“…The following reflections are offered to bishops and their advisors and may serve to assist bishops in the formulation of guidelines for this important area of pastoral life…”

“Regulate?” No. Offer non-binding guidance? Yes.

 

[Lujack]

Why would the phrase “must not easily grant permission” be used instead of “must not” be used in reference to the use of Communion services in that context if what the document really means is that Communion services can never be performed during the week if Mass was held the previous Sunday?

The very phrasing “must not easily grant permission” seems to indicate that there are difficult cases where the bishop can grant permission; the way I read that discourages the practice, and says that it shouldn’t be used as a “Communion dispenser”, but it seems to explicitly leave hard cases like the parish out in the desert up to the bishop’s judgment. Otherwise, why wouldn’t it say that if there was Mass on the previous Sunday, you can’t have a Communion service during the week, end of sentence (with Holy Days excepted)?

 

[FrDavid96]

“…The following reflections are offered to bishops and their advisors and may serve to assist bishops in the formulation of guidelines for this important area of pastoral life…”

“Regulate?” No. Offer non-binding guidance? Yes.

You are posting information which is obviously contrary to what the Church does say.

There are liturgical norms and there are Church laws on Communion services outside of Mass. The fact that you are unaware of these does not mean that they don’t exist. I provided the link merely for reference.

 

[FrDavid96]

Why would the phrase “must not easily grant permission” be used instead of “must not” be used in reference to the use of Communion services in that context if what the document really means is that Communion services can never be performed during the week if Mass was held the previous Sunday?

The very phrasing “must not easily grant permission” seems to indicate that there are difficult cases where the bishop can grant permission; the way I read that discourages the practice, and says that it shouldn’t be used as a “Communion dispenser”, but it seems to explicitly leave hard cases like the parish out in the desert up to the bishop’s judgment. Otherwise, why wouldn’t it say that if there was Mass on the previous Sunday, you can’t have a Communion service during the week, end of sentence (with Holy Days excepted)?

Sure, exactly. That’s what I meant earlier when I offered a reminder that this brief document is meant for the entire world–so it can’t address every possible scenario. Yes, cases like the “parish in the desert” is just that sort of thing. I once heard (or read?) about a parish in Africa where people walk 12 miles just to get to the church. Obviously that presents a different situation than say a large city in the US where there might be 2 parishes only a few blocks apart.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

If my memory serves me, here is what happens at a Communion Service: there is one reading, the responsorial psalm, and the Gospel reading. Then there are a few moments of silence (in place of a homily). The petitions are said, then the Our Father, and the sign of peace is exchanged. The person leading the Communion Service removes the ciborium from the tablernacle and everyone says “Lord, I am not worthy…”. Then everyone receives Communion.

There is no consecration at a Communion Service, but the people receive hosts taken from the tabernacle that have already been consecrated at a previous Mass.

In my diocese, a Communion Service used to be allowed, lead by a deacon or trained EMHC, in place of daily Mass if not priest was not available (due to illness or vacation), however, that that is no longer permitted. In our parish, when our priest is on vacation there is nothing in place of daily Mass. Some parishes may do morning prayer.

At the first and last Communion Service I went to, we did the quick order of the Mass, similar to described above, except a lay man said the Consecration as well. Oh I wanted to cry and didn’t partake in the Eucharist lest I been seen as omitting to this practice. Unfortunately, I think we have Communion Service once a week on a weekday.

I left the Church for awhile and now we have new priests. I don’t know if they lose their spot but sometimes they seem to ad lib. People hold hands all the time at the Our Father and some mime what the priest does with his hands.

My brothers and sisters, I don’t feel sanctity at my parish and don’t know what to do. Do they not know the Lord is the present in the Tabernacle? Do they not feel with Him there? I’m not a saint by any means but how things at my parish are going just makes me aggrieved.

P.S. Is there anything in the GIRM or Vatican document (I forget its name) for “Little Church”?

Little Church is held during the 9:00 am and 10:30 am Masses on most Sundays throughout the year except for summer months. Children between the ages of 4 and 8 are invited to go with adults and youth volunteers to the St. Joseph Room for their own “Liturgy of the Word”. This age appropriate program is used throughout the diocese to prepare our little ones to better participate in the Mass as they mature. The process is modeled on Liturgy of the Word as the adults are experiencing it in the Church while the young ones can hear the stories at their level and sing the antiphons that are understandable to them.

 

[FrDavid96]

…
P.S. Is there anything in the GIRM or Vatican document (I forget its name) for “Little Church”?

Yes, there is the Directory for Masses with Children

adoremus.org/DMC-73.html

If the parish is following what’s in that directory, it’s perfectly legitimate.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Yes, there is the Directory for Masses with Children

adoremus.org/DMC-73.html

If the parish is following what’s in that directory, it’s perfectly legitimate.

I wasn’t aware of such a thing. Thank you.

Young children are separated from the adults and go to the St. Joseph’s Room. In there, they are taught the Liturgy of the Word in an age appropriate way with coloring books and song. Kinda sounds like this…

Sometimes, moreover, if the place itself and the nature of the community permit, it will be appropriate to celebrate the Liturgy of the Word, including a homily, with the children in a separate, but not too distant, room. Then, before the Eucharistic Liturgy begins, the children are led to the place where the adults have meanwhile celebrated their own Liturgy of the Word.

Again, thank you for the information.

 

[japhy]

I know one parish in my diocese that has a mission that is 65 miles away in the California Desert. That little mission has a communion service Monday-Saturday. A priest visits on Sunday. They have permission…

Evidently, you did not carefully read the section from Redemptionis Sacramentum. Communion services should not be a carte blanche issue. …

Benedictgal, Hotchkiss was not endorsing “carte blanche” Communion services, and his (I assume) post has nothing to do with his familiarity with Redemptionis Sacramentum. He said that he knows of a parish that, as he tells it, has permission for the Communion service. Your issue (if you should have one at all) should be with the parish and/or the bishop.

 

[Lujack]

Sure, exactly. That’s what I meant earlier when I offered a reminder that this brief document is meant for the entire world–so it can’t address every possible scenario. Yes, cases like the “parish in the desert” is just that sort of thing. I once heard (or read?) about a parish in Africa where people walk 12 miles just to get to the church. Obviously that presents a different situation than say a large city in the US where there might be 2 parishes only a few blocks apart.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you very much, Father.

 

[ElizabethPH]

An update: I was reading today’s bulletin and saw that on Mondays it just says Morning Prayer now. I called a friend of mine that has regularly attended these services and asked her about Communion and she said they just now stopped having Communion and only have the Morning Prayer. I am glad to find this out. It rather bothered me when I thought my parish was doing this practice when they shouldn’t be.

 

[benedictgal]

An update: I was reading today’s bulletin and saw that on Mondays it just says Morning Prayer now. I called a friend of mine that has regularly attended these services and asked her about Communion and she said they just now stopped having Communion and only have the Morning Prayer. I am glad to find this out. It rather bothered me when I thought my parish was doing this practice when they shouldn’t be.

Brick by brick.

 

[Hotchkiss]

Benedictgal, Hotchkiss was not endorsing “carte blanche” Communion services, and his (I assume) post has nothing to do with his familiarity with Redemptionis Sacramentum. He said that he knows of a parish that, as he tells it, has permission for the Communion service. Your issue (if you should have one at all) should be with the parish and/or the bishop.

Precisely!

The local bishop through a pastor has the authority to allow M-Sat communion services at this mission. Cite all the paperwork you want, there’s no way around that.

In this case it works out beautifully. The people are reverent, they take it extremely seriously and it gives them very structured exposure to Sacred Scripture and the Blessed Sacrament in a liturgical setting when a priest is not available.

Yes I can see how the use of CSs could be abused but that’s not the case here, RS or no RS.

 

[Hotchkiss]

Why would the phrase “must not easily grant permission” be used instead of “must not” be used in reference to the use of Communion services in that context if what the document really means is that Communion services can never be performed during the week if Mass was held the previous Sunday?

The very phrasing “must not easily grant permission” seems to indicate that there are difficult cases where the bishop can grant permission; the way I read that discourages the practice, and says that it shouldn’t be used as a “Communion dispenser”, but it seems to explicitly leave hard cases like the parish out in the desert up to the bishop’s judgment. Otherwise, why wouldn’t it say that if there was Mass on the previous Sunday, you can’t have a Communion service during the week, end of sentence (with Holy Days excepted)?

Exactly! CSs are not prohibited during the week. That’s simply false.

We used to have CSs at my parish on Saturday morning for YEARS because the priests wanted to sleep-in or go play golf. Was that OK? Nope and it would never happen today due to a new bishop and pastor.

But is it wrong to allow a mission 65 miles from the nearest priest to have a M-Sat CS? Absolutely not – at least as far as the Church goes.

Some people here have VERY creative (and flawed) interpretations of various Church documents here. Maybe they should start relying on their bishops to interpret them for them and not on themselves…

 

[Hotchkiss]

You are posting information which is obviously contrary to what the Church does say.

So you say.

You think that I am going to accept your opinion with no proof or a flawed attempt at proof? Is that how things work about here? C’mon…

There are liturgical norms and there are Church laws on Communion services outside of Mass. The fact that you are unaware of these does not mean that they don’t exist. I provided the link merely for reference.

Yes there are and you should sit down with your bishop and go over some of them. You have provided flawed advice here as if it were proven fact. It is not universally wrong to have weekday communion services on an on-going basis depending on the genuine need and the ultimate direction set by the local bishop on a case-by-case basis. The Church does not say otherwise.

You may not like the truth in this case but that changes absolutely nothing.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

We used to have CSs at my parish on Saturday morning for YEARS because the priests wanted to sleep-in or go play golf. Was that OK? Nope and it would never happen today due to a new bishop and pastor.

Well, for starters, most diocese stipulate that priests are entitled to like 36 hours of “off time.” I know of some priests who say the morning mass on Friday and take time off until noon on Saturday.
Secondly, priests are not supposed to say more than 2 masses in a day except for Sundays and rare exceptions. Given that on Saturday there is a vigil mass and that its the most popular day for weddings and that funerals could also come in, the lack of a Saturday morning daily mass is not necessarily an indication of wanting to sleep in or play golf.

Some people here have VERY creative (and flawed) interpretations of various Church documents here. Maybe they should start relying on their bishops to interpret them for them and not on themselves…

Yes, but many bishops grant permission for communion services.

 

[benedictgal]

Precisely!

The local bishop through a pastor has the authority to allow M-Sat communion services at this mission. Cite all the paperwork you want, there’s no way around that.

In this case it works out beautifully. The people are reverent, they take it extremely seriously and it gives them very structured exposure to Sacred Scripture and the Blessed Sacrament in a liturgical setting when a priest is not available.

Yes I can see how the use of CSs could be abused but that’s not the case here, RS or no RS.

Every day, though? Is there Sunday Mass at this particular mission? At the heart of the issue is this:

166.] Likewise, especially if Holy Communion is distributed during such celebrations, the diocesan Bishop, to whose exclusive competence this matter pertains, must not easily grant permission for such celebrations to be held on weekdays, especially in places where it was possible or would be possible to have the celebration of Mass on the preceding or the following Sunday. Priests are therefore earnestly requested to celebrate Mass daily for the people in one of the churches entrusted to their care.

By your own admission, this area already has Sunday Mass. Now, this week we have a Holy Day of Obligation. If for whatever reason a priest cannot make it, then, a CS certainliy could take place. However, as the document also states, the priest in charge of that particular parish should make some effort to go out there at least one other time during the week. But, to have a CS six times a week is a bit much.