Masses celebrated properly

[hartleymartin]

I’ve read far and wide of the number of people who dismiss the Ordinary Form of the mass in favour of the Extra-Ordinary Form (Missal of 1962).

Now I just want to make a few opinions clear, and I believe to have obtained a reasonably balanced view.

1.) It isn’t the form of the mass which is problematic - it is the abuse of liturgy by poorly-trained priests or other clergy who decided that they would be “innovative” or “creative” with public worship.

2.) Latin isn’t a “sacramental” it is the official language of the Latin church. Don’t elevate it beyond it’s proper place in the liturgy. That said, I do like praying in Latin, but it isn’t a new level of holiness.

3.) When the Ordinary Form of the Mass is celebrated correctly, it is just as reverent as any mass celebrated according to any other edition of the missal.

4.) You can pray the Ordinary Form in Latin - In fact, the ordinary language of the Latin church is still Latin (except that readings and homily are to be said in the vernacular), with an option to pray the mass in the vernacular using an official translation. TRY IT!

5.) Don’t rubbish an entire church because of a few poor clergy.

6.) Be wary of committing a sin of spiritual pride, of believing yourself to be better or more holy than other people because you follow a particular form of the mass or piety.

7.) Don’t make Vatican II the scape-goat of all the problems that have existed in the church since the 1970’s. Many things done “in the spirit of Vatican II” went directly against the Vatican documentation and many people never even read Vatican II documents, passing off their own innovations as official Vatican II stuff.

8.) Many people today do things incorrect or rather badly because they were badly taught. A poor student is not to blame for having been taught by a poor teacher.

9.) Remember that we are all sinners in need of God’s grace and mercy.

10.) Remember that you will fail on your own strength, but with a devotion to God, relying on His strength, you can succeed.

Brothers and sisters, may the Grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ be with you all!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Excellent and Brilliant points.

Sunday I attended a TLM, as a convert it is new to me and following and properly participating is a major challenge. It occurred to me during the Mass wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could do this Mass in exactly this way using the English side of the missal, because you are right Latin isn’t a sacramental, Latin doesn’t make the Mass more Holy. To do that most beautiful liturgy of the TLM and at the same time understand what is being said and fully participate in it - well, that would be wonderful.

Yes, I understand that cannot be. But it was just a thought in passing.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I’ve read far and wide of the number of people who dismiss the Ordinary Form of the mass in favour of the Extra-Ordinary Form (Missal of 1962).

Now I just want to make a few opinions clear, and I believe to have obtained a reasonably balanced view.

1.) It isn’t the form of the mass which is problematic - it is the abuse of liturgy by poorly-trained priests or other clergy who decided that they would be “innovative” or “creative” with public worship.

2.) Latin isn’t a “sacramental” it is the official language of the Latin church. Don’t elevate it beyond it’s proper place in the liturgy. That said, I do like praying in Latin, but it isn’t a new level of holiness.

3.) When the Ordinary Form of the Mass is celebrated correctly, it is just as reverent as any mass celebrated according to any other edition of the missal.

4.) You can pray the Ordinary Form in Latin - In fact, the ordinary language of the Latin church is still Latin (except that readings and homily are to be said in the vernacular), with an option to pray the mass in the vernacular using an official translation. TRY IT!

5.) Don’t rubbish an entire church because of a few poor clergy.

6.) Be wary of committing a sin of spiritual pride, of believing yourself to be better or more holy than other people because you follow a particular form of the mass or piety.

7.) Don’t make Vatican II the scape-goat of all the problems that have existed in the church since the 1970’s. Many things done “in the spirit of Vatican II” went directly against the Vatican documentation and many people never even read Vatican II documents, passing off their own innovations as official Vatican II stuff.

8.) Many people today do things incorrect or rather badly because they were badly taught. A poor student is not to blame for having been taught by a poor teacher.

9.) Remember that we are all sinners in need of God’s grace and mercy.

10.) Remember that you will fail on your own strength, but with a devotion to God, relying on His strength, you can succeed.

Brothers and sisters, may the Grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ be with you all!

Beautifully said!! :clapping:

Thank you!

 

[feargalmac]

Here’s an excellent article on the subject.

What if?

It says all I wanted to say.

 

[ProVobis]

Sunday I attended a TLM, as a convert it is new to me and following and properly participating is a major challenge. It occurred to me during the Mass wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could do this Mass in exactly this way using the English side of the missal

Since most of the EF is supposed to be said quietly, I don’t see where English or any other vernacular would make much of a difference. You still need to know the rubrics (bowing, signs of cross, kissing the altar, genuflecting, reciting at the epistle side, gospel side) which all are forms of praying in themselves and help focus on the bigger picture of praying the Mass.

The Latin transcends national borders and allows you to truly participate in a worship with Catholics of other languages. Working to understand it because it is a language of the cross is a form of prayer as well.

 

[archangel04]

Excellent and Brilliant points.

Sunday I attended a TLM, as a convert it is new to me and following and properly participating is a major challenge. It occurred to me during the Mass wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could do this Mass in exactly this way using the English side of the missal, because you are right Latin isn’t a sacramental, Latin doesn’t make the Mass more Holy. To do that most beautiful liturgy of the TLM and at the same time understand what is being said and fully participate in it - well, that would be wonderful.

Yes, I understand that cannot be. But it was just a thought in passing.

That’s how I feel, or at least make the OF much closer to the EF and just do it in the vernacular language. That way the mass seem much more organic that something else.

 

[ProVobis]

That’s how I feel, or at least make the OF much closer to the EF

The Latin OF is much closer to the EF. Ever been at St. John Cantius for the Latin OF?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Since most of the EF is supposed to be said quietly, I don’t see where English or any other vernacular would make much of a difference. You still need to know the rubrics (bowing, signs of cross, kissing the altar, genuflecting, reciting at the epistle side, gospel side) which all are forms of praying in themselves and help focus on the bigger picture of praying the Mass.

The Latin transcends national borders and allows you to truly participate in a worship with Catholics of other languages. Working to understand it because it is a language of the cross is a form of prayer as well.

If nobody is supposed to hear the Mass (in the EF), then what difference does it make what language it is in?
The Church could use Klingon and it wouldn’t make much difference, IMHO- I can’t hear it so what does it matter?

The language of the cross is also Hebrew & Greek, so how come I don’t see anyone advocating the singing of of the Psalms in Hebrew?

 

[Angel_Bradford]

I’ve read far and wide of the number of people who dismiss the Ordinary Form of the mass in favour of the Extra-Ordinary Form (Missal of 1962).

Now I just want to make a few opinions clear, and I believe to have obtained a reasonably balanced view.

1.) It isn’t the form of the mass which is problematic - it is the abuse of liturgy by poorly-trained priests or other clergy who decided that they would be “innovative” or “creative” with public worship.

2.) Latin isn’t a “sacramental” it is the official language of the Latin church. Don’t elevate it beyond it’s proper place in the liturgy. That said, I do like praying in Latin, but it isn’t a new level of holiness.

3.) When the Ordinary Form of the Mass is celebrated correctly, it is just as reverent as any mass celebrated according to any other edition of the missal.

4.) You can pray the Ordinary Form in Latin - In fact, the ordinary language of the Latin church is still Latin (except that readings and homily are to be said in the vernacular), with an option to pray the mass in the vernacular using an official translation. TRY IT!

5.) Don’t rubbish an entire church because of a few poor clergy.

6.) Be wary of committing a sin of spiritual pride, of believing yourself to be better or more holy than other people because you follow a particular form of the mass or piety.

7.) Don’t make Vatican II the scape-goat of all the problems that have existed in the church since the 1970’s. Many things done “in the spirit of Vatican II” went directly against the Vatican documentation and many people never even read Vatican II documents, passing off their own innovations as official Vatican II stuff.

8.) Many people today do things incorrect or rather badly because they were badly taught. A poor student is not to blame for having been taught by a poor teacher.

9.) Remember that we are all sinners in need of God’s grace and mercy.

10.) Remember that you will fail on your own strength, but with a devotion to God, relying on His strength, you can succeed.

Brothers and sisters, may the Grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ be with you all!

 

[jonpd]

1.) It isn’t the form of the mass which is problematic - it is the abuse of liturgy by poorly-trained priests or other clergy who decided that they would be “innovative” or “creative” with public worship.

I agree that there are many abuses but there are a couple of aspects of the OF which are problematic in and of themselves. The replacement of the altar with a table with the priest standing behind the table facing the people, and the concurrent removal of the tabernacle in many churches from the center of the altar and placement off to the side, or even taken out of the sanctuary completely. These changes have replaced the focus of the priest + people all facing the same way toward Jesus in the tabernacle, with a community gathered around a table with Jesus symbolically off to the side out of the picture, so that the focus is now on the priest and we now form a closed circle. In other words it becomes more about us and less about God.

It is no wonder that this change coincided with a loss of reverence as seen at many OF masses, people no longer stay to pray after mass but gather in loud conversation as soon as the recessional hymn ends, many no longer genuflect, etc.

 

[testamentum]

I agree that there are many abuses but there are a couple of aspects of the OF which are problematic in and of themselves. The replacement of the altar with a table with the priest standing behind the table facing the people, and the concurrent removal of the tabernacle in many churches from the center of the altar and placement off to the side, or even taken out of the sanctuary completely.

I wonder how many Catholics realise that the first time tables were introduced with the celebrant facing the people was back in the time of Henry VIII by the heretic Bishop Cranmer and this became the norm for Anglicanism which under Cranmer adopted the false doctrine of the Priesthood of all believers championed by Luther.

 

[patrick127]

The Latin OF is much closer to the EF. Ever been at St. John Cantius for the Latin OF?

I attended a Latin OF mass at St. John Cantius for the first time about 5 months ago while traveling. It was my first exposure to a mass in Latin and I was overcome with emotion during the mass. It’s hard to describe but I felt so small and insignifigant during mass, yet at the same time I felt like there was no other place on earth I should be. It was such a great feeling and it was exactly everything I desire my Sunday mass to be and I didn’t know I what was missing it.

I am a committed Catholic but at times during the mass at my “normal parish” it is hard to maintain focus during mass. I kept count one day and there were 23 seperate people that were on the altar at one time or another. 14 extra-ordinary ministers, 4 altar servers, a priest, a decon, 2 lectors, and a choir leader during the pslam. Throw in the in-the-pew social time before mass and the exodus and eventual return of all children under 8 for the Children’ Liturgy that takes place in our Adoration Chapel and it feels like Grand Central Station.

I have been back to St. John Cantius several times during my travels and it is wonderful. The one thing I can say about every mass I have attended there is that it is 100% focused on the eucharist. I am going back next week and I so look forward to it. Confession during mass doesn’t hurt either!

 

[ProVobis]

I have been back to St. John Cantius several times during my travels and it is wonderful. The one thing I can say about every mass I have attended there is that it is 100% focused on the eucharist. I am going back next week and I so look forward to it. Confession during mass doesn’t hurt either!

It’s hard to believe the church was ready to close its doors before the 1988 Ecclesia Dei, isn’t it? Now they have a super library and hold Sunday Latin and Greek classes as well.

 

[acarlson]

I’ve read far and wide of the number of people who dismiss the Ordinary Form of the mass in favour of the Extra-Ordinary Form (Missal of 1962).

Now I just want to make a few opinions clear, and I believe to have obtained a reasonably balanced view.

1.) It isn’t the form of the mass which is problematic - it is the abuse of liturgy by poorly-trained priests or other clergy who decided that they would be “innovative” or “creative” with public worship.

2.) Latin isn’t a “sacramental” it is the official language of the Latin church. Don’t elevate it beyond it’s proper place in the liturgy. That said, I do like praying in Latin, but it isn’t a new level of holiness.

3.) When the Ordinary Form of the Mass is celebrated correctly, it is just as reverent as any mass celebrated according to any other edition of the missal.

4.) You can pray the Ordinary Form in Latin - In fact, the ordinary language of the Latin church is still Latin (except that readings and homily are to be said in the vernacular), with an option to pray the mass in the vernacular using an official translation. TRY IT!

5.) Don’t rubbish an entire church because of a few poor clergy.

6.) Be wary of committing a sin of spiritual pride, of believing yourself to be better or more holy than other people because you follow a particular form of the mass or piety.

7.) Don’t make Vatican II the scape-goat of all the problems that have existed in the church since the 1970’s. Many things done “in the spirit of Vatican II” went directly against the Vatican documentation and many people never even read Vatican II documents, passing off their own innovations as official Vatican II stuff.

8.) Many people today do things incorrect or rather badly because they were badly taught. A poor student is not to blame for having been taught by a poor teacher.

9.) Remember that we are all sinners in need of God’s grace and mercy.

10.) Remember that you will fail on your own strength, but with a devotion to God, relying on His strength, you can succeed.

Brothers and sisters, may the Grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ be with you all!

Wonderfully and beautifully said!!! I could not agree more!

 

[laszlo]

I born and was successfully educated in the pre Vatican Church. I agree with the original poster, except his statement that “Latin isn’t a “sacramental” it is the official language of the Latin church.”

During the first session of the XXI Ecumenical Council the bishops discovered that if they spoke Latin, they do not understand each other; and decided that the the official; languages of the Church are Italian, French, English, German

Otherwise yes, it is true, if the Mass in any form is recited according to the rubrics it is not only brings to us the meeting with our Lord, but also beautiful.

 

[ProVobis]

During the first session of the XXI Ecumenical Council the bishops discovered that if they spoke Latin, they do not understand each other; and decided that the the official; languages of the Church are Italian, French, English, German

Pope John XXIII wouldn’t have tolerated it. As he wrote just a few months before and in preparation for the council,

For these reasons the Apostolic See has always been at pains to preserve Latin, deeming it worthy of being used in the exercise of her teaching authority "as the splendid vesture of her heavenly doctrine and sacred laws."5 She further requires her sacred ministers to use it, for by so doing they are the better able, wherever they may be, to acquaint themselves with the mind of the Holy See on any matter, and communicate the more easily with Rome and with one another.

Thus the “knowledge and use of this language,” so intimately bound up with the Church’s life, "is important not so much on cultural or literary grounds, as for religious reasons."6 These are the words of Our Predecessor Pius XI, who conducted a scientific inquiry into this whole subject, and indicated three qualities of the Latin language which harmonize to a remarkable degree with the Church’s nature. "For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure to the end of time … of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular."7

Universal

Since "every Church must assemble round the Roman Church,"8 and since the Supreme Pontiffs have "true episcopal power, ordinary and immediate, over each and every Church and each and every Pastor, as well as over the faithful"9 of every rite and language, it seems particularly desirable that the instrument of mutual communication be uniform and universal, especially between the Apostolic See and the Churches which use the same Latin rite.

When, therefore, the Roman Pontiffs wish to instruct the Catholic world, or when the Congregations of the Roman Curia handle matters or draw up decrees which concern the whole body of the faithful, they invariably make use of Latin, for this is a maternal voice acceptable to countless nations.

Immutable

Furthermore, the Church’s language must be not only universal but also immutable. Modern languages are liable to change, and no single one of them is superior to the others in authority. Thus if the truths of the Catholic Church were entrusted to an unspecified number of them, the meaning of these truths, varied as they are, would not be manifested to everyone with sufficient clarity and precision. There would, moreover, be no language which could serve as a common and constant norm by which to gauge the exact meaning of other renderings.

But Latin is indeed such a language. It is set and unchanging. it has long since ceased to be affected by those alterations in the meaning of words which are the normal result of daily, popular use. Certain Latin words, it is true, acquired new meanings as Christian teaching developed and needed to be explained and defended, but these new meanings have long since become accepted and firmly established.

Non-vernacular

Finally, the Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.

In addition, the Latin language "can be called truly catholic."10 It has been consecrated through constant use by the Apostolic See, the mother and teacher of all Churches, and must be esteemed "a treasure … of incomparable worth."11. It is a general passport to the proper understanding of the Christian writers of antiquity and the documents of the Church’s teaching.12 It is also a most effective bond, binding the Church of today with that of the past and of the future in wonderful continuity.

 

[JVSantos]

I’ve read far and wide of the number of people who dismiss the Ordinary Form of the mass in favour of the Extra-Ordinary Form (Missal of 1962).

Now I just want to make a few opinions clear, and I believe to have obtained a reasonably balanced view.

1.) It isn’t the form of the mass which is problematic - it is the abuse of liturgy by poorly-trained priests or other clergy who decided that they would be “innovative” or “creative” with public worship.

2.) Latin isn’t a “sacramental” it is the official language of the Latin church. Don’t elevate it beyond it’s proper place in the liturgy. That said, I do like praying in Latin, but it isn’t a new level of holiness.

3.) When the Ordinary Form of the Mass is celebrated correctly, it is just as reverent as any mass celebrated according to any other edition of the missal.

4.) You can pray the Ordinary Form in Latin - In fact, the ordinary language of the Latin church is still Latin (except that readings and homily are to be said in the vernacular), with an option to pray the mass in the vernacular using an official translation. TRY IT!

5.) Don’t rubbish an entire church because of a few poor clergy.

6.) Be wary of committing a sin of spiritual pride, of believing yourself to be better or more holy than other people because you follow a particular form of the mass or piety.

7.) Don’t make Vatican II the scape-goat of all the problems that have existed in the church since the 1970’s. Many things done “in the spirit of Vatican II” went directly against the Vatican documentation and many people never even read Vatican II documents, passing off their own innovations as official Vatican II stuff.

8.) Many people today do things incorrect or rather badly because they were badly taught. A poor student is not to blame for having been taught by a poor teacher.

9.) Remember that we are all sinners in need of God’s grace and mercy.

10.) Remember that you will fail on your own strength, but with a devotion to God, relying on His strength, you can succeed.

Brothers and sisters, may the Grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ be with you all!

Properly formed and trained Priest is the key.

 

[Indyann]

I’ve read far and wide of the number of people who dismiss the Ordinary Form of the mass in favour of the Extra-Ordinary Form (Missal of 1962).

Now I just want to make a few opinions clear, and I believe to have obtained a reasonably balanced view.

1.) It isn’t the form of the mass which is problematic - it is the abuse of liturgy by poorly-trained priests or other clergy who decided that they would be “innovative” or “creative” with public worship.

2.) Latin isn’t a “sacramental” it is the official language of the Latin church. Don’t elevate it beyond it’s proper place in the liturgy. That said, I do like praying in Latin, but it isn’t a new level of holiness.

3.) When the Ordinary Form of the Mass is celebrated correctly, it is just as reverent as any mass celebrated according to any other edition of the missal.

4.) You can pray the Ordinary Form in Latin - In fact, the ordinary language of the Latin church is still Latin (except that readings and homily are to be said in the vernacular), with an option to pray the mass in the vernacular using an official translation. TRY IT!

5.) Don’t rubbish an entire church because of a few poor clergy.

6.) Be wary of committing a sin of spiritual pride, of believing yourself to be better or more holy than other people because you follow a particular form of the mass or piety.

7.) Don’t make Vatican II the scape-goat of all the problems that have existed in the church since the 1970’s. Many things done “in the spirit of Vatican II” went directly against the Vatican documentation and many people never even read Vatican II documents, passing off their own innovations as official Vatican II stuff.

8.) Many people today do things incorrect or rather badly because they were badly taught. A poor student is not to blame for having been taught by a poor teacher.

9.) Remember that we are all sinners in need of God’s grace and mercy.

10.) Remember that you will fail on your own strength, but with a devotion to God, relying on His strength, you can succeed.

Brothers and sisters, may the Grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ be with you all!

Thank you:thumbsup:

 

[JReducation]

I just wanted to clarify a common confusion. Latin is the official language of the Latin Church. It is not the official language of the Holy See. The official language of the Holy See is Italian.

There is a reason for the separation of the two. The Holy See covers all 23 Catholic Churches. Therefore, it issues official documents in the language of the particular Church. When issuing a formal document for the Latin Church, it will do so in Latin. It will not do so when the same document is for the Ukranians or Chaldeans, etc.

One of the problems that was discussed by the Oriental Catholics after Vatican II was the fact that they have been feeling as if they are guests of the Latin or Roman Catholic Church, because everything was done in Latin for centuries. If truth be told, they are just as ancient as we are.

Gradually, the Holy See moved from using Latin to conduct its daily affairs and settled for Italian, because it’s the national language of the Vatican City State. It even began to issue all of its documents and even it’s official name as Stato della Città del Vaticano.

At Vatican II, the bishops had to converse in Latin. The Oriental bishops resented this. Latin is the language of the Latin Church, not the language of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has many languages. Soon after, they started usiing simultaneous translations and the popes began to speak to the bishops in Italian.

Some posters correctly say “the language of the Latin Church is Latin”, but some say “the language of the Catholic Church is Latin.” The latter is not true, but the former is.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

It is not the official language of the Holy See. The official language of the Holy See is Italian.

A long string of Italian Popes probably made it that way.

Or was it the other way around?

I understand that most of the last papal election was conducted in Italian but one figures most Cardinals have to know some Italian to come and go in Italy, unlike the United Nations where everyone walks around with an interpreter.