Masterbation as an Alternative to Normal Sex

[OraLabora]

Besides, Jesus specified an outlet. Mat 19,12. If one finds himself driven in this area, then he should marry. If adolescent, he will need to sacrifice for a while, if celibate, then he needs to make commitments or reorient is life.

But specifically, he was asking about the disparity of sexual drive within marriage. You’re suggesting that someone marry if driven. But then within marriage you suggest that the partner with the higher drive, just basically grin and bear it when frustrated.

Since I prefer practical solutions, I will suggest what helped for me to deal with this issue: at age 50 I took up road biking again after many years. I rode 3000 km last summer, in difficult terrain (lots of hills).

Take up a sport with a high level of physical exertion. It helps deal with many issues, namely frustration including sexual, anger, and physical fitness.

 

[Newbie2]

It could certainly mitigate the culpability of someone who sincerely, even if mistakenly, believes in a physical benefit and does it because of that. If anything the Church could study the situation and formulate an appropriate response, even if it isn’t the response that millions of horny men want to hear.

An "appropriate response such as ?? Are you asking that the Church specifically address the issue of masturbation as being “more prostate friendly- healthy” (assuming for the moment that the research you cite is accurate) than not masturbating?I think in practical terms I probably have more of a quibble with the propensity to assign to masturbation a higher level of culpability than actually exists for most in today’s hyper-sexualized context, than I do with its inherent definition as intrinsically disordered and a grave sin.

I also think that the Church does a poor job of lending a helping hand to those who do not have a natural outlet for their sexuality. It’s more the pity because in the vast treasury that is monastic life, there are concrete examples on how to deal with sexuality in a fully celibate environment. And it relies not on the denial of one’s sexuality, but in its redirection. Our abbot is an award-winning organist and an incredible musician. If you listened to his music, you’d have no doubt that he’s redirected his virility to his instrument, and not towards the flesh. Another expresses his yearning for a feminine presence in his life in the feminine qualities of his beautiful flower arrangements for the altar, and in his work designing vestments which the monastery sells to clergy.

What would you suggest the Church to as far as lending a helping hand (no pun intended here, folks )?

And we would all benefit from reading the Martyrology every day.

 

[crazzeto]

I have absolutly no issue understanding your argument. The problem is you’re having trouble staying logically consitant in your argument.

You have some difficulty with the concept I think, of a disease having a non-deterministic risk factor.

A decreased risk may be statistically significant for a population of men, but it may be small enough to be insignificant for an individual, and there is no guarantee that the behavior in question will improve your risk significantly.

You often hear in the media that a certain food, medication, activity, or whatever increases the risk off getting cancer by 30%. People think “wow, 30% more risk, I better not do that”. But people do not have a sense of the proportion of the risk. An example is that if the risk is 1:500,000 for a certain disease or 0.0002%, 30% more risk means it goes to about 1.3:500,000 or 0.00026%

That may be statistically significant for a population and a statistician, but not so much for an individual. Those are examples. I don’t know the numbers for prostate cancer; 1:6 men will get the disease over their entire lifetime. For many it will be the old-age, slow-growing, nearly silent kind. Others will have a more aggressive cancer that shows up earlier, say in the 50s. It’s the kind we want to avoid.

It may mean that taken along with other prostate cancer risk factors, putting all factors on your side can make a bigger overall population impact; for example, avoiding fatty foods (also implicated in prostate cancer risk).

I would say that the risk change is low enough at this point that a change in behavior is probably not going to achieve much, but I do think it merits study and an open mind.

 

[distracted]

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*** is it not said in the bible "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,mark 9:47 ?.. doesn’t the prostate follow the same road?***

thank you!!!

 

[Lauds]

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thank you!!!

It would be illogical to pluck out your eye, etc, else most of us would be walking around with no eyes, no hands no feet, no arms, this said from my priests sermon at a mass about a month ago. Masturbation is not a sin, its God given, its almost an impossible fight to win even for the stouthearted catholics, & there arent many of them. God meant for humans to masturbate or it wouldnt be such an impossible fight for most.There are many other things a person has to go through in this life, before he passes, man doesn`t wear a halo, he is human, to err is human, Thus, Jesus our Saviour

 

[Thecapz]

If you need to masturbate, then lock the door and go for it. I guarantee 100% you will not go to hell, or be struck down by God.

 

[OraLabora]

If you need to masturbate, then lock the door and go for it. I guarantee 100% you will not go to hell, or be struck down by God.

Sounds like a great guarantee. How will I collect if you’re wrong?

Pascal’s Wager comes to mind here…

 

[Thecapz]

LOL. Ok I can’t guarantee but it’s a safe bet!

 

[chessmane4e5]

It would be illogical to pluck out your eye, etc, else most of us would be walking around with no eyes, no hands no feet, no arms, this said from my priests sermon at a mass about a month ago. Masturbation is not a sin, its God given, its almost an impossible fight to win even for the stouthearted catholics, & there arent many of them. God meant for humans to masturbate or it wouldnt be such an impossible fight for most.There are many other things a person has to go through in this life, before he passes, man doesn`t wear a halo, he is human, to err is human, Thus, Jesus our Saviour

For a minute there it almost sounded like you said that your Priest said masturbation is not a sin.

Since the Catechism says it is a sin, I am placing my money there.

The argument that because it is an impossible fight to win is firstly false, and secondly a fallacy. Even if were true that everyone givens in to masturbation because it is just so tough not to, that would not make it any less of a sin. God decides what is sin, not human weakness.

“God meant for humans to masturbate”

Where is your proof of this. I am pretty sure in the beginning God created Man and Woman and told them to be fruitful and multiply. It is not fruitful to masturbate.

 

[Thecapz]

To counteract my argument, while there is nothing wrong with masturbation. I don’t believe there is any thing in the bible, except for something about spilling your seed on the ground (in the same book as forcing a rape victim to marry her attacker, so take it with a grain of salt)

Just always be sure, not to let it interfere with your social life or intimate life with your partner.

 

[crazzeto]

To counteract my argument, while there is nothing wrong with masturbation. I don’t believe there is any thing in the bible, except for something about spilling your seed on the ground (in the same book as forcing a rape victim to marry her attacker, so take it with a grain of salt)

Just always be sure, not to let it interfere with your social life or intimate life with your partner.

I read Gensis recently and missed forcing a rape victem to take her attacker as her husband.

 

[Thecapz]

Touche’ .

To quote
“It evolved a man who was supposed to “plant” his seed in his wife but ended up “MB”, in which he lost his seed. Their are 2 ways to look at it,
1.God wanted “this man” not to loose his seed but he did anyway.
2.God wanted nobody to loose their seed.”

So again debatable if it even is a law created by god or by man.

 

[crazzeto]

Are you responding to my post? This doesn’t address your claims that at any point a rape victem was ever made to take her attacker has her husband… Also if that “touche” was in response to me, I’m just asking for your support for the claim.

 

[chessmane4e5]

To counteract my argument, while there is nothing wrong with masturbation. I don’t believe there is any thing in the bible, except for something about spilling your seed on the ground (in the same book as forcing a rape victim to marry her attacker, so take it with a grain of salt)

Just always be sure, not to let it interfere with your social life or intimate life with your partner.

You really should quote the Bible and not just refer to something, as in this case, that is false.

I think you are referring to O’nan and when he “spilled his seed onto the ground”. Gen 38:9

I would be interested in what you read about a rape victim marrying her attacker.

You are also falling into the trap of Sola Scriptura. While the Bible does not use the words “masturbation is a sin”, Tradition says otherwise.

If it as natural as you say it is, then why for 5000+ years has it been viewed as a sin? If the Bible does not give us a definitive answer, where could this belief have come from?

If you are Catholic, you have to believe in the Bible and Tradition. Masturbation is a sin, it always has been and always will be.

I think understanding God’s plan for sex would help you better understand why. I suggest reading the book in my signature or John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.

Otherwise, your belief is based on your own interpretations of the Bible and your own thoughts. I would rather listen to the Church then my own fallible conscience.

 

[Thecapz]

“Then Judah said to Onan, ‘Take your brother’s wife, and do your duty as her brother-in-law, to maintain your brother’s line.’
9 But Onan, knowing that the line would not count as his, spilt his seed on the ground every time he slept with his brother’s wife, to avoid providing offspring for his brother.
10 What he did was offensive to Yahweh, who killed him too.”

Gen 38: 8-10

What was the sin? It’s some men’s interpretation that it is masturbation, others see it as turning his back on his duty.

So it is inconclusive that masturbation is a sin, just by looking at the bible. It is a interpretation by man that it is a sin.

 

[chessmane4e5]

“Then Judah said to Onan, ‘Take your brother’s wife, and do your duty as her brother-in-law, to maintain your brother’s line.’
9 But Onan, knowing that the line would not count as his, spilt his seed on the ground every time he slept with his brother’s wife, to avoid providing offspring for his brother.
10 What he did was offensive to Yahweh, who killed him too.”

Gen 38: 8-10

What was the sin? It’s some men’s interpretation that it is masturbation, others see it as turning his back on his duty.

So it is inconclusive that masturbation is a sin, just by looking at the bible. It is a interpretation by man that it is a sin.

Actually, I do not think Onan masturbated, the way I read this passage is that he “pulled out” (coitus interruptus).

Either way, clearly their is something wrong with what he did.

I used to try and rationalize that God was displeased with Onon, not for pulling out, but it was Onan’s mindset, that he didn’t want to have kids that would not be in his line.

After reading “Good News About Sex & Marriage” by Christopher West, I have not masturbated nor used contraception. This is because I finally understand the glory of God creating us male and female. My entire view of sex and love is changed, and for the better.

But in the end, I do not think there is any 100% fool proof way to know whether masturbation is wrong (along with a lot of other things). Yet, the Church is here to guide us.

On the other hand, lets assume that it is okay to masturbate. Why not sacrifice it for God’s glory. Lent is approaching, why not firmly resolve to not masturbate during Lent and see what happens? Pray to God and Jesus for the strength to not do it. Ask Mary to intercede for you as well. Pray the rosary daily, especially during those times when you would normally masturbate (in the morning, after school/work, just before bed). What is the worse that could happen?

 

[crazzeto]

Actually, I do not think Onan masturbated, the way I read this passage is that he “pulled out” (coitus interruptus).

Either way, clearly their is something wrong with what he did.

Lets think of it this way, when one reads this in context it’s clear that the act of “spilling his seed” was meant to prevent pregancy. The first logical question is, in what way is masturbation a contraceptive? Clearly he pulled out, thus the usage of Onan in this thread isn’t applicable.

I used to try and rationalize that God was displeased with Onon, not for pulling out, but it was Onan’s mindset, that he didn’t want to have kids that would not be in his line.

After reading “Good News About Sex & Marriage” by Christopher West, I have not masturbated nor used contraception. This is because I finally understand the glory of God creating us male and female. My entire view of sex and love is changed, and for the better.

But in the end, I do not think there is any 100% fool proof way to know whether masturbation is wrong (along with a lot of other things). Yet, the Church is here to guide us.

I disagree with you here, there is such a way:

The Catholic Church is infallible in the matters of faith and morals

Here are the two paragraphs from the Catechism dealing with the subject:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

On the other hand, lets assume that it is okay to masturbate. Why not sacrifice it for God’s glory. Lent is approaching, why not firmly resolve to not masturbate during Lent and see what happens? Pray to God and Jesus for the strength to not do it. Ask Mary to intercede for you as well. Pray the rosary daily, especially during those times when you would normally masturbate (in the morning, after school/work, just before bed). What is the worse that could happen?

Which is the problem with masturbation, there is no way in which it can possibly glorify God. More over it’s is an act which is not consitant with the natural law (among other disoreded sexual acts).

Edit
So has thecapz moved on from his claims that a rape victem was forced to marry her attacker at some point in gensis?

 

[chessmane4e5]

I agree that the story of Onan is not applicable, I did not bring it up, but was trying to clarify

My comment of knowing 100% would be more for those non-Catholics or Sola Scriptura believers. Which is why I made my last statement about the Church guiding us, I should have been more clear.

I completely agree that masturbation is evil. I try to live my life as the Church says I should, and if I was ever in error, I would be extremely grateful if it was pointed out to me

 

[crazzeto]

I agree that the story of Onan is not applicable, I did not bring it up, but was trying to clarify

I was more commenting to those whom are throwing it around this thread, rather than at you.

My comment of knowing 100% would be more for those non-Catholics or Sola Scriptura believers. Which is why I made my last statement about the Church guiding us, I should have been more clear.

I completely agree that masturbation is evil. I try to live my life as the Church says I should, and if I was ever in error, I would be extremely grateful if it was pointed out to me

At least most of those people advocating the act thus far have been Catholics, though I guess I must admit I lept to an assuption that the poster your responded to is also one. That was the spirit in which that response was made

 

[Lauds]

For a minute there it almost sounded like you said that your Priest said masturbation is not a sin.

Since the Catechism says it is a sin, I am placing my money there.

The argument that because it is an impossible fight to win is firstly false, and secondly a fallacy. Even if were true that everyone givens in to masturbation because it is just so tough not to, that would not make it any less of a sin. God decides what is sin, not human weakness.

“God meant for humans to masturbate”

Where is your proof of this. I am pretty sure in the beginning God created Man and Woman and told them to be fruitful and multiply. It is not fruitful to masturbate.

99.9 % of the population masturbates, in spite of being married . or fornicating. Babies masturbate, from there on up, & I dare say that many a priest on the qt will say , it`s not a sin to masturbate, some of them I am sure have their problems with it too
. God knows man is weak, human weakness plays a huge huge part in the sinful things we do, including fornication & masturbation. There is nothing wrong with masturbation, man is a sexual being,masturbation can be a sublimation for many until they marry, what about the poor folks who cant find someone to marry. Masturbation is ok