Mass, Real Presence, and John 16:7

[gazelam]

While debating other topics I recalled John 16:7 which states:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (KJV)

So, per the Catholic belief, what happens to the Holy Spirit during Mass once the wafer is changed into the body of Christ? (And per my LDS sensibility I’m assuming that Catholics belief that the Holy Spirit is present at Mass.) Once the body of Christ is present do Catholics belief that Comforter departs Mass? Or do Catholic believe that this verse only pertains to Christ’s Earthly ministry? Have any ECF’s weighed in, or does the CCC provide insight? Thanks in advance.

 

[ufamtobie]

While debating other topics I recalled John 16:7 which states:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (KJV)

So, per the Catholic belief, what happens to the Holy Spirit during Mass once the wafer is changed into the body of Christ? (And per my LDS sensibility I’m assuming that Catholics belief that the Holy Spirit is present at Mass.) Once the body of Christ is present do Catholics belief that Comforter departs Mass? Or do Catholic believe that this verse only pertains to Christ’s Earthly ministry? Have any ECF’s weighed in, or does the CCC provide insight? Thanks in advance.

Gazelm, The Holy Spirit is Present before, during , and after the Bread is changed into the body and blood of Christ.

Gazelam, Is the Holy Spirit not present in heaven because Jesus Christ is there in heaven?

God the Father, sent His only begotten Son into the world, Jesus in turn sends the Holy Spirit into the world. Jesus Left this world to send the Holy Spirit. Now this does not mean that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit can’t be together, for the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are One. Amen

Ufam Tobie

 

[JerryZ]

Jesus is a man and as a man he would influence by personal interaction like you and me are interacting now. By departing this earth the Holy Spirit is sent to the Apostles and each and every one of us which in turn joins us to the body of Christ.
The Holy Spirit we Catholics believe spoke before Jesus through the Prophets.
They were moved by Him.
However after Pentecostes it was manifest with more intensity and His action is present today as well.

 

[po18guy]

Matthew 28:20 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

If His body is in heaven, He is with us in the Eucharist.

1 Corinthians 11:23-25 23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Jesus gave the Apostles what appeared for all the world to be the same bread and wine that it was before. But, He told them that is was no longer bread and wine, but had become His Body and Blood. That is why the appearance of the Eucharist does not change. Its substance changes because Jesus said it does.

1 Corinthians 10:16 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

When you participate, you are involved in it. You become part of it and it of you.

1 Corinthians 6:19 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own;

It is by the action of the Holy Spirit that the bread and wine become His Body and Blood. The Holy Spirit is the animator of all creation.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Concerning Jn. 16:7, St. Augustine writes:

“…But if I depart, I will send Him unto you. …” This He says not on account of any inequality between the Word of God and the Holy Ghost, but because the presence of the Son of man amongst them would impede the coming of the latter. For the Holy Ghost did not humble Himself as did the Son, by taking upon Him the form of a servant. It was necessary therefore that the form of the servant should be removed from their eyes; for so long as they looked upon that, they thought that Christ was no more than what they saw Him to be. . . . (Source: of St. ThomasThe Golden Chain)

 

[gazelam]

Gazelm, The Holy Spirit is Present before, during , and after the Bread is changed into the body and blood of Christ.

Gazelam, Is the Holy Spirit not present in heaven because Jesus Christ is there in heaven?

God the Father, sent His only begotten Son into the world, Jesus in turn sends the Holy Spirit into the world. Jesus Left this world to send the Holy Spirit. Now this does not mean that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit can’t be together, for the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are One. Amen

Ufam Tobie

UT,
Thank you for responding. Perhaps the Holy Spirit and Jesus are present together in heaven, but the verse I quoted was to the Apostles who were on Earth like we are now. Thanks again.

 

[gazelam]

If His body is in heaven, He is with us in the Eucharist.

Jesus gave the Apostles what appeared for all the world to be the same bread and wine that it was before. But, He told them that is was no longer bread and wine, but had become His Body and Blood. That is why the appearance of the Eucharist does not change. Its substance changes because Jesus said it does.

When you participate, you are involved in it. You become part of it and it of you.

It is by the action of the Holy Spirit that the bread and wine become His Body and Blood. The Holy Spirit is the animator of all creation.

I like your thinking. :tiphat: I especially like your referring to 1 Corinthians 6:19. Although that makes me wonder why there is a need for TWO forms of the same God to be in us. Thanks for sharing.

 

[gazelam]

Concerning Jn. 16:7, St. Augustine writes:

“…But if I depart, I will send Him unto you. …” This He says not on account of any inequality between the Word of God and the Holy Ghost, but because the presence of the Son of man amongst them would impede the coming of the latter. For the Holy Ghost did not humble Himself as did the Son, by taking upon Him the form of a servant. It was necessary therefore that the form of the servant should be removed from their eyes; for so long as they looked upon that, they thought that Christ was no more than what they saw Him to be. . . . (Source: The Golden Chain of St. Thomas)

AO,
Thanks for sharing the Augustine quote. But how could Augustine possibly know “the Holy Ghost did not humble Himself as did the Son, by taking upon Him the form of a servant”? I’m unaware of anywhere in scripture that speaks of flaws in the Holy Ghost! Anyway, take care.

 

[po18guy]

I like your thinking. :tiphat: I especially like your referring to 1 Corinthians 6:19. Although that makes me wonder why there is a need for TWO forms of the same God to be in us. Thanks for sharing.

Have a look at Hebrews 7. Jesus is a Priest in the order of Melchizedek. Now, going way back to Genesis 14:18-20, we see that Melchizedek, Priest of God and King of (Jeru)Salem, brought out bread and wine in celebration of Abraham freeing the captives. We see from Matthew 1:1 that Jesus is “the son of David, the son of Abraham.” Jesus freed those captive to sin, and is Priest, Prophet and King in the order of Melchizedek. Thus, the bread and wine.

As well, the Holy Eucharist contains the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. Body and Blood are physical (two species), while the Soul and Divinity are metaphysical. The physical presence in Body and Blood also brings with it the metaphysical Soul and Divinity, as a living Christ must possess all four elements. In either specie, we receive the complete Christ, but in Body and Blood, we receive a fuller sign of that presence.

 

[joe371]

While debating other topics I recalled John 16:7 which states:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (KJV)

Why do you think the Holy Spirit was sent to Jesus’ fledgling church, comprised of the very first leaders e.g. the apostles?

 

[Ad_Orientem]

AO,
Thanks for sharing the Augustine quote. But how could Augustine possibly know “the Holy Ghost did not humble Himself as did the Son, by taking upon Him the form of a servant”? I’m unaware of anywhere in scripture that speaks of flaws in the Holy Ghost! Anyway, take care.

Gazelam, St. Augustine is referring to the Incarnation. The Word alone assumed a human nature; the Father and the Holy Ghost did not.

 

[andrewstx]

I like your thinking. :tiphat: I especially like your referring to 1 Corinthians 6:19. Although that makes me wonder why there is a need for TWO forms of the same God to be in us. Thanks for sharing.

There is no need for two forms of the same God to be in us. Only Mormons think there are three separate Gods. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Orthodox Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are one in every way. Not 3 different Gods.

How many “gods” do members of the LDS church really believe in with eternal progression and humans becoming “godS”.

 

[KathleenGee]

Interesting question and how you presented it, Gazelam.

Yes, I would first respond in that we have only One God, but 3 Persons – but not in the context of how we understand human beings.

God is mystery to us, always will be, but to rejoice in the fact that He has called us to be adopted sons and daughters through Baptism. This sacrament incorporates us into the Mystical Body of Christ through the Holy Spirit and Heavenly Father.

Our communion with the Lord is achieved in this life through the reception of the Word of God and Holy Communion where the life of Christ enters us in the Holy Spirit and makes us worthy before the Heavenly Father.

To be Catholic, the first desire is to be in communion with Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in other words, to be in communion with the Holy Spirit, Three in One, no divisions.

 

[Robyn_p]

Jesus, as the head of the body, the Church, had to ascend to show the apostles that Heaven is our true home, that we are made for ultimate communion with God, not an earthly military conquest. It was to get their minds off of the military type of Messiah they were expecting that He ascended. (There’s other reasons too. But this is just one)

That’s why it was necessary for Him to leave before he could send the Holy Spirit upon them at Pentecost. It’s not like there’s some magnetic field that makes it impossible for the Holy Spirit to be where Jesus is. But rather, the apostles wouldn’t be open to the Holy Spirits power and grace if Jesus just stayed how He was before the crucifixion and resurrection. Like I said, they were expecting a royal, earthly messiah, and as long as He stayed visibly with them, they were going to keep expecting that.

Once He left their sight, then their previous conceptions were gone, and THEN the Holy Spirit could work with them. (He had to do that with me too )

But also He had already promised two chapters earlier in John 14:18 that he WOULD NOT leave the Apostles desolate, that He would come to them in a way the world wouldn’t see. And in Matthew 28:20 He promises to be with the Church always.

PS you ask if we believe the Holy Spirit goes away during the Mass. On the contrary, if you’ve ever been to a Catholic Mass, you will hear the priest pray these words: “Lord, we ask that you send your Spirit upon these gifts that are brought to you for consecration, that they may become the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, at whose command we celebrate these sacred mysteries” It’s by the power of the Holy Spirit, working in and through the priest, that the bread and wine can become what they do. No conflict.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus is the Word Made Flesh.

One of the difficulties of understanding Catholicism is that we must look at the full deposit of faith, – ours a communion --, and so we do not look exclusively at St. Augustine.

The Incarnation is the Word Made Flesh when Mary said ‘Yes’ to God to become the mother of His Son. Likewise, Mary is exalted and venerated among all women for all generations. She brings the feminine side into the understanding of God by being Christ’s mother and giving Him her flesh and blood…through the Holy Spirit. Mary links us to the Holy Trinity.

When we receive the Sacraments, we enter into the communion of the Holy Trinity, our greatest goal that is initially entered into in this life, and perfected in the next when we can see God and be in communion with Him and all the saints.

Ours is mystical, transcendent.