Masses. How Many

[FrDavid96]

Should I take it from your handle that you’re a priest?

Coming from a priest then, what would you call the anticipatory or Saturday evening Mass? I won’t go around correcting everybody but I’d like to know.

It’s the Sunday Mass. It’s no different that the Sunday Mass at 6 AM on Sunday, 11 AM on Sunday or 5 PM on Sunday. They are all the Sunday Mass.

What we call it isn’t all that important, except when we call it something that it is not. It’s not an anticipated Mass of Sunday, because Sunday has already begun.

We don’t say that we anticipate something after that something has already begun. We don’t call the Christmas season the season of anticipating the birth of Christ. That’s what we do during Advent. Once Christmas has begun, the anticipating part is over. Same with the weekend. Once the Lord’s Day has begun (at the time of First Vespers on Saturday), we do not anticipate it, we celebrate it.

 

[Rich_C]

It’s the Sunday Mass. It’s no different that the Sunday Mass at 6 AM on Sunday, 11 AM on Sunday or 5 PM on Sunday. They are all the Sunday Mass.

What we call it isn’t all that important, except when we call it something that it is not. It’s not an anticipated Mass of Sunday, because Sunday has already begun.

We don’t say that we anticipate something after that something has already begun. We don’t call the Christmas season the season of anticipating the birth of Christ. That’s what we do during Advent. Once Christmas has begun, the anticipating part is over. Same with the weekend. Once the Lord’s Day has begun (at the time of First Vespers on Saturday), we do not anticipate it, we celebrate it.

If anybody called it Sunday Mass, I would assume they were talking about Sunday itself.

But if you say it doesn’t matter in everyday speech, and “vigil Mass” is fine then, fair enough.

Btw, can I quote you on this? Because when I told my wife I should be able to have my martini (gave up liquor for Lent) on Saturday after 1st vespers, she cried foul.

 

[ProVobis]

on Saturday after 1st vespers,

There’s more than one?

 

[FrDavid96]

If anybody called it Sunday Mass, I would assume they were talking about Sunday itself.

But if you say it doesn’t matter in everyday speech, and “vigil Mass” is fine then, fair enough.

Btw, can I quote you on this? Because when I told my wife I should be able to have my martini (gave up liquor for Lent) on Saturday after 1st vespers, she cried foul.

If you promise that you’ll actually pray First Vespers on Saturday night, then yes, I give my consent to quoting what I wrote when you talk to the missus. Fair is fair.

 

[ProVobis]

I do remember reading something from Rome about this…I remember it, but I cannot provide a specific reference.

The rule is 1 Mass on a weekday, or 2 on Sundays.

The canon allows the bishop to give permission for 2 weekday and 3 Sunday. The key word is permission.

That much is a given. It’s clear from the law.

Probably, every bishop in the US gives that permission automatically. Can’t prove it, but I’ll bet on it any day of the week.

The bishop can dispense from the canon, and go beyond permission, to allow for more Masses. The clarification that came from Rome is that he can dispense to allow for 1 more Mass each day, for a total of 3 weekday or 4 Sunday (or other Solemnity). If I can find the reference, I’ll get back here and post it.

That issue came up on our Summorum Pontificum discussions. Although the Pope has granted every priest the right to celebrate the EF, it really doesn’t seem to be a viable option in many cases if the bishop has not allowed the priest to say more than his allowed quota. Unless, of course, he’s already saying the EF.

 

[Vico]

The anticipated thing throws me off. So does a Saturday evening Mass count towards a priests Sunday allotment?

No. The Liturgical day is midnight to midnight, it is the observance of Sunday and solemnities that begins on the evening of the previous liturgical day. I am not using the word anticipated as an official term but the pedestrian meaning from the dictionary: “to make happen earlier” (Collins American.) i.e., the observance begins on the previous liturgical day.

The norms from the Congregation for Divine Worship (1969) define the liturgical day:Chapter I-a. Liturgical Days

     **         I. The Liturgical Day in General

**3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the divine office.
The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM

 

[Rich_C]

If you promise that you’ll actually pray First Vespers on Saturday night, then yes, I give my consent to quoting what I wrote when you talk to the missus. Fair is fair.

We’re saying vespers this Saturday–woohoo!

 

[FrDavid96]

No. The Liturgical day is midnight to midnight, it is the observance of Sunday and solemnities that begins on the evening of the previous liturgical day. I am not using the word anticipated as an official term but the pedestrian meaning from the dictionary: “to make happen earlier” (Collins American.) i.e., the observance begins on the previous liturgical day.

The norms from the Congregation for Divine Worship (1969) define the liturgical day:Chapter I-a. Liturgical Days

     **         I. The Liturgical Day in General

**3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the divine office.
The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM

Well, you’ll have to tell Bl. John Paul II (who promulgated the 1983 Code of Canon Law 14 years after 1969) that he was wrong when he wrote this:

1. Because the faithful are obliged to attend Mass unless there is a grave impediment, Pastors have the corresponding duty to offer to everyone the real possibility of fulfilling the precept. The provisions of Church law move in this direction, as for example in the faculty granted to priests, with the prior authorization of the diocesan Bishop, to celebrate more than one Mass on Sundays and holy days, the institution of evening Masses and the provision which allows the obligation to be fulfilled from Saturday evening onwards, starting at the time of First Vespers of Sunday. From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers. Consequently, the liturgy of what is sometimes called the “Vigil* [pre-feast day] Mass” is in effect the “festive” Mass of Sunday, [it is the Lord’s day], at which the celebrant is required to preach the homily and recite the Prayer of the Faithful.

He says that Saturday evening IS the Day of the Lord. Dominici diei est.
Unfortunately, the English translator skipped those words, so I’ve replaced them.

I rather think that since he was the one who promulgated the 1983 Code, his interpretation of it carries more weight than anyone else’s. See canon 16.

• The Latin text does not use the word “vigil” that’s the English translator. The Latin text says “praefestive”

1. Quandoquidem fidelibus officium instat Missam participandi, nisi gravi impedimento prohibeantur, congruum etiam Pastoribus iniungitur officium ut veram praebeant omnibus facultatem eidem praecepto satisfaciendi. Hanc ad partem spectant iurisecclesiastici regulae, qualis est, exempli causa, facultas ipsi sacerdoti tributa, licentia quidem dioecesani Episcopi antea recepta, pluries die dominico atque festivis diebus celebrandi Missam, instituendi Missas vespertinas ac tandem etiam statuendi designationem secundum quam utile tempus ad obligationem explendam iam die Saturni vespera incipere, temporum convenientia facta primis cum dominici diei Vesperis. Ad liturgicam consuetudinem enim dies festus incipit eiusmodi Sacris Vespertinis. Propterea Missae liturgia nonnumquam “praefestivae” appellatae, quae vero reapse pleno iure “festiva” est, dominici diei est, instante etiam celebrantis officio ut homiliam sacram habeat et cum fidelibus precationem universalem absolvat.

 

[marywarfield]

No. The Liturgical day is midnight to midnight, it is the observance of Sunday and solemnities that begins on the evening of the previous liturgical day. I am not using the word anticipated as an official term but the pedestrian meaning from the dictionary: “to make happen earlier” (Collins American.) i.e., the observance begins on the previous liturgical day.

The norms from the Congregation for Divine Worship (1969) define the liturgical day:Chapter I-a. Liturgical Days

     **         I. The Liturgical Day in General

**3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the divine office.
The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM

RC can do this yes in the same way the Byzantium considers
Vespers to be the first Office of the Day.
People get hung up on this legalese but the reality
is that for most of the history of the Catholics Sunday
began on the evening of Saturday- period.
Therefore the Pope and the poster here is quite
correct in stating that Saturday evening Mass IS Sunday.

 

[ProVobis]

He says that Saturday evening IS the Day of the Lord. Dominici diei est.
Unfortunately, the English translator skipped those words, so I’ve replaced them.
…

• The Latin text does not use the word “vigil” that’s the English translator. The Latin text says “praefestive”

Perhaps translations should come with warning labels? I don’t trust them myself.

 

[dans0622]

Well, you’ll have to tell Bl. John Paul II (who promulgated the 1983 Code of Canon Law 14 years after 1969) that he was wrong…
I rather think that since he was the one who promulgated the 1983 Code, his interpretation of it carries more weight than anyone else’s. See canon 16. …

Hello,

I, for one, wouldn’t consider *Dies Domini *to be an authentic interpretation (c. 16) of any law. But, maybe we went to different canon law schools.

Dan

 

[TimothyH]

We’re saying vespers this Saturday–woohoo!

No saying vespers after breakfast!!!

-Tim-

 

[Rich_C]

No saying vespers after breakfast!!!

-Tim-

LOL. I said martinis not mimosas!

 

[ProVobis]

LOL. I said martinis

That’s what one of my coworkers used to call the movies he used to take his kids to in the afternoon.

 

[ProVobis]

Hello,

I, for one, wouldn’t consider *Dies Domini *to be an authentic interpretation (c. 16) of any law. But, maybe we went to different canon law schools.

Dan

I didn’t go to canon law school but it seems that there’s more to it than that. I don’t see it as a literal translation but the gist is that “Therefore, the liturgy of the Mass, sometimes called pre-festive, is indeed truly (by law) fully festive…” festive being that of the Lord’s Day. Sure, the English equivalent of Dies Domini may be Sunday but it seems the translation isn’t quite precise in this case. (Dominica is actually the Latin for Sunday.) Note too that the Missae is in the genitive case, which ties everything together in the Latin, especially the “diei” not “dies.”

.

 

[Vico]

Well, you’ll have to tell Bl. John Paul II (who promulgated the 1983 Code of Canon Law 14 years after 1969) that he was wrong when he wrote this:49. Because the faithful are obliged to attend Mass unless there is a grave impediment, Pastors have the corresponding duty to offer to everyone the real possibility of fulfilling the precept. The provisions of Church law move in this direction, as for example in the faculty granted to priests, with the prior authorization of the diocesan Bishop, to celebrate more than one Mass on Sundays and holy days, the institution of evening Masses and the provision which allows the obligation to be fulfilled from Saturday evening onwards, starting at the time of First Vespers of Sunday. From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers. Consequently, the liturgy of what is sometimes called the “Vigil* [pre-feast day] Mass” is in effect the “festive” Mass of Sunday, [it is the Lord’s day], at which the celebrant is required to preach the homily and recite the Prayer of the Faithful.He says that Saturday evening IS the Day of the Lord. Dominici diei est.
Unfortunately, the English translator skipped those words, so I’ve replaced them.

I rather think that since he was the one who promulgated the 1983 Code, his interpretation of it carries more weight than anyone else’s. See canon 16.

• The Latin text does not use the word “vigil” that’s the English translator. The Latin text says “praefestive”

1. Quandoquidem fidelibus officium instat Missam participandi, nisi gravi impedimento prohibeantur, congruum etiam Pastoribus iniungitur officium ut veram praebeant omnibus facultatem eidem praecepto satisfaciendi. Hanc ad partem spectant iurisecclesiastici regulae, qualis est, exempli causa, facultas ipsi sacerdoti tributa, licentia quidem dioecesani Episcopi antea recepta, pluries die dominico atque festivis diebus celebrandi Missam, instituendi Missas vespertinas ac tandem etiam statuendi designationem secundum quam utile tempus ad obligationem explendam iam die Saturni vespera incipere, temporum convenientia facta primis cum dominici diei Vesperis. Ad liturgicam consuetudinem enim dies festus incipit eiusmodi Sacris Vespertinis. Propterea Missae liturgia nonnumquam “praefestivae” appellatae, quae vero reapse pleno iure “festiva” est, dominici diei est, instante etiam celebrantis officio ut homiliam sacram habeat et cum fidelibus precationem universalem absolvat.

The observance of Sunday and solemnities begin on the previous day. This is consistent with what Blessed Pope John Paul II said. If this were not so, then the obligation for Sunday Mass could be fulfilled on Friday evening since that would be the evening of the previous day.

It is confusing to equate the start of the the observance on the previous evening (vel vespere diei praecedentis) with the day (die festo).Can. 1248 - § 1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico vel ipso die festo vel vespere diei praecedentis.

 

[ProVobis]

The observance of Sunday and solemnities begin on the previous day. This is consistent with what Blessed Pope John Paul II said. If this were not so, then the obligation for Sunday Mass could be fulfilled on Friday evening since that would be the evening of the previous day.

It is confusing to equate the start of the the observance on the previous evening (vel vespere diei praecedentis) with the day (die festo).Can. 1248 - § 1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico vel ipso die festo vel vespere diei praecedentis.

I think what you’re trying to say is that Saturday evening is not Sunday but liturgically the festiva (or the Lord’s Day) begins on the vespere of the day preceding the nominal festiva?

 

[Phemie]

There’s more than one?

Yes, 1st Vespers of Sunday on Saturday and 2nd Vespers of Sunday on Sunday. Same for Holy Days.

 

[FrDavid96]

The observance of Sunday and solemnities begin on the previous day. This is consistent with what Blessed Pope John Paul II said. If this were not so, then the obligation for Sunday Mass could be fulfilled on Friday evening since that would be the evening of the previous day.

It is confusing to equate the start of the the observance on the previous evening (vel vespere diei praecedentis) with the day (die festo).Can. 1248 - § 1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico vel ipso die festo vel vespere diei praecedentis.

There’s really nothing confusing about it. For liturgical purposes (all liturgical purposes) the liturgical day of solemnities begins on the evening before the calendar day. It’s how all the ancient Judaeo-Christian and even pagan calendars operated for much of history. It’s how all the Eastern Christian calendars still operate to this day. It’s more our modern concept that the day begins at midnight which is less consistent with a biblical and historical understanding of the day.

I would say that people put too much emphasis on the clause “the observance of.” Since we must be consistent. If it is indeed the observance, then everything else follows. If the Cardinal Deacon in Rome announces that “Easter will be observed on April 25” does that mean that it isn’t really Easter, it’s only the observance of it? Now, I don’t recall what exact words he uses, nevertheless it makes the point that the “observance of” a particular time in the Church means that it is indeed that time.

I do have a question:

How do you interpret the clause “dominici diei est” in the context of the sentence:

Propterea Missae liturgia nonnumquam “praefestivae” appellatae, quae vero reapse pleno iure “festiva” est, dominici diei est,…

I won’t quote the whole paragraph since it’s been quoted and re-quoted enough. But again, within the context of that paragraph, how do you interpret the words:

dominici diei est?

 

[Vico]

I think what you’re trying to say is that Saturday evening is not Sunday but liturgically the festiva (or the Lord’s Day) begins on the vespere of the day preceding the nominal festiva?

The canon indicates two days, the holy day itself “ipso die festo” and the preceeding day “diei praecedentis”.

There may be time in some dioceses, where between noon and midnight, there are two masses, one that is using the Saturday readings and another using the Sunday readings, where either would fulfill the Sunday mass obligation.

Midnight to midnight days, for my example of Immaculate Conception and Advent Sunday 2: Friday Evening - Friday, IC observance begins
Saturday Morning - Saturday IC
Saturday Afternoon - Saturday IC
Saturday Evening - Saturday IC, Sunday observance begins
Sunday Morning - Sunday
Sunday Afternoon - Sunday
Sunday Evening - Sunday