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Mass readings / commentary (Jesus is known in the breaking of bread / Transubstantiation... which is rejected by most Christians, Catholics included)
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
QUOTE=qui est ce;6505456]Thank you. Knowing all this, the Last Supper and the 4 cups, etc. That was the Seder meal, on Thursday. right? Jesus died on the cross at 3 PM on Friday. According to Jeff Cavins, and I think Scott Hahn, the lambs for the Passover were slaughtered at 3PM on FRIDAY, at the same hour that Jesus, the Paschal Lamb died. I’m having difficulty reconciling two Passovers.
We do not have 2 Passovers here to speak of but only One Passover which combined the feast of the Matzoh, unleavend bread and wine.Unless Thursday-Friday were one long Passover until Jesus said, “It is finished.” Thus signifying the end of Passover. If this is so, what was the High Holy day being celebrated on Saturday?
Our Gregorian calender of days is not the same as the first century Jews kept time. The Jews kept to a lunar calender, so a new day began at the setting of sun when the moon is revealed, so our midnight changing of days can not be expressed here from scipture. What may appear to be happening in two different days “Thursday” and “Friday” is not viewed the same from a first century Jew when these events Last Supper and Passover happen on the same day.
In the High Holy day Sabbath, the Jewish faithful were to remain at rest, and consume the sacrifical lamb in their dwelling as if on the run (Exodus) this feast began at 3pm Friday which remained Friday unitl Saturday evening, The Sabbath Saturday enters and ends into what we know as Sunday the first Creation day now made a new creation day in Jesus Christ resurrection. By law these could do nothing ( no work) and were restricted to their homes. Jesus sufficed this perpetual law in himself by resting his humanity for us all on the Sabbath.
This new creation day in the resurrection when the Sabbath ends, is when the Search for the hidden manna begins, and Mary Magdelen finds the hidden manna Jesus resurrected and she is promised eternal life amen.
Remember in this Jewish Tradition I introduced earlier; it is the Father who has hidden the Manna from his children.
"Eat unleavened bread for 7 days. On the seventh day, 3 sheets of bread (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in the rectangle shape (unleavened breads) are made and stacked. The middle sheet ( the Son) of unleavened bread is taken broken, (Eucharist at the last supper passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ)** part is eaten and part is wrapped in Linen Cloth and then hidden** (the crucifixion and burial of Jesus body). **On the first day after the 7th day **(Sunday the first creation day from Genesis now the new creation day in the resurrection). All are set out to seek out the hidden manna, and the one who finds the hidden manna on the first day of the week will inherit eternal life.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Jesus didn’t establish the Eucharist as something that any two believers can gather together and consecrate. He established a sacramental system and Holy Orders as a means of preserving the unity of the Church and giving recognizable structure to it. We can’t just abandon that because we worry that it makes us look exclusive or smug.QUOTE=distracted;6506226]
Holy Orders from scripture, must be unbroken;
John17: 14 I gave them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.
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6 I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one.
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**They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.
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Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.
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As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
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And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. 20
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
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so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 **
**And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23
I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. **
Acts 1: 8 But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
Mathew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
John 20: 21** (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
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15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
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16 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” **
Luke 10: 16 **Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." **
Ephesians 2: 19** So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God,**
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built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, **with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. 10 **
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**Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord; **
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in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
John 21: Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Feed my lambs.” 16 **He then said to him a second time, **“Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” **17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” **(Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep. **
1Peter 2:5
**and, like living stones, let yourselves be built 4 into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. **8
and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny. **
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5 But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may announce the praises” of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. **
Hebrews 5;1 Every high priest is taken from among men and made their representative before God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2
He is able to deal patiently 3 with the ignorant and erring, for he himself is beset by weakness
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and so, for this reason, must make sin offerings for himself as well as for the people.
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No one takes this honor upon himself but only when called by God, just as Aaron was. 5
**In the same way, it was not Christ who glorified himself in becoming high priest, but rather the one who said to him: “You are my son; this day I have begotten you”; **
Hebrews 7: 24** but he, because he remains forever, has a priesthood that does not pass away.
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17 Therefore, he is always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them. **
Mathew 16; 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
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And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
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I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Mathew 28; 18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, **“All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
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Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
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teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” **
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
So what meal was Jesus eating Thursday night BEFORE the lambs were slaughtered for the Passover?In the High Holy day Sabbath, the Jewish faithful were to remain at rest, and consume the sacrifical lamb in their dwelling as if on the run (Exodus) this feast began at 3pm Friday which remained Friday unitl Saturday evening, The Sabbath Saturday enters and ends into what we know as Sunday the first Creation day now made a new creation day in Jesus Christ resurrection. By law these could do nothing ( no work) and were restricted to their homes. Jesus sufficed this perpetual law in himself by resting his humanity for us all on the Sabbath.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
So what meal was Jesus eating Thursday night BEFORE the lambs were slaughtered for the Passover?
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It would be easy to say the Seder meal, the beginning of the Mazzoth =unleavened bread and wine which combined them both.
Your contemplation here on the Last Supper is wonderful and deserves much explanation. The time frame can appear complicated on the surface without knowing what Jesus is actually doing in the Last Supper besides instituting His Eucharist.
At the Last supper, Jesus was conducting the “Messianic Banquet” prophecised from the Prophet Isaiah 25:6. This wonderful Messianic banquet begins with Jesus and his disciples before his passion, now celebrated on “earth as it is in heaven” in his resurrection in the Liturgy of the Mass, where Jesus does not drink anew until the fulfillment of the kingdom of God. Jesus describes this in Mt. 8:11, Lk 14:15-24. The “anticipation” the fourth cup will be shared in the next banquet in the Kingdom of the Father (Mt. 26:29, Lk 22:16, 18, Lk 22:29 adds the promise when they are seated at the messianic banquet in the Kingdom.)
What gives me joy to share with you here, is that we now share in this banquet revealed on earth in our Mass liturgy celebrated with heaven in “anticipation” Revelations 3:20, 19:9
In the Old Testament the Jews ate two celebrated meals one in the morning and one in the evening. In the 2nd temple Jews, from the Gospel accounts we have four settings of meals, the fourth the “cena” which was taken about the 9th hour = 3-4 pm.
What is hidden in the Last supper meal and then gets revealed is God is making a New Covenant with his chosen in himself, by fulfilling the Old Covenant passover in his sacrifical body, blood. Understanding how God prepares his people before they enter his covenant reaches its climax when God always reveals himself "not"on the Sabbath, but on the Eigth day, the first day of creation “Sunday”.
I may have commented more than is needed here, but if you want to pursue this contemplation further, requires prayer, and reading the scriptures from the Law, and prophets which point to this New Covenant “anticipated” by the chosen of God.
Seperating hours and days during the Passover which includes two meals the bread, wine, and bitter herbs, then the eating of the sacrificial lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World, which includes the Mazzoth meal, Todah, Sukut (with palm branches).
The Seder meal which consisted of the four cups which included unleavened bread and wine and herbs, and in the same Seder the consuming of the Sacrificial lamb. The seder meal overshadowed the Passover sacrifice by the first century Jews, before the destruction of the temple and became common reverence after the destruction of the temple, when they could no longer sacrifice animals in the temple…
Here is a mystery, we are still celebrating this passover “seder” meal on earth until we celebrate anew in heaven.
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
I may have commented more than is needed here, but if you want to pursue this contemplation further, requires prayer, and reading the scriptures from the Law, and prophets which point to this New Covenant “anticipated” by the chosen of God.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Mark 14:1 The Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were to take place in two days’ time. So the chief priests and the scribes were seeking a way to arrest him by treachery and put him to death.Gabriel of 12;6516002 said:Thank you for your beautiful and detailed account. Would it be accurate to say the Seder meal began on Holy Thursday and ended at 3PM on Friday when Jesus took the fourth cup and said, “It is finished.” meaning the Passover is finished?
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They said, “Not during the festival, for fear that there may be a riot among the people.”
12
On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, 3 his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?”
Fascinating; In the “it is finished”. The Old Covenant Law demanded a Life or “death, blood” to pay for the sins of the people. Jesus is that life he gives freely for us in his last breath “It is finished” also Jesus just took a sip of wine from the sprig of Hissop, a broom mop used to spread the blood of the lamb on the door posts of those being delivered from the angel of death, so Jesus the temple of God now drips his blood on the wooden posts of his cross outside the gates of the Old temple of God in Jerusalem.
At the same time Jesus has just fulfilled his “Todah” promise, and the Perpetual sacrificial Passover in himself. Here is another mystery, We have to consume this Passover Lamb sacrifice in order to pass over from death into eternal life, as Jesus promises those have ears to hear, to eat his body and drink his blood. Now this Todah meal has to be shared in “anticipation” for what God is going to do for the one making the Vow, and then when this Todah is finished, the Vow maker Jesus will again share this meal in victory celebration with his “Friends” a title Jesus gives his disciples.
John 19:31
Now since it was preparation day, in order that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, for the sabbath day of that week was a solemn one, the Jews asked Pilate that their legs be broken and they be taken down.
This solemn one may be pointing to the Sukut and other feasts included in this Passover, which can extend and include more days as the scripture states this passover will “take place in two day time”.
The Passover “Meal” did not end at 3pm. The combined feast began on Thursday at the Last supper. This is the hour when they sacrificed the last lambs for the passover. Their is another Jewish time sequence when lambs are prepared and sacrificed, the Gospels reflect these passover hours.
John 19:24 Then they crucified him and divided his garments by casting lots for them to see what each should take.
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**It was nine o’clock in the morning 10 when they crucified him. **
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**At noon **darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.
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And at three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” 14 which is translated, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Luke 23:44
7 It was now about **noon **and darkness came over the whole land **until three in the afternoon **
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because of an eclipse of the sun. Then the veil of the temple was torn down the middle.
You know it takes much more study to distinguish the Gospel recorded Jewish times with those of the recorded Roman times which are two different clocks. This might be what can cause confusion. When time is referenced in a stated hour of “Watch” and hour of “Prayer”.
In each of these hours, at the same time, the Priests are preparing and killing the Lambs to offer up to God. The consuming of the lamb happens in the Sabbath at sunset Friday into Saturday, but we have to remember this is solemn Passover. That is why they hurried to place Jesus body in the tomb.
I have to say thus far we have only introduced this “solemn Passover”, which is to last two days not one, the unleavened Mazzoth lasts 7 days. Now we get into gematria which deals with the number of the covenant of 7. Now we get into more detail of what actually takes place in this preparation of and celebration of this “solemn Passover”.
If you want more on these details you might place a search on the word “Tamyid” if you want to take this topic in another Jewish mindset from the first century. This will give you a more detail of the slaughter of victims and time frame. IF I introduce here, I may put you to sleep.
Peace be with you
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
Well, I’m still confused. I thought the significance of Jesus dying at 3PM on Friday coincided with the slaughter of the sheep FOR the Passover meal (Friday evening). Yet it appears they are celebrating the Passover meal on Thursday, continuing into Friday at 3PM when IT (Passover) is finished when Jesus drinks of the Fourth cup.2
They said, “Not during the festival, for fear that there may be a riot among the people.”
12
On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, w**hen they sacrificed the Passover lamb, 3 his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?” **
This solemn one may be pointing to the Sukut and other feasts included in this Passover, which can extend and include more days as the scripture states this passover will “take place in two day time”.
The Passover “Meal” did not end at 3pm. The combined feast began on Thursday at the Last supper. This is the hour when they sacrificed the last lambs for the passover. Their is another Jewish time sequence when lambs are prepared and sacrificed, the Gospels reflect these passover hours.
In each of these hours, at the same time, the Priests are preparing and killing the Lambs to offer up to God. The consuming of the lamb happens in the Sabbath at sunset Friday into Saturday, but we have to remember this is solemn Passover. That is why they hurried to place Jesus body in the tomb.
Peace be with you
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Ok, now I got you;Well, I’m still confused. I thought the significance of Jesus dying at 3PM on Friday coincided with the slaughter of the sheep FOR the Passover meal (Friday evening). Yet it appears they are celebrating the Passover meal on Thursday, continuing into Friday at 3PM when IT (Passover) is finished when Jesus drinks of the Fourth cup.
The Passover is a “week long feast” we have confirmation of this when Jesus dips in the Morsel a passover meal celebration activitiy ( Matthew 26.23 and in Mark 14.20).
The day of preparation mentioned in the Gospels “Friday” is not describing a single day of the Passover commencement, the preparation day which happens to land on a Friday during the week long passover feast is only referencing a day before the “Sabbath” when this day “Friday” ends at 6pm when the Sabbath begins.
If I could say this in english Friday was “Last call” before the Sabbath from their week long Passover celebrations. Friday was not stating the beginning of the passover celebration.
Does this help? Don’t confuse the Passover with the Sabbath. We can expound now what is going to happen during and after the Sabbath rest. The Passover describes in reality how Jesus body was taken captive by the High priest (a lamb chosen by the High priest and tied to the altar), Lamb prepared (tried and scourged at the pillar) crucified (lamb sacrificed) prepared to be eaten in the “SABBATH”.
Did Jesus celebrate a Passover meal celebration on Thursday, Yes, and much more Mazzoth, Chaburah, Todah… What we consume in the resurrection is the Lamb prepared for the Sabbath during the Passover celebrations, we eat the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world at the end of the Sabbath on Sunday resurrection day. The one who finds the hidden manna on Sunday, next day after the Sabbath gains eternal life.
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
I still don’t understand. **The lambs for the Passover **were slaughtered on Friday, the Preparation Day for the Sabbath (Saturday). I believe it was a Lambs were not slaughtered for the Sabbath.Ok, now I got you;
The Passover is a “week long feast” we have confirmation of this when Jesus dips in the Morsel a passover meal celebration activitiy ( Matthew 26.23 and in Mark 14.20).
The day of preparation mentioned in the Gospels “Friday” is not describing a single day of the Passover commencement, the preparation day which happens to land on a Friday during the week long passover feast is only referencing a day before the “Sabbath” when this day “Friday” ends at 6pm when the Sabbath begins.
If I could say this in english Friday was “Last call” before the Sabbath from their week long Passover celebrations. Friday was not stating the beginning of the passover celebration.
Does this help? Don’t confuse the Passover with the Sabbath. We can expound now what is going to happen during and after the Sabbath rest. The Passover describes in reality how Jesus body was taken captive by the High priest (a lamb chosen by the High priest and tied to the altar), Lamb prepared (tried and scourged at the pillar) crucified (lamb sacrificed) prepared to be eaten in the “SABBATH”.
Did Jesus celebrate a Passover meal celebration on Thursday, Yes, and much more Mazzoth, Chaburah, Todah… What we consume in the resurrection is the Lamb prepared for the Sabbath during the Passover celebrations, we eat the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world at the end of the Sabbath on Sunday resurrection day. The one who finds the hidden manna on Sunday, next day after the Sabbath gains eternal life.
Yet Jesus celebrated Passover on Thursday.
John 19:31
Thanks for all your help!Now since it was preparation day, in order that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, for the sabbath day of that week was a solemn one, the Jews asked Pilate that their legs be broken and they be taken down.
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