Mass with spouse who contracepts

[einna]

How can you assume all these things? In fact, I have been opposed to my wife using birth control for as long as I have been Catholic. I have been gentle about it, but the topic comes up every week now that she is receiving communion, whether we talk about it or not. Before, when she was not receiving communion, it was much easier to let the weeks pass without talking about it. It is much harder now.

Do you really think your marriage will last if you continue to bring this up for years to come. As I have said in early post, after trying very hard with NFP, much prayer, and speaking to a priest, I chose to use artificial insemination to have my first child. Birth control is not infallible dogma of the church and because going to a doctor for health problems is not against the church, I went to the doctor for a physical problem.

All I know is that if you do not let this go and give it up to God you might just end your marriage, Didn’t you vow to be there or worse? You can state how you clearly feel, but to repeat it every week is badgering not teaching.

 

[Elizabeth502]

after trying very hard with NFP, much prayer, and speaking to a priest, I chose to use artificial insemination to have my first child. Birth control is not infallible dogma of the church.

None of the following is a “judgment” on you, your soul, your spirituality, etc. It is merely a correction of the bolded part of your quote, above, which is objectively in error.

Bro.,You have a wonderful gift for explaining things.

Anything in the CCC that comes from scripture, morals or dogma is infallible. Anything that is law, discipline, commentary, or pastoral can change. It is not infallible.

JReducation:

The CCC is a Megisterial Document that containes infallible doctrines and morals, as well as canons and other disciplinary laws that are binding on all Catholics. No part of the Catechism is up to debate. As Pope Benedict has said, the more you dissent with the Catechism the further you get from communion with the Church. That’s a thought worth pondering.

Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil.

Again, I’m not commenting on your conscience or your decision or whatever Jesuits did or did not tell you. Merely commenting on that part of your post, which is incorrect. Everything in the Catechism, regarding faith and morals, is infallible. It proceeds from the teaching authority of the Magisterium (in this case, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith). You are telling the OP, as well as others here, that “birth control is not an infallible dogma.” It’s an infallible teaching.

I’m sure I will hear about how “uncharitable” I am for mere correction on the facts. However, this is a public forum, and many potential converts and reverts lurk here, and thus I feel compelled to issue a correction. What a particular priest says, including a vowed priest, is not dogmatic unless he is referring to dogmatic teachings in his statements.

 

[einna]

I’m sure I will hear about how “uncharitable” I am for mere correction on the facts. However, this is a public forum, and many potential converts and reverts lurk here, and thus I feel compelled to issue a correction. What a particular priest says, including a vowed priest, is not dogmatic unless he is referring to dogmatic teachings in his statements.

Well I am sorry your wrong Elizabeth in that I don’t see your statements as “uncharitable” and I am sorry you are choosing to read me the way you do, but that is your choice. I have always seen birth control, for my self I speak of artificial insemination, as something a teaching that could possibly be altered someday; however, unlikely; that you for clarifying that.

I want to state again I do not promote birth control, but I will not be sorry for having my son the way I did. I actually don’t know anyone that has not used birth control, even the ones going to Mass daily, reading the Bible regularly, having priest over to dinner. I am not saving they are right in what they are doing, but the vast majority of people in this county are doing it and many leaving the Church on this stance. Every time I get on this site, I reevaluate staying in the Church, especially when people want to convince me my son was conceived in sin and until I repent I will not be saved. I was taught God is much bigger and loving than that and He knows I turned to Him and what was in my heart.

 

[Xantippe]

“Every time I get on this site, I reevaluate staying in the Church, especially when people want to convince me my son was conceived in sin and until I repent I will not be saved. I was taught God is much bigger and loving than that and He knows I turned to Him and what was in my heart.”

Lots of people (including posters here) were literally conceived in sin–there’s nothing particularly unusual about that.

Do you think that you don’t need to repent for anything? Your attitude reminds me of a husband who says, “I don’t need to wipe my feet when I come in the house, my wife will forgive me. I don’t need to say thank you when my wife brings me coffee–she’ll forgive me. I don’t need to do anything for my wife for her birthday or Christmas or Mother’s Day–she’ll forgive me. I don’t need to help put the kids to bed–she’ll forgive me. I don’t need to put my Coke can in the recycling bin–she’ll forgive me.”

Yes, a good wife is capable of forgiving her husband any number of small things, but it isn’t loving to expect that, as a matter of course. We can’t ignore what our spouse is asking of us long term and not expect to pay the price, in terms of love and intimacy.

 

[EasterJoy]

First of all I know nothing. I think and believe certain things, I do not know anything. I almost never say anything about the “will of God”, but I think God is capable of anything and everything, but I don’t know to what extent He intervenes in life and I would never venture to guess. There are “miracles” happening on a daily basis, there is also horrible things happening everyday. To what extent we really have control over are lives I have no idea. We have choices and sometime things turn out the way we want and sometimes they don’t.

Let you tell me a bit about where I am coming from. At the Catholic high school I attended we had to read a book titled “The Great Divorce” by T. S. Elliot for Theology class. The premise of the book was that people on earth (Hell) could get on a bus and travel to another place (purgatory) where they were each met by an “angel” who tried to help them see that they had to give up there controlling attitudes, material things, family, religion, etc. and make everything about God above all else, just God, not the rules of any religion. If they did they could move on to heaven, if not, they had to go back to Hell.

Now how many people would argue and fight if they were to find out that something like that, defending the Church to the end. Yes I know that most of you will say that is simply not possible because the Church cannot be wrong about dogma, but again with God anything is possible. How many people could give up their Catholic faith and live among non-Christians to be saved if that is what God asked of us? I would bet some of you you simply could not do it, arguing that was not what we learned on earth.

The school I went to was not a new liberal Catholic school. It is over 100 years old and the bishop over sees what is taught. Now they never taught us that the Church was wrong, but they did tell us that with God all things are possible and at what lengths were we willing to go to if God asks? No one, no one, has a true full understand of God not even the Church.

Speaking of C.S. Lewis, have you ever read Surprised by Joy? For someone who says she knows nothing, you have a lot of opinions. How you can read any amount of C.S. Lewis and come out on the other side trying to defend your view of what the Catholic Church teaches and why is beyond me. You cannot possibly be a big C.S. Lewis fan, though, not if you think you can make a meaningful remark about something when you can only guess at the facts about it.

from chapter 9, “The Great Knock,” in Surprised by Joy by C. S. Lewis:

We shook hands, and though his grip was like iron pincers it was not lingering. A few minutes later we were walking away from the station.

“You are now,” said Kirk, “proceeding along the principal artery between Great and Little Bookham.”

I stole a glance at him. Was this geographical exordium a heavy joke? Or was he trying to conceal his emotions? His face, however, showed only an inflexible gravity. I began to “make conversation” in the deplorable manner which I had acquired at those evening parties and indeed found increasingly necessary to use with my father. I said I was surprised at the “scenery” of Surrey; it was much “wilder” that I had expected.

“Stop!” shouted Kirk with a suddenness that made me jump. “What do you mean by wildness and what grounds had you for not expecting it?”

I replied I don’t know what, still “making conversation.” As answer after answer was torn to shreds it at last dawned on me that he really wanted to know. He was not making conversation, nor joking, nor snubbing me; he wanted to know. I was stung into attempting a real answer. A few passes sufficed to show that I had no clear and distinct idea corresponding to the word “wildness,” and that, in so far as I had any idea at all, “wildness” was a singularly inept word. “Do you not see, then,” concluded the Great Knock, “that your remark was meaningless?” I prepared to sulk a little, assuming that the subject would now be dropped. Never was I more mistaken in my life. Having analyzed my terms, Kirk was proceeding to deal with my proposition as a whole. On what had I based (but he pronounced it baized) my expectations about the Flora and Geology of Surrey? Was it maps, or photographs, or books? I could produce none. It had, heaven help me, never occurred to me that what I called my thoughts needed to be “baized” on anything. Kirk once more drew a conclusion–without the slightest sign of emotion, but equally without the slightest concession to what I thought good manners: “Do you now see, then, that you had no right to have any opinion whatever on the subject?”

By this time our acquaintance had lasted about three and a half minutes; but the tone set by this first conversation was preserved without a single break during all the years I spent at Bookham.

Actually, read The Screwtape Letters. It is short, extremely clever, and will give you a much better appreciation concerning where a mind can and cannot discriminate. You seem to think that because there are instances where intellect cannot know that there is nowhere that intellect can know. C.S. Lewis* never* taught you that.

 

[EasterJoy]

…I want to state again I do not promote birth control, but I will not be sorry for having my son the way I did. I actually don’t know anyone that has not used birth control, even the ones going to Mass daily, reading the Bible regularly, having priest over to dinner. I am not saving they are right in what they are doing, but the vast majority of people in this county are doing it and many leaving the Church on this stance. Every time I get on this site, I reevaluate staying in the Church, especially when people want to convince me my son was conceived in sin and until I repent I will not be saved. I was taught God is much bigger and loving than that and He knows I turned to Him and what was in my heart.

Did the birth of Solomon prove that David was right in having Uriah the Hittite killed? Did the Lord regret that Solomon was born or did God consider him a mistake? Just so the blessing of your son proves nothing about the morality of the acts that lead to his conception.

As for the people leaving the Church over hard teachings, the Lord predicted this when he preached the parable of the seeds. Therefore, you cannot know that the Gospel being preached is wrong because there are people leaving the Church over how hard it is. The truth is, if everyone likes what you are saying, Jesus had this to say: “Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man. Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way…Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way.” Luke 6:22-23,26 It would seem that a bishop who is praised by all both outside the Church and in it had better watch to see if he has not stopped preaching the Gospel!

 

[Elizabeth502]

You seem to think that because there are instances where intellect cannot know that there is nowhere that intellect can know.

True. We know what is Revealed. It is the Church’s job to confirm for us what is authentically revealed. It is wrong for any of us to question whether the Holy Spirit indeed speaks through the Church, but rather Revelation is some arbitrary category invented by men with no divine authority behind it.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

How can you assume all these things? In fact, I have been opposed to my wife using birth control for as long as I have been Catholic. I have been gentle about it, but the topic comes up every week now that she is receiving communion, whether we talk about it or not. Before, when she was not receiving communion, it was much easier to let the weeks pass without talking about it. It is much harder now.

Do you really think your marriage will last if you continue to bring this up for years to come. As I have said in early post, after trying very hard with NFP, much prayer, and speaking to a priest, I chose to use artificial insemination to have my first child. Birth control is not infallible dogma of the church and because going to a doctor for health problems is not against the church, I went to the doctor for a physical problem.

All I know is that if you do not let this go and give it up to God you might just end your marriage, Didn’t you vow to be there or worse? You can state how you clearly feel, but to repeat it every week is badgering not teaching.

I want to emphasize that I have not brought this topic up on a weekly basis. But every time we pray the Our Father together I think of it (“Thy will be done…”). Every time we go to Mass I think of it. It is there, a huge elephant in the room any time we invite God into our lives together.

 

[einna]

Did the birth of Solomon prove that David was right in having Uriah the Hittite killed? Did the Lord regret that Solomon was born or did God consider him a mistake? Just so the blessing of your son proves nothing about the morality of the acts that lead to his conception.

As for the people leaving the Church over hard teachings, the Lord predicted this when he preached the parable of the seeds. Therefore, you cannot know that the Gospel being preached is wrong because there are people leaving the Church over how hard it is. The truth is, if everyone likes what you are saying, Jesus had this to say: “Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man. Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way…Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way.” Luke 6:22-23,26 It would seem that a bishop who is praised by all both outside the Church and in it had better watch to see if he has not stopped preaching the Gospel!

I never said the Gospel was wrong in any way. I cannot speak for those who left the Church as I have not left, yet. I do not remember the Gospel addressing artificial insemination used for a medical issue, but I am sure someone will give a quote they feel fit, although it won’t change my mind, so I should probably no respond again. I am at peace with my decision and if one of the many priests I know feel that because that I do not belong in the Catholic church I will respect that, but as of yet none of them have.

 

[Lasting_faith]

You are misinformed about the early Church and about the Eucharist. You are reading the Bible without an understanding of it. And basing your theology off of that.

You know, I was bullied in school, and by people like you. Your comment was rude, harsh and absolutely without any foundation. We can understand The Bible in only one way. My friend, you went to far, way too far. You have no right to address me as you have done, not on a web-site, not in the “real” life. I am as Catholic as the Pope is. I obey The Church. And I am not understanding The Bible wrong, nor basing my theology on incorrect understanding and information. You need to apologize your harsh and rude writings.

I have notized, and I know this have nothing to do with this thread what so ever but this one did derail on page two, that I am not welcomed by many members here. This is a Catholic web-site. I know the rules. I have not done anything that is against the rules. Could anyone please tell me what I have done wrong?

 

[einna]

:

You know, I was bullied in school, and by people like you. Your comment was rude, harsh and absolutely without any foundation. We can understand The Bible in only one way. My friend, you went to far, way too far. You have no right to address me as you have done, not on a web-site, not in the “real” life. I am as Catholic as the Pope is. I obey The Church. And I am not understanding The Bible wrong, nor basing my theology on incorrect understanding and information. You need to apologize your harsh and rude writings.

I have notized, and I know this have nothing to do with this thread what so ever but this one did derail on page two, that I am not welcomed by many members here. This is a Catholic web-site. I know the rules. I have not done anything that is against the rules. Could anyone please tell me what I have done wrong?

:

 

[yellow8yellowM]

You know, I was bullied in school, and by people like you. Your comment was rude, harsh and absolutely without any foundation. We can understand The Bible in only one way. My friend, you went to far, way too far. You have no right to address me as you have done, not on a web-site, not in the “real” life. I am as Catholic as the Pope is. I obey The Church. And I am not understanding The Bible wrong, nor basing my theology on incorrect understanding and information. You need to apologize your harsh and rude writings.

I have notized, and I know this have nothing to do with this thread what so ever but this one did derail on page two, that I am not welcomed by many members here. This is a Catholic web-site. I know the rules. I have not done anything that is against the rules. Could anyone please tell me what I have done wrong?

Lasting Faith, I hope and pray that you will continue to search for the truth. I have not read ever one of your posts on this thread (most of this thread is off topic as is this one), but from what I have read Hoosier Daddy is correct in saying that you are misinformed.

You are welcome here on this thread, but remember, it says you are Roman Catholic in your signature. When you come on here and say things that are clearly against Church teaching, it is scandalous to a degree. You may be leading sheep away from the flock.

 

[Tigg]

I want to state again I do not promote birth control, but I will not be sorry for having my son the way I did. I actually don’t know anyone that has not used birth control, even the ones going to Mass daily, reading the Bible regularly, having priest over to dinner. I am not saving they are right in what they are doing, but the vast majority of people in this county are doing it and many leaving the Church on this stance. Every time I get on this site, I reevaluate staying in the Church, especially when people want to convince me my son was conceived in sin and until I repent I will not be saved. I was taught God is much bigger and loving than that and He knows I turned to Him and what was in my heart.

You must be absolutely certain that your choices are yours alone and not subtly swayed by erroneous public opinion. Those others as well, will be standing absolutely alone without benefit of any support from the majority when the Lord judges individual hearts. I do not see anyone trying to convince you that you have sinned, as much as giving you true instruction which is a matter of charity – that you may come into the fullness of truth and grow in your faith which is the highest blessing. I sometimes think the freedom God has given us is a frightening thing because we have the will to choose wrongly. I daily pray to be consecrated in truth and I submit my opinion, my will and my understanding to the Infinite for correction - otherwise how easy for me to deceive myself. May you be blessed!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You know, I was bullied in school, and by people like you. Your comment was rude, harsh and absolutely without any foundation. We can understand The Bible in only one way. My friend, you went to far, way too far. You have no right to address me as you have done, not on a web-site, not in the “real” life. I am as Catholic as the Pope is. I obey The Church. And I am not understanding The Bible wrong, nor basing my theology on incorrect understanding and information. You need to apologize your harsh and rude writings.

I have notized, and I know this have nothing to do with this thread what so ever but this one did derail on page two, that I am not welcomed by many members here. This is a Catholic web-site. I know the rules. I have not done anything that is against the rules. Could anyone please tell me what I have done wrong?

Your understanding of theology is flawed. I only posted that it was flawed and that it is not in line with Catholic teaching. You can refute that with facts or you can leave the discussion. What you cannot do is state flawed theology on a Catholic site and not expect to be refuted. I have not personally attacked you. I am sorry if you feel that you were “bullied” Bullied is a serious accusation that is often misused today. Correcting a flawed understanding is not bulliing, in fact it is what we are called to do by the Lord himself. I hope you can continue in the discussion and I hope you can provide some sort of sources for your opinions on the Bible and Catholic teaching and the early Church and the Eucharist. You stated the Bible did not address the issue. It does directly. Then instead of saying, “oops sorry, it would appear the Bible does address it” you argued that the Early Church and fathers in the Bible were not priests and had no “Christian” identity or infrastructure. That is wrong and your argument leads to the conclusion that Peter (The Pope himself) did not confect the Eucharist. Paul was writing to Christian communities.

Finally, I noticed that your profile says you live in Europe. You have a HUGE advantage that I am jealous of. Within a Day or Two of you are thousands of sites, art, history, and Church history than I will ever have access to. I have been to Italy and a few other areas, but you live surrounded by the tools and relics of our faith and our God. I encourage you to use this blessing to further immerse yourself into the faith and into God. The Bible, the CCC are there for us. We need to use them as well. Please, understand that the Church has millions of people and 2000 years of history and of Course the Holy Spirit. It has the power to bind and loose. It has the keys. All of this should be taken in with awe an humility and the thought that just maybe, just maybe, She knows a little more than us in an unbiased way.
I encourage you to report any bullying you see. I am confident that my comments will stand up to moderation. If they do not, then I apologize and I misunderstood the purpose of this site.

 

[einna]

Yes, I know this through revelation and the Church.

Yes, my mind is closed to clouded interpretations.

You gave your opinion which is false and is not what the Church teaches.
I am not God like. I strive to be Christ like. You should too. And Christ instituted his Church that you seem to be against.

That was not your point. Not at all. And it does not apply to the situation at hand. How is one to find God in sin? You cannot.
That is not what the Jesuits or Ignatius teaches and it does not apply? Are you schooled in Jesuit theology? Because you are grossly misrepresenting them./QUOTes

You find God in the sinner not the sin! It absolutely applies to this situation and yes the Jesuits do teach to find God in everything. Do you now think because someone sins God is no longer with them. This wife is still a child of God. You obviously are not school in their teachings.

My son, who you think was born out of sin has a Catholic deacon as his Godfather and was baptized by a Catholic priest. It must be nice to "know’ so much, but yes you do come across in a very bully like tone and I don’t think that word is being over. I hardly doubt the way you come across would lead anyone into the Catholic church, in fact, you have the same harsh tone as many other people I know that are harsh against the Catholic church. Have you never heard that if you have a thousand priest interpreting the Gospel you will have a thousand different interpretation, but I forgot you are the one the is right.

 

[einna]

Your understanding of theology is flawed. I only posted that it was flawed and that it is not in line with Catholic teaching. You can refute that with facts or you can leave the discussion. What you cannot do is state flawed theology on a Catholic site and not expect to be refuted. I have not personally attacked you. I am sorry if you feel that you were “bullied” Bullied is a serious accusation that is often misused today. Correcting a flawed understanding is not bulliing, in fact it is what we are called to do by the Lord himself. I hope you can continue in the discussion and I hope you can provide some sort of sources for your opinions on the Bible and Catholic teaching and the early Church and the Eucharist. You stated the Bible did not address the issue. It does directly. Then instead of saying, “oops sorry, it would appear the Bible does address it” you argued that the Early Church and fathers in the Bible were not priests and had no “Christian” identity or infrastructure. That is wrong and your argument leads to the conclusion that Peter (The Pope himself) did not confect the Eucharist. Paul was writing to Christian communities.

Finally, I noticed that your profile says you live in Europe. You have a HUGE advantage that I am jealous of. Within a Day or Two of you are thousands of sites, art, history, and Church history than I will ever have access to. I have been to Italy and a few other areas, but you live surrounded by the tools and relics of our faith and our God. I encourage you to use this blessing to further immerse yourself into the faith and into God. The Bible, the CCC are there for us. We need to use them as well. Please, understand that the Church has millions of people and 2000 years of history and of Course the Holy Spirit. It has the power to bind and loose. It has the keys. All of this should be taken in with awe an humility and the thought that just maybe, just maybe, She knows a little more than us in an unbiased way.
I encourage you to report any bullying you see. I am confident that my comments will stand up to moderation. If they do not, then I apologize and I misunderstood the purpose of this site.

First, I think it is up to the moderator to tell him he should leave the discussion, not you. Secondly I am disturbed that you have not been sited for bullying, which just shows me how this site works and who they site. I went through 12 years of Catholic school. My siblings, who are in their sixties, went through Catholic school and all my children are all in Catholic school and the only people I know who preach their faith like you do are hard core protestants. We all grew up in different cities across the country in different church, so I would have to believe that there are many Churches and priest who do not present the faith as you do. I was raised in the tone of Pope Francis where the love of God was the focus of the Church and that He sent His son to save us because he loved us so much. We never were taught that the Church knows "exactly’ what God will do with us when we die and how it will all turn out. Sound like the Church knows step by step what will happen and that you know exactly what God thinks and what He will do.

Do you know that in my case that if I do not repent for the one thing I do not believe is a sin, even through I know the Church stance, that I will not be saved? Or do you acknowledge that it maybe possible that God may have mercy on me with His overwhelming love. I am not saying I think He will, I have no idea, and I know I will have to face that day.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hoosier Daddy;11191435:

Yes, I know this through revelation and the Church.

Yes, my mind is closed to clouded interpretations.

You gave your opinion which is false and is not what the Church teaches.
I am not God like. I strive to be Christ like. You should too. And Christ instituted his Church that you seem to be against.

That was not your point. Not at all. And it does not apply to the situation at hand. How is one to find God in sin? You cannot.
That is not what the Jesuits or Ignatius teaches and it does not apply? Are you schooled in Jesuit theology? Because you are grossly misrepresenting them.[/QUOTes

You find God in the sinner not the sin! It absolutely applies to this situation and yes the Jesuits do teach to find God in everything. Do you now think because someone sins God is no longer with them. This wife is still a child of God. You obviously are not school in their teachings.

My son, who you think was born out of sin has a Catholic deacon as his Godfather and was baptized by a Catholic priest. It must be nice to "know’ so much, but yes you do come across in a very bully like tone and I don’t think that word is being over. I hardly doubt the way you come across would lead anyone into the Catholic church, in fact, you have the same harsh tone as many other people I know that are harsh against the Catholic church. Have you never heard that if you have a thousand priest interpreting the Gospel you will have a thousand different interpretation, but I forgot you are the one the is right.

And you come across as not informed on the Church and Her teachings or outright rejecting them.

Honestly Eienna, I couldn’t care less who has who for a Godfather or who got bad guidance from a priest, or who works in a Catholic school. Frankly, you have the Teaching of the Church and you want to substitute that for the teaching of men who tell you only what you want to hear. I have watched you on these very boards only take from something what you want to, what you twist into your own view and substitute that for the Mind of the Church and ultimately to the Mind of God. Regaurdless of what you have been told. Or what order a priest belongs to, you have had access to and been told what the Church teaches. You refuse to hear it. There is nothing more to discuss.

You may not like my delivery, but (pardon my bluntness) tough cookies!
My job as a Christian is to preach the Gospel. My delivery may not be to your liking and it may not be effective with each and every person. But rest assured my dear, it spreads the Gospel and the Faith we share a Children of the Risen Lord. You may preach the Gospel in a different way, good luck to you. But your way of flowers and butterflies and feelings has little to do with the way logical oriented people see theOLOGY (Or logic).

And this is ultimately the fault of your theology and moral relativism in general. You lack any authority at all to preach to me about my delivery, because you reject the Authority of the Church Herself. To what authority do you appeal if all I have to do is say that I am at peace with my stance, as you have done. I need offer no proof, just feelings. It is a house of cards that will fall. So I choose to build my house on the Rock of the Church, not the sand of my feelings.

[/quote]

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I was raised in the tone of Pope Francis where the love of God was the focus of the Church and that He sent His son to save us because he loved us so much…

When you say things such as this it implies that those (like me) who do not agree with your personal distortion of the Church do not believe in a God of love.
It is called being passive aggressive.

You have Church teaching and if you wish to discuss what the Church teaches I would be happy to continue this conversation. If this is going to keep on devolving into personal attacks and accusations I have no interest in continuing.

 

[einna]

Speaking of C.S. Lewis, have you ever read Surprised by Joy? For someone who says she knows nothing, you have a lot of opinions. How you can read any amount of C.S. Lewis and come out on the other side trying to defend your view of what the Catholic Church teaches and why is beyond me. You cannot possibly be a big C.S. Lewis fan, though, not if you think you can make a meaningful remark about something when you can only guess at the facts about it.

Actually, read The Screwtape Letters. It is short, extremely clever, and will give you a much better appreciation concerning where a mind can and cannot discriminate. You seem to think that because there are instances where intellect cannot know that there is nowhere that intellect can know. C.S. Lewis* never* taught you that.

Excuse me, yes I have opinions and I have never defended my view of the what the Catholic Church teaches. I said I went against the Catholic Church, I never said they were wrong. Please get that right! I can easily go into confession and go through the motions and say I am sorry, but will know my hear and I would be committing another sin. I cannot feel what I just do not feel and people judging me isn’t going to change that, just like a Jew could never convert you.

On the book, I was not backing this idea or believe that it will be anything like that, I simply posed a question, something they do on this site all the time. I have never tried to say the Church should change and I do not claim to know nearly as much as others here, I stated how our faith was presented to us in my Catholic school. I am sorry you cannot seem to deal with the fact that so many Catholics are as devote as you are, but I did not say I was right…

 

[einna]

When you say things such as this it implies that those (like me) who do not agree with your personal distortion of the Church do not believe in a God of love.
It is called being passive aggressive.

You have Church teaching and if you wish to discuss what the Church teaches I would be happy to continue this conversation. If this is going to keep on devolving into personal attacks and accusations I have no interest in continuing.

As the writer I know what I meant. If you want to be negative and unfair in how you read it, that is your choice, but you are trying very hard to make others out as bad guys. You need to hear you are right about everything all the time so you are right, but is very wrong to twist things around and make others look bad. You will not get another response from me.