Mass of the Angels

[MarkThompson]

I’ve also read here at CAF (boy, you learn something new everyday here!) that the angels also speak Latin in heaven.

I wonder if they use dollar bills since they are engraved with “E Pluribus Unum?”

If they do, they probably withdraw them at this Latin ATM:

 

[Paxvobis]

I frequent three parishes, two OF and one EF.

This is what we use for the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Sanctus, and the Angus Dei at one of the OF Parishes. The Credo isn’t sung there.

At my FSSP Parish, I’ve never heard them use anything other than the Orbis Factor musical setting and Credo III.

The Mass of the Angels is defiantly one of my favorite Mass settings.

 

[Love_Divine]

I fear, though, that if Latin and chant become the norm at Catholic Mass, then I will have to attend a Lutheran service every weekend to hear and sing good, solid hymns in my own language. Oh, well.

In doing so you’d pretty much be damning your soul, as it’s a mortal sin to willfully not attend Mass on Sunday without good cause. Furthermore, it’s another mortal sin to willfully actively participate in a non-Catholic Sunday service.

Honestly, we don’t go to Mass for the music. We go for the Most Holy Sacrifice.

PS: Latin and Gregorian Chant are the norm for the Roman Catholic Church. It’s our tradition. It’s part of our Catholic Identity.

 

[Cat]

In doing so you’d pretty much be damning your soul, as it’s a mortal sin to willfully not attend Mass on Sunday without good cause. Furthermore, it’s another mortal sin to willfully actively participate in a non-Catholic Sunday service.

Honestly, we don’t go to Mass for the music. We go for the Most Holy Sacrifice.

PS: Latin and Gregorian Chant are the norm for the Roman Catholic Church. It’s our tradition. It’s part of our Catholic Identity.

I would continue attending Mass.

Many of the more traditional Catholics have a difficult time listening to modern music in the Mass, to the point where some of them are actually willing to attend Masses presented by groups who have a questionable relationship with Rome.

Is that OK?

Or they are willing to drive many many miles to attend a more traditional Mass with ancient music.

Is that OK?

Or if these options are not available to them, they sit cringing and sad through the “modern” Mass, often unwilling to even open the hymnal to follow along with the “modern” music.

Is that OK?

Music and language are deeply personal. I can recognize with my MIND that Gregorian chant and Latin are the traditions of the Church and I can accept that and docilely attend a Mass in which these are done.

But that doesn’t mean that it touches my heart and thrills my soul.

In the same way, more traditional-minded Catholics can recognize with their MIND that the modern music (Haugen, Haas, St. Louis Jesuits, etc.) and the vernacular ARE allowed at Mass.

But that doesn’t mean that these things will touch their heart and thrill their soul. (In fact, if you read some of the posts in CAF, it is obvious that some Catholics are actually wounded in their souls by hearing modern Christian music and their own language instead of Latin.)

I am personally extremely grateful that at this point in history, the Catholic Church gives Catholics different options for Mass, so that most of us can find a Mass that is both liturgically correct and aesthetically uplifting to our souls–AND is done by a parish that is in full and happy communion with Rome.

I see nothing mortal about desiring to listen to uplifting, inspiring music that is in my own language and has a Western-style melody and rhythm. e.g., Crown Him With Many Crowns. IF these kinds of hymns are no longer done in the Mass and the only music done is the meandering chant done in a foreign language, I would still attend Mass because that is where I receive Jesus Christ, and that is what is most important.

But whenever possible, I would attend some kind of church service where I could hear the music that thrills me personally and encourages me personally. It would be merely a concert to me, not a “worship” experience. If listening to and enjoying good Christian music is a mortal sin, then I admit my guilt.

 

[Brendan]

You asked the question, “Why don’t we hear this more often at Mass?”

The answer is, “Because it’s hard to learn unless you have a musical background and a good conductor, and probably a rehearsal accompanist, since so few people read music.” .

Not true. Our entire family knows these, and we know them the same way that we know any other music, but hearing it and repeating it.

It works for songs on the radio, and it works for the Missae de Angelis.

In our parish, the organist plays it, and the congregation sings it. No ‘conductor’ necessary.

 

[OraLabora]

PS: Latin and Gregorian Chant are the norm for the Roman Catholic Church. It’s our tradition. It’s part of our Catholic Identity.

No, it’s not part of our “Catholic” identity; it’s part of our Roman Rite identity and heritage. It just happens that in Western countries, the Roman Rite is the best-known. Eastern Churches in communion with Rome are just as “Catholic” as we are, and Gregorian chant is foreign to them.

When the Anglican use becomes more prevalent, the wider Catholic Church will gain another new and rich patrimony of music that is not Gregorian chant. We should embrace this diversity, and avoid being tribal.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

It can be done.
We sing Mass of angels when we can muster the choir together.
And we sound fine. Like all music, it takes time to learn and practive to sound good.
You are not goint to pick this up overnight.

I personally don’t care for it, not that Cat’s personal opinion matters. But I just want to make sure you realize that not everyone agrees with you that it brings heaven closer to us.

I prefer hymns, both traditional and modern, in my own language, with a regular melody that I can hum as I am working or playing outside of Mass.

But to each his own. I respect your opinion and preference.

You asked the question, “Why don’t we hear this more often at Mass?”

The answer is, “Because it’s hard to learn unless you have a musical background and a good conductor, and probably a rehearsal accompanist, since so few people read music.”

The version that you linked us to is being sung very well by good singers. Honestly now, how do you think that same music would sound sung by the people in your parish? If YOU had to sing it, would YOU sound good, like the people in your link?

My husband and I listened to a CD of Gregorian chant a few weeks ago. His comment was, “Well, if the singers in the church all sound like that, it would be OK. Problem is, the singers in most churches don’t sound like that. It would end up sounding like those funny cat videos–meeerwwrowal!”

Now with a good conductor and some good singers who actually have time to do some rehearsing, this Mass would sound OK to those who like this kind of music.

 

[TrueLight]

No, it’s not part of our “Catholic” identity; it’s part of our Roman Rite identity and heritage. It just happens that in Western countries, the Roman Rite is the best-known. Eastern Churches in communion with Rome are just as “Catholic” as we are, and Gregorian chant is foreign to them.

When the Anglican use becomes more prevalent, the wider Catholic Church will gain another new and rich patrimony of music that is not Gregorian chant. We should embrace this diversity, and avoid being tribal.

Okay, it’s not part of our Roman Rite identity and heritage. Better?

I think we all know we’re not talking about Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy.

 

[Love_Divine]

I would continue attending Mass.
As Catholics we’re still not permitted to regularly attend non-Catholic worship services.
Many of the more traditional Catholics have a difficult time listening to modern music in the Mass, to the point where some of them are actually willing to attend Masses presented by groups who have a questionable relationship with Rome.

Is that OK?
**No, but that doesn’t make it any better for another Catholic to regularly attend protestant church services. **

Or they are willing to drive many many miles to attend a more traditional Mass with ancient music.

Is that OK?
Absolutely! I was driving 200 km one way throughout Lent to attend Mass in the EF, as well as the traditional form of Confession on Saturday nights at a parish in a city with an FSSP Apostolate. It was well worth the drive. It was the most edifying experience ever and I came to a much better and deeper understanding and appreciation for Mass and the Most Holy Sacrfice.

Or if these options are not available to them, they sit cringing and sad through the “modern” Mass, often unwilling to even open the hymnal to follow along with the “modern” music.

Is that OK?
Absolutely not! This is why we need to bring back Gregorian Chant and polyphony and restore Mass to what its original sacredness and solemnity

Music and language are deeply personal. I can recognize with my MIND that Gregorian chant and Latin are the traditions of the Church and I can accept that and docilely attend a Mass in which these are done.

But that doesn’t mean that it touches my heart and thrills my soul.
That’s not the point of the music at Mass. It’s supposed to help you to pray (which Gregorian Chant does).

In the same way, more traditional-minded Catholics can recognize with their MIND that the modern music (Haugen, Haas, St. Louis Jesuits, etc.) and the vernacular ARE allowed at Mass.
Haugen isn’t even Catholic, he’s Luthern, and his music he writes isn’t Catholic.

But that doesn’t mean that these things will touch their heart and thrill their soul. (In fact, if you read some of the posts in CAF, it is obvious that some Catholics are actually wounded in their souls by hearing modern Christian music and their own language instead of Latin.)

I am personally extremely grateful that at this point in history, the Catholic Church gives Catholics different options for Mass, so that most of us can find a Mass that is both liturgically correct and aesthetically uplifting to our souls–AND is done by a parish that is in full and happy communion with Rome.

I see nothing mortal about desiring to listen to uplifting, inspiring music that is in my own language and has a Western-style melody and rhythm. e.g., Crown Him With Many Crowns. IF these kinds of hymns are no longer done in the Mass and the only music done is the meandering chant done in a foreign language, I would still attend Mass because that is where I receive Jesus Christ, and that is what is most important.

But whenever possible, I would attend some kind of church service where I could hear the music that thrills me personally and encourages me personally. It would be merely a concert to me, not a “worship” experience. If listening to and enjoying good Christian music is a mortal sin, then I admit my guilt.
**You know, you can buy all that modern church music on iTunes? Much less damaging to your soul, and 9 times out of 10 it sounds better than what you hear at Mass. That’s what I did. You have to learn to accept that what goes on in Mass with all the guitars, congas, accordions, etc isn’t appropriate for Mass and be willing to let the appropriate solemn music be used. **

Replies in purple.

 

[Cat]

Replies in purple.

I didn’t say anything about guitars, congas, etc. :tsktsk:

I mentioned by name the hymn, “Crown Him With Many Crowns.” I’m sure that there are arrangements using congas and guitars and all the rest, but the arrangements I know and love are played on the organ or piano. Do you know this hymn? Do you like it? I do, and I like other hymns in the same genre (traditional praise).

Another thing that you said–“Mass music is supposed to help you pray…which Gregorian chant music does.”

No! No, it’s doesn’t! It helps YOU pray! But it makes me cringe! I don’t pray well while I’m cringing!

That’s why I said that the Lord is going to have to change me to help me to at least learn to listen to chant without cringing. Perhaps someday I will be able to listen to it with pleasure.

But at this point, and for the past seven years that I have been Catholic, I have not been able to learn to appreciate any kind of chant. I find it very strange and unpleasant to listen to, and I generally can’t listen to much of it without gritting my teeth.

But as I said before, if this does become the normal music of Mass, I will obey and attend Mass and put up with the music. That’s what many of the traditional-minded Catholics do now–attend Masses where they hate the music and hate the vernacular. But they go anyway out of obedience. Obedience is more important than our liking something.

I personally don’t think it’s likely to become the norm. It’s a novelty right now, and people are curious about anything “new.” But once it becomes the norm, most people will grow bored with it and search for music that warms their heart. Some will love it, but I don’t think it’s going to catch on. We’ve had a schola in our city for over a decade, and it only attracts a few dozen people.

 

[Timothysis]

Honestly, we don’t go to Mass for the music. We go for the Most Holy Sacrifice.

Then why the insistence on Gregorian chant??? Why can’t we just use the time-honored hymns as Cat mentioned?

I’m with Cat on this one. Chant becomes dull and boring very quick. I would rather sing something like Crown Him With Many Crowns, To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King, or Immaculate Mary.

 

[hudson]

So you like this better then what I posted?

youtube.com/watch?v=JWCEFKsZqLY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I am definitely not with you. This to me sounds horrible and I believe it shouldn’t be given priority in a Catholic Mass. Just my opinion.

 

[TrueLight]

It doesn’t have to be one or the other. There can be awesome chant and latin polyphonic music and there could be beautiful, reverent, traditional hymns especially at the processional and recessional or even during the communion.

 

[TheMc]

Another thing that you said–“Mass music is supposed to help you pray…which Gregorian chant music does.”

No! No, it’s doesn’t! It helps YOU pray! But it makes me cringe! I don’t pray well while I’m cringing!

That’s why I said that the Lord is going to have to change me to help me to at least learn to listen to chant without cringing. Perhaps someday I will be able to listen to it with pleasure.

But at this point, and for the past seven years that I have been Catholic, I have not been able to learn to appreciate any kind of chant. I find it very strange and unpleasant to listen to, and I generally can’t listen to much of it without gritting my teeth.

But as I said before, if this does become the normal music of Mass, I will obey and attend Mass and put up with the music. That’s what many of the traditional-minded Catholics do now–attend Masses where they hate the music and hate the vernacular. But they go anyway out of obedience. Obedience is more important than our liking something.

I personally don’t think it’s likely to become the norm. It’s a novelty right now, and people are curious about anything “new.” But once it becomes the norm, most people will grow bored with it and search for music that warms their heart. Some will love it, but I don’t think it’s going to catch on. We’ve had a schola in our city for over a decade, and it only attracts a few dozen people.

I hate to be so frank, but here’s two things:

1. Chant is the norm, but no one is listening. That is the primary music of the Roman Rite.
2. Maybe you need to get used to chant, because as I said before, as roman catholics, this is the music of the Roman Rite.

 

[TheMc]

Then why the insistence on Gregorian chant??? Why can’t we just use the time-honored hymns as Cat mentioned?

Because that is what the church asks us to do, and has done for quite a long time (until VII)

 

[Cat]

I hate to be so frank, but here’s two things:

1. Chant is the norm, but no one is listening. That is the primary music of the Roman Rite.
2. Maybe you need to get used to chant, because as I said before, as roman catholics, this is the music of the Roman Rite.

I’m sure I could get used to it. But that isn’t the same as liking it.

 

[TheMc]

I’m sure I could get used to it. But that isn’t the same as liking it.

You might be surprised. I said the same thing the first time I heard chant, and look where I am now.

Keep in mind that I’m not proposing that these changes happen overnight either (though I wish they would). People are frequently slow and resistant to change. Blame Adam and Eve for that one.

 

[archangel04]

Someone always has to do this on every post. I am speaking strictly about music in the Mass not about the Eucharist. I am sure you knew that though and just wanted to try and put me down.

Sorry hudson but it’s like this always. You can’t state a preference while haveint the “watchdogs” comming after you about if you state your prefference about th EF, Latin, or Gragorian you must also add a note after that you see everything else equal as well. Get used to it my friend.

 

[archangel04]

Thanks for trying. I couldn’t even sit through more than a few minutes of these. I really really don’t like this kind of music. I didn’t think it sounded good at all.

Now I’m kind of worried. The Holy Spirit is going to have to do some major work on my soul to help me to listen to this music without cringing. At the moment, it just gives me the heebie jeebies.

I guess if this kind of music ever does become the “norm” at Masses, it will strengthen my character, won’t it? There’s nothing like sitting through something that you don’t like to make you not think about yourself, right?

I fear, though, that if Latin and chant become the norm at Catholic Mass, then I will have to attend a Lutheran service every weekend to hear and sing good, solid hymns in my own language. Oh, well.

Why am I not surprised that everytime anyone post anything about Gregorian or a chant not in your wonderful language or should I say the language that should be the norm, Enlglish, you have to say something negative?

 

[archangel04]

The Byzantines, Copts, Syrians, Old Romans, and others will be very interested to learn that! If only they adopted Gregorian chant (Solesmes editions exclusively, please), just think how much closer they would be to the angels! It’s an objective fact, after all.

Hey I have an idea, why don’t we just adopt all the practices and music of the Eastern Churches? Then we would truly be unified no?