Mass no-nos

[bmadamsberry]

Folks, I’m new at this, still in RCIA, so patience, please.

Our parish has Mass every day at 9:00 a.m. (MTThF) or 5:30 p.m. (Weds) plus Sat vigil and four Masses on Sunday. We also have communion service at 5:30 p.m. every day (MTThF) and 9:00 a.m. (W), published in the bulletin. We’re not a remote mission, though the church building does look like a mission . There are at least 15 other Catholic churches within a 20 mile radius, so we’re really not isolated.

What, if anything, should I do? I haven’t a clue if the diocese knows. I wonder if they even know about the guidance from the Vatican.

Another question about the nature of the communion service. We have perpetual adoration from 6 a.m. until 10 p.m. daily; I have the hour from 5-6 p.m. on Monday . This week, I was at a loss when a woman walked in and started a communion service with about five parishoners. It was nearly as long as the mass had been that morning, and her “homily” was longer than the priest’s had been. I wanted to walk out, it was very uncomfortable and seemed very wrong. We have a priest, he celebrated mass that morning and would again the next morning–why do we need an amatuer substitute for five mobile, healthy looking adult parishoners? But I’m pretty new at this and figured maybe this was some ritual I just hadn’t learned yet. I couldn’t bring myself to participate (in the responses) and just stayed kneeling in prayer at the Tabernacle, apart from this group. Plus, I’m responsible to stay in the adoration area from 5 until the next adorer shows up, and couldn’t leave.

Maybe it was a “humilty test?” I get those a lot now…

I think that you did right by staying there (you did agree to that Hour, and who knows if they would have left early, or done something really bad). Because the post wasn’t very specific for the events, I assume that she had a full blown out Communion Service, where she went up to the tabernacle and took out the hosts and distributed it, as well as read from the Gospel for the day.
My advice is tell the priest right away. He might not know that this happend. Either way it needs to end.

 

[FrDavid96]

Folks, I’m new at this, still in RCIA, so patience, please.

Our parish has Mass every day at 9:00 a.m. (MTThF) or 5:30 p.m. (Weds) plus Sat vigil and four Masses on Sunday. We also have communion service at 5:30 p.m. every day (MTThF) and 9:00 a.m. (W), published in the bulletin. We’re not a remote mission, though the church building does look like a mission . There are at least 15 other Catholic churches within a 20 mile radius, so we’re really not isolated.

What, if anything, should I do? I haven’t a clue if the diocese knows. I wonder if they even know about the guidance from the Vatican.

Another question about the nature of the communion service. We have perpetual adoration from 6 a.m. until 10 p.m. daily; I have the hour from 5-6 p.m. on Monday . This week, I was at a loss when a woman walked in and started a communion service with about five parishoners. It was nearly as long as the mass had been that morning, and her “homily” was longer than the priest’s had been. I wanted to walk out, it was very uncomfortable and seemed very wrong. We have a priest, he celebrated mass that morning and would again the next morning–why do we need an amatuer substitute for five mobile, healthy looking adult parishoners? But I’m pretty new at this and figured maybe this was some ritual I just hadn’t learned yet. I couldn’t bring myself to participate (in the responses) and just stayed kneeling in prayer at the Tabernacle, apart from this group. Plus, I’m responsible to stay in the adoration area from 5 until the next adorer shows up, and couldn’t leave.

Maybe it was a “humilty test?” I get those a lot now…

Gwen,

The fact that this woman is conducting here own “Communion service” is a serious problem. These services can’t be done most especially since there is already Mass scheduled for that same day.

Being in RCIA, you’re in a difficult position to say anything.

The diocese most certainly knows about the liturgical norms from the Vatican. Your pastor most likely knows (it’s nearly impossible that he would not know). I can’t offer any suggestions on what you should do. All I can say is to let you know that these services are not permitted by the Church.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Folks, I’m new at this, still in RCIA, so patience, please.

Our parish has Mass every day at 9:00 a.m. (MTThF) or 5:30 p.m. (Weds) plus Sat vigil and four Masses on Sunday. We also have communion service at 5:30 p.m. every day (MTThF) and 9:00 a.m. (W), published in the bulletin. We’re not a remote mission, though the church building does look like a mission . There are at least 15 other Catholic churches within a 20 mile radius, so we’re really not isolated.

What, if anything, should I do? I haven’t a clue if the diocese knows. I wonder if they even know about the guidance from the Vatican.

Another question about the nature of the communion service. We have perpetual adoration from 6 a.m. until 10 p.m. daily; I have the hour from 5-6 p.m. on Monday . This week, I was at a loss when a woman walked in and started a communion service with about five parishoners. It was nearly as long as the mass had been that morning, and her “homily” was longer than the priest’s had been. I wanted to walk out, it was very uncomfortable and seemed very wrong. We have a priest, he celebrated mass that morning and would again the next morning–why do we need an amatuer substitute for five mobile, healthy looking adult parishoners? But I’m pretty new at this and figured maybe this was some ritual I just hadn’t learned yet. I couldn’t bring myself to participate (in the responses) and just stayed kneeling in prayer at the Tabernacle, apart from this group. Plus, I’m responsible to stay in the adoration area from 5 until the next adorer shows up, and couldn’t leave.

Maybe it was a “humilty test?” I get those a lot now…

Now that floors me! I’d tell the priest about it. And the diocese as well. Perhaps mention the Vatican document “Redemptionis Sacramentum”. But I’m afraid I’d be at a loss really!! The use of communion service at this parish is way over the top! Was this the regularly scheduled communion service for Mondays at 5:30 or another one and then there was the one at 5:30 someplace else?

 

[GwenL]

Well, I’m glad to hear that my instincts of discomfort were right.

This was the scheduled communion service. There’s one every weekday, this was the Monday service.

Yes, it was a full blown communion service. I thought maybe I’d wandered into another parallel quasi-Catholic universe, where the liberals and people who think women should be ordained won , when she started reading the Gospel, and even said the “through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit” part. Isn’t that the priest’s part?

As the communion service is published in the bulletin, I’m sure the priest knows about it. I don’t know if he knows the full extent of what’s going on. Maybe I can figure out a way to ask him in RCIA class, “what is a communion service, and of what should it consist?” Of course, there’s always the old standby, “don’t ask the question if you can’t stand the answer.”

 

[FrCorey]

Well, I’m glad to hear that my instincts of discomfort were right.

This was the scheduled communion service. There’s one every weekday, this was the Monday service.

Yes, it was a full blown communion service. I thought maybe I’d wandered into another parallel quasi-Catholic universe, where the liberals and people who think women should be ordained won , when she started reading the Gospel, and even said the “through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit” part. Isn’t that the priest’s part?

As the communion service is published in the bulletin, I’m sure the priest knows about it. I don’t know if he knows the full extent of what’s going on. Maybe I can figure out a way to ask him in RCIA class, “what is a communion service, and of what should it consist?” Of course, there’s always the old standby, “don’t ask the question if you can’t stand the answer.”

without a priest they should be using the rites from sunday commuinon without a priest. but you still need at least a deacon for that. only a authorized cleric should be handling sacraments.
I would tell the area bishop they are not performing the proper rites.

 

[FrDavid96]

without a priest they should be using the rites from sunday commuinon without a priest. but you still need at least a deacon for that. only a authorized cleric should be handling sacraments.
I would tell the area bishop they are not performing the proper rites.

Yet, they still can’t use the “Sunday” rite for a weekday.

What really bothers me here is that the woman leading this is doing part of the Eucharistic Prayer (at least part, we don’t know how much). That part certainly needs to be brought to the attention of the bishop.

 

[GwenL]

Father David–am I correct in understanding that a lay person cannot do any part of the Eucharistic prayer? That is, the words listed in the Roman Missal under "Eucharistic Prayer I, II, III, etc., and including the section titled, “The Eucharistic Prayer culminates and concludes…”

This laywoman conducting the communion service did that entire last part (the culmination/conclusion), along with other parts of the Eucharistic Prayer.

 

[FrDavid96]

Father David–am I correct in understanding that a lay person cannot do any part of the Eucharistic prayer? That is, the words listed in the Roman Missal under "Eucharistic Prayer I, II, III, etc., and including the section titled, “The Eucharistic Prayer culminates and concludes…”

This laywoman conducting the communion service did that entire last part (the culmination/conclusion), along with other parts of the Eucharistic Prayer.

Right. No one, not even a deacon can do ANY parts of the Eucharistic Prayer; except for the congregation’s response “Christ has died…” (or the others) and the “Amen” at the end.

 

[benedictgal]

Right. No one, not even a deacon can do ANY parts of the Eucharistic Prayer; except for the congregation’s response “Christ has died…” (or the others) and the “Amen” at the end.

Here is what Ecclesia de Mysterio says:

1. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers – e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology – or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

Even though this was not a Mass, what the woman did was treading on dangerous ground. The bishop needs to know about this.

 

[recondelta]

Back in the 1950’s I grew up in what was one of the largest Catholic Parishes in the country. Every Monday through Friday there were Masses at 6:15, 7:00, 8:00, and 8:45. (The padres could really move through the Latin.) At the 6:15 Mass you could either stay for the Mass or, just before Mass started, simply walk up to rail, receive the Eucharist, and leave. A lot of working people “hit the rail” on those mornings. I remember this because I used to serve a lot of these Masses. Lest you get the wrong idea, I had ulterior motives; the more early Masses - and funerals - that you served, the more weddings you got. Weddings of course meant $$ for the servers.

Nowdays, even if there were enough Catholics to justify it, any parish doing this would I fear soon feel the wrath of the liturgical purists.

 

[FrCorey]

Here is what Ecclesia de Mysterio says:

Even though this was not a Mass, what the woman did was treading on dangerous ground. The bishop needs to know about this.

I agree, no one is to say the words of the priest, but the priest.

 

[GwenL]

Well, none of that is good news.

Thanks for your answers, though

Wonder why people think the bishop needs to know? Shouldn’t the priest who’s running the parish have a chance to solve it first? I’m talking here about the woman leading the alternate-universe communion service. I think that’s the far more serious abuse.

The fact that the parish is holding communion services when it shouldn’t is a separate issue, I think.

So, now I have to figure out how to approach the priest.

Sigh.

 

[FrCorey]

Well, none of that is good news.

Thanks for your answers, though

Wonder why people think the bishop needs to know? Shouldn’t the priest who’s running the parish have a chance to solve it first? I’m talking here about the woman leading the alternate-universe communion service. I think that’s the far more serious abuse.

The fact that the parish is holding communion services when it shouldn’t is a separate issue, I think.

So, now I have to figure out how to approach the priest.

Sigh.

the bishop is sort of the head priest, he is suppost to know his people are doing what they are suppost to.

 

[benedictgal]

Well, none of that is good news.

Thanks for your answers, though

Wonder why people think the bishop needs to know? Shouldn’t the priest who’s running the parish have a chance to solve it first? I’m talking here about the woman leading the alternate-universe communion service. I think that’s the far more serious abuse.

The fact that the parish is holding communion services when it shouldn’t is a separate issue, I think.

So, now I have to figure out how to approach the priest.

Sigh.

This is happening under the priest’s watch. Redemptionis Sacramentum has been around for five years now. The bishop needs to know what is happening in his diocese. Inasmuch as the priest is the first order of approach, he must also be held accountable to the bishop.

You can certainly write a letter to the priest regarding this situation, but, mark a copy to the bishop.

The two issues are one in the same thing: stuff is happening in the parish that should not be occuring and it deals with the integrity of the lliturgy.

 

[FrDavid96]

Well, none of that is good news.

Thanks for your answers, though

Wonder why people think the bishop needs to know? Shouldn’t the priest who’s running the parish have a chance to solve it first? I’m talking here about the woman leading the alternate-universe communion service. I think that’s the far more serious abuse.

The fact that the parish is holding communion services when it shouldn’t is a separate issue, I think.

So, now I have to figure out how to approach the priest.

Sigh.

The reason why the bishop has to know is because this comes very very close to impersonating a priest–and that’s a serious problem indeed. It doesn’t cross that line, but like I said, it’s close enough that the bishop needs to know.

 

[Phemie]

Well, none of that is good news.

Thanks for your answers, though

Wonder why people think the bishop needs to know? Shouldn’t the priest who’s running the parish have a chance to solve it first? I’m talking here about the woman leading the alternate-universe communion service. I think that’s the far more serious abuse.

The fact that the parish is holding communion services when it shouldn’t is a separate issue, I think.

So, now I have to figure out how to approach the priest.

Sigh.

Before you judge this woman you should attend other communion services and see how they are done. It’s quite possible that this woman is using exactly what she has been trained to use in that parish and that everyone who is leading one of these services is doing the same thing. That doesn’t make it right but it means that they are being trained to do it that way.

It’s possible that they are functioning with old documents. I had a ‘service in the absence of a priest’ book in my parish that had been published by a regional (as opposed to national) conference of bishops and in it it said that gathering as a community on Sunday even if you had no priest and had to have a “Communion Service” was more important that attending Mass in a neighbouring parish and splitting up the community. I’m sure there are still small isolated communities who have that manual as their resource.

 

[FrDavid96]

Before you judge this woman you should attend other communion services and see how they are done. It’s quite possible that this woman is using exactly what she has been trained to use in that parish and that everyone who is leading one of these services is doing the same thing. That doesn’t make it right but it means that they are being trained to do it that way.

It’s possible that they are functioning with old documents. I had a ‘service in the absence of a priest’ book in my parish that had been published by a regional (as opposed to national) conference of bishops and in it it said that gathering as a community on Sunday even if you had no priest and had to have a “Communion Service” was more important that attending Mass in a neighbouring parish and splitting up the community. I’m sure there are still small isolated communities who have that manual as their resource.

Phemie,
If the problem is more widespread, it only means that there is even more of a responsibility to bring this to the bishop’s attention–not less.

 

[Phemie]

Phemie,
If the problem is more widespread, it only means that there is even more of a responsibility to bring this to the bishop’s attention–not less.

Oh, I totally agree. I was perhaps reading more into Gwen’s post that I should have but it just seemed to be implying something about that particular woman as opposed to the usual parish practice.

 

[GwenL]

Phemie, I’ve observed exactly one other communion service (also during my adoration hour). That one was short, about five minutes, and the woman conducting it didn’t read scripture, didn’t do a “reflection,” and didn’t say any of the priest’s prayers. So, my universe of observation is small.

So, Father David, exactly how does one go about informing the bishop? Without jumping off the cliff consequently, so to speak.

 

[Phemie]

Phemie, I’ve observed exactly one other communion service (also during my adoration hour). That one was short, about five minutes, and the woman conducting it didn’t read scripture, didn’t do a “reflection,” and didn’t say any of the priest’s prayers. So, my universe of observation is small.

So, Father David, exactly how does one go about informing the bishop? Without jumping off the cliff consequently, so to speak.

No Scripture in a liturgy? That’s unusual too.

I would first document what you saw and write to Fr. stating your concern. If you get no reply or no satisfaction, write to the bishop, enclosing the letter you originally wrote to Fr.