Masses celebrated properly

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Thank you Mark for such a rational and dare I say intellectual response. You have renewed my trust in seeking Catholic answers here.

I really like your theory of a thawed-out liturgy causing a flood in the church. That explains so much and gives new light to the term “Reform of the reform”. I also thought about a shaken soda bottle - when you open it you’ll spray half the contents on the walls, floor, and yourself. You still have the other half though and what we make of it is yet to be seen.

Unfortunately, we lost half the soda bottle and now I’m thinking of all those baptized Catholics who don’t go to Mass anymore. I know the pill gets a lot of the blame, but during an upheaval like the Sexual Revolution, we needed the stability of our faith the most. There had to have been a better way to release the liturgical tension of four centuries and not lose so many souls.

Your theory that we didn’t copy the Protestants is not as immediately solid and I’ll take some more time to dwell on it. It seems somewhat specious to contend something our neighbours were doing for four centuries we just happened to adopt because it made sense at the time. It’s true Protestants are not locked into one historical liturgical expression, but then again, perhaps that’s why there are so many denominations of them.

I’ve read some other perspectives that state the Protestant reforms to the liturgy were for deeper reasons than convenience and familiarity. Some contend that turning the priest around was to decrease the emphasis on Sacrifice, going away from a high altar onto a table furthered that direction towards a community meal. Switching to the native tongue from a sacred was to lessen the importance of the priesthood itself.

Of course I’m sure you’re aware of these counter-arguments. If I can rely on responses like yours then I’ll be encouraged to seek out more answers here. I greatly admire your knowledge and endeavor to build up the same some day.
Nobody has addressed the fact that Latin was originally the vernacular, the early Church held services in the vernacular, and most of the Eastern Churches use the vernacular of the people, so the Protestants were hardly first to hold services in the vernacular. The Catholic Church was. There IS historical precedent for use of the vernacular. It just didn’t come about because the Protestants did it.
 
That’s an interesting point, Carolyn, thank you. I did not know that.
 
It’s just that your research is far beyond the scope of a brand new learner asking questions, so it appears that we are being had, only for the purpose of your squeezing your POV among the questions. Some of us have been on these fora long enough to discern between someone trying to learn and someone trying to influence. This is not the place to expose examples. But I have noted your expertise in exploring blogs and wonder why you can’t explore CAF using the search facility?
 
It’s just that your research is far beyond the scope of a brand new learner asking questions, so it appears that we are being had, only for the purpose of your squeezing your POV among the questions. Some of us have been on these fora long enough to discern between someone trying to learn and someone trying to influence. This is not the place to expose examples. But I have noted your expertise in exploring blogs and wonder why you can’t explore CAF using the search facility?
Do you intend on making any positive contributions to this forum or are you content to just continue harassing me?

In one of the rules I believe I saw something that said to focus on the subject, not the person. What is your interpretation of that rule?

I’m new here, but not to Catholicism, university educated so know how to research. Are you intimidated by my knowledge? Should I just leave you to dominate the discussion and get back to the kitchen?
 
I’m new here, but not to Catholicism, university educated so know how to research. Are you intimidated by my knowledge? Should I just leave you to dominate the discussion and get back to the kitchen?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7559553&postcount=62
OurLadyPerpHelp said:
I’m finding that I do not have a sufficient level of knowledge of my own rite let alone anyone else’s. If you don’t mind I’ll keep my research to the Roman rite for now and one day look into the others.
🤷
 
(snipped for brevity)
Unfortunately, we lost half the soda bottle and now I’m thinking of all those baptized Catholics who don’t go to Mass anymore. I know the pill gets a lot of the blame, but during an upheaval like the Sexual Revolution, we needed the stability of our faith the most. There had to have been a better way to release the liturgical tension of four centuries and not lose so many souls.

Your theory that we didn’t copy the Protestants is not as immediately solid and I’ll take some more time to dwell on it. It seems somewhat specious to contend something our neighbours were doing for four centuries we just happened to adopt because it made sense at the time. It’s true Protestants are not locked into one historical liturgical expression, but then again, perhaps that’s why there are so many denominations of them.

I’ve read some other perspectives that state the Protestant reforms to the liturgy were for deeper reasons than convenience and familiarity. Some contend that turning the priest around was to decrease the emphasis on Sacrifice, going away from a high altar onto a table furthered that direction towards a community meal. 👍

Switching to the native tongue from a sacred was to lessen the importance of the priesthood itself.
Ah yes, the blending of the ordained priesthood & the laity was paramount.
Of course I’m sure you’re aware of these counter-arguments. If I can rely on responses like yours then I’ll be encouraged to seek out more answers here. I greatly admire your knowledge and endeavor to build up the same some day.
I do agree with Mark that we didn’t intend to “copy” the average Protestant services that we see today, but from all that I’ve read & studied, ecumenicism was a priority at the council. Our traditional type of ecumenicim was conversion…to live our faith in our daily life, to be such shining examples of holy people that we caused non-Catholics to WANT to examine our faith.

Not any more, Vatican II’s effort was not directed toward Converting non-Catholics. It was directed toward changing the Church to make it more palatable to non-Catholics. Think about this, the biggest problems that Protestants have with our Church are:
  1. You “worship” Mary
  2. You believe that Christ is really present on your Altars. You teach that He is offering Himself as an unbloody Sacrifice again & again.
I will first refer you to the words of Father Karl Rahner who tried, before & after the council, to concoct a philosophy of “Spiritual, but not physical Perpetual Virginity” of Mary. Rahner was the darling of the periti, sometimes called the Father of the Council, the author of the words & ideas behind the “Anonymous Christian” theory. His words about the first Marian Schema presented at the Council:

"According to Father Rahner, whose written comments were distributed to all participants in the conference, (why?? he was simply a guest) the schema as then drafted was ‘a source of the greatest concern’…Were the text to be accepted as it stood, he contended, ‘unimaginable harm would result from an ecumenical point of view, in relation to both Orientals and Protestants.’ It could not be too strongly stressed, he said,** 'that all the success achieved in the field of ecumenism through the Council and in connection with the Council will be rendered worthless by the retention of the (Marian) schema as it stands.**

marycoredemptrix.com/perpetual_virginity.html

You have already found Annibale Bugnini’s infamous quote & that was the second proof of the purpose of the council.

While, as I said before, I don’t believe that the council set out to “copy” today’s average Protestant services…I definitely believe that those who hijacked the council, members of our own hierarchy & the periti that attended the council were determined to make our Mass & our religion more palatable to what they considered “sophisticated”
non-Catholic religions, such as the Lutheran Church & the Anglicans, etc. The comparison between the Novus Ordo Mass & the Mass that Cranmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury under Henry VIII, wrote… is very revealing:

catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/ordo.htm

The last document that I’ll reference is called the Ottaviani Intervention. You may have already studied this, if so, I apologize. It’s a letter, written to Pope Paul VI, by Cardinal Ottaviani & Cardianl Bacci:

An excerpt:“The pastoral reasons adduced to support such a grave break with tradition, even if such reasons could be regarded as holding good in the face of doctrinal considerations, do not seem to us sufficient. The innovations in the Novus Ordo and the fact that all that is of perennial value finds only a minor place, if it subsists at all, could well turn into a certainty the suspicions already prevalent, alas, in many circles, that truths which have always been believed by the Christian people, can be changed or ignored without infidelity to that sacred deposit of doctrine to which the Catholic faith is bound for ever. Recent reforms have amply demonstrated that fresh changes in the liturgy could lead to nothing but complete bewilderment on the part of the faithful who are already showing signs of restiveness and of an indubitable lessening of faith.”

fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html

I’m not trying to influence you, you seem perfectly capable of finding the truth, yourself. These are just some documents you may not have read yet.
 
Thank you for your response Cradle. It is nice to have a civil and charitable, positive contribution to the discussion.

I had not heard of Father Rahner and will 'Google" him to learn about his influence at the Council.

If the intented goal was ecumenism then copying their liturgies would have been a good strategic move in my humble opinion. Maybe not entirely, but certainly in some elements.

One comparison of the two Latin forms I’ve seen makes it clear references to Mary and Sacrifice were deleted from the new Mass. Some people think it no coincidence these are two elements of contention with our separated brethren.

Somewhere I read that Cardinal Ottrivani later retracted his “intervention”. Is that true?

Fisheaters was one of the forums I “lurked” (to use chatroom lingo) prior to joining here. It’s really nasty over there - some there people make Sirach and Constantine look like angels.
 
Nobody has addressed the fact that Latin was originally the vernacular, the early Church held services in the vernacular, and most of the Eastern Churches use the vernacular of the people, so the Protestants were hardly first to hold services in the vernacular. The Catholic Church was. There IS historical precedent for use of the vernacular. It just didn’t come about because the Protestants did it.
Latin was never just another “vernacular,” however; Latin was one of the three languages of the cross so it takes on a special significance.

“IESVS·NAZARENVS·REX·IVDÆORVM”

was the inscription on the cross.

But more to the point, Dom Gueranger states this observation:
Since the liturgical reform had for one of its principal aims the abolition of actions and formulas of mystical signification, it is a logical consequence that its authors had to vindicate the use of the vernacular in divine worship. This in the eyes of the sectarians is a most important item. Cult is no secret matter. The people, they say, must understand what they sing.
Hatred for the Latin language is inborn in the heart of all enemies of Rome. They recognize it as the bond of Catholics throughout the universe, as the arsenal of orthodoxy against all the subtleties of the sectarian spirit. They consider it the most efficient weapon of the papacy. The spirit of rebellion which drives them to confide the universal prayer to the idiom of each people, of each province, of each century, has for the rest produced its fruits and the reformed themselves constantly perceive that the Catholic people, in spite of their Latin prayers, relish better and accomplish with more zeal the duties of cult than the Protestant people.
At every hour of the day divine worship takes place in Catholic churches. (It had been that) The faithful Catholic who assists leaves his mother tongue at the door. Apart from the sermons he hears nothing but mysterious words which, even so, are not heard in the most solemn moment of the Canon of the Mass. Nevertheless, this mystery charms him in such a way that he is not jealous of the lot of the Protestant, even though the latter does not hear a single sound without perceiving its meaning…
We must admit it is a master blow of Protestantism to have declared war on the sacred language. If it should ever succeed in destroying it, it would be well on its way to victory.
 
ProVobis, this is pure blasphemy! I cannot believe you are posting this person’s opinion as if it trumps the teaching authority of the Church and her documents.
Since the liturgical reform had for one of its principal aims the abolition of actions and formulas of mystical signification, it is a logical consequence that its authors had to vindicate the use of the vernacular in divine worship.
 
Latin was never just another “vernacular,” however; Latin was one of the three languages of the cross so it takes on a special significance.

“IESVS·NAZARENVS·REX·IVDÆORVM”

was the inscription on the cross.

But more to the point, Dom Gueranger states this observation:
Is this the very same Dom Gueranger whose cause for canonization was opened in 2005?
 
This thread has derailed. Allow me to point out what went wrong so that you can avoid it in the future.
  • Posters are arguing, not discussing
  • There are accusations going back and forth that are unjustified and add nothing to the discussion.
  • Mr. Voris and RCTV have come under attack. The rule applies to them too. You may disagree, you may not label or judge. A statement of disagreement is just that, "I disagree because . . . "
  • Posts are focussing on each other and not on the OP.
  • Comparisons are being made between the OF and the EF that are less than charitable.
  • Disrespectful comments are being made about Vatican II.
There are too many weaknesses for a moderator to sift through. It would take hours to read every page and edit or delete inappropriate remarks. Therefore, thank you for participating.

Thread is closed.
 
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