Joysong:
Hello, Palmas,
Are these things truly happening, like you mentioned? Raisin bread? Budweiser? Plastic buckets?
It sometimes happens that those who dissent are simply not understanding sufficiently the reasons for change. Maybe if you used some true examples that were not overstated, we might be able to p(name removed by moderator)oint the problems — and maybe not.
If, after reading the book of documents of VII, you still have questions, maybe you would have a right to complain. But if you have not tried to gain understanding through self-education, then I have a problem with listening to gripes.
One of the most serious consequences of the ancient Israelites’ failure to reach the promised land, was virtually caused by their grumbling and complaining. It deeply offended God, as you may well know.
Carole
Hi Carole, to answer your questions simply, yes. I have read quite a few, not all, but then no one probably has, documents that came out of Vatican II
. Unfortunately, as you
WELL KNOW most of the changes that were thriust upon the faithful did not come in decrees from that council. No it was instead the desire for change on the part of certain groups within the Church that took the freedom to experiment in the way that Vatican II encouraged. The council itself actually gets a pass on this one Carole.
The examples that I gave did in facr happen. I was at the ones with the plastic bucket, they were in South Texas, in if I remember correctly 1991 or 1992. We had a charming group of Sisters, I use the term loosely, who ran things in our area due to a shortage of Priests, another of the fruits of Vatican II I guess. The rationale behind the bucket was that Jesus was poor, and worked with the poor and the Poor would not have had access to Chalices and that if Christ was walking the earth today he would use the simplest containers possible, for example, plastic cups, buckets and plates
Raisin bread was confected by a group of school children during CCIC, I believe that is what it is called these days, Catechism, as I recall it, in Milwaukee Wisconsin in 2002. Their instructor allegedly said that all of Gods gifts should and could be used in the Celebration of the Mass. Why limit the host to plain flour and water? This has happened in many locations, and no not just raisin bread, but all different types of bread.
Tampering with the matter for the host is a serious and ongoing problem, would you not agree Carole? After all the Church has specific guidelines on what can and cannot be used to make the bread. But then again, maybe that too will be changed. Plain unleavened bread can be quite tasteless you know and even deadly to some people The beer was used rather extensively in masses in Europe throughout the 80’s and 90’s, and in various “Polka Masses” here in the U.S. Of course, they might not be doing it anymore, but rest assured they did. And I plead guilty to using the brand name Budweiser. I don’t know for a fact if Bud was used or not :crying: But if you’re going to use beer I say Bud is the way to go!!!
As far as everyone being a saint, well, just look around. Ten people at confession, 1,000 people receive communion. We must be in the company of Saints. But then again most saints did confess and regularly too I might add, so maybe we’re not all saints. But tell you what, I won’t tell anybody if you don"t. Wouldn’t want to show a lack of charity by pointing out the truth would we?
I’m not an expert in the Israelites passage to the promised land, but as I recall,. they began to worship Idols at some point. Maybe that had more to do with their problems then their grumbling. Who knows. As I recall the first commandment had something to do with not worshiping other Gods or something like that. You know, something old that probably needed changing and modernization. After all, their needs were probably not being met out there in the desert. And experimentation is all right, isn’t it Carole? Oh and by the way, they did not fail to reach the Promised Land. Moses did not make it there, but the Israelites did. If they didn’t make it there, there is a good posssibility that the entire Christian faith never would have been born, As you may or may not know, Christ Jesus, Mary and Joseph were all Jews and Christ was born in Bethlehem, which is in Israel, which is the Promised Land. Had the Israelites not reached it, Christ would not have been born there.
Oh and Carole your condescending tone, is as so many have used the words on this forum, lacking in Charity.
