Masterbation is or isn't a sin?

[LilyM]

This isn’t exactly the Commandment - this is one example of God speaking to one person. How can it be applied so broadly, as the Church does? If every one of God’s OT commands must be followed all the time, then that’s a whole new can of worms.

I’ve already addressed this objection back in post number 55, because of course you were going to raise it. I did at least hope you’d do me the common courtesy of reading and considering ALL my points before you so predictably shot your mouth off again. Obviously I hoped for too much.

Here it is again:

LilyM:

Yes, I know it’s a case of one individual, but then the case of Simon Magus was also the case of one individual. Simon Magus was condemned for trying to obtain the gift of the Holy Spirit by paying for it. And we don’t assume that HIS case is limited just to himself alone. Instead, since scripture was written for the instruction of all of us, we learn from it that it’s ALWAYS wrong to attempt to buy or sell what is sacred, which is named the sin of simony after Simon Magus.

Let me repeat that - scripture was written to instruct ALL of us. What could possibly be instructive about discussing this particular command if it was meant just for one individual and has no relevance except to that individual? Onan’s commandment is recorded for our benefit so that we can ALL learn about appropriate and inappropriate sexual behaviour from it.

 

[aperture]

Let me repeat that - scripture was written to instruct ALL of us. What could possibly be instructive about discussing this particular command if it was meant just for one individual and has no relevance except to that individual? Onan’s commandment is recorded for our benefit so that we can ALL learn about appropriate and inappropriate sexual behaviour from it.

If every command God gave to anyone applies to everyone, all the time [and this is assuming that I agree with your/the Church’s interpretation of why God punished Onan], then what about 1 Samuel 15:

Samuel said to Saul: “It was I the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel. Now, therefore, listen to the message of the LORD. This is what the LORD of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’”

According to this, anyone who attacks us must be killed, and any innocent people with them must be killed as well. No exceptions. If God commanded it in one instance, He commands it in all.

Is this not along the lines of what you’re suggesting, that all scripture instructs in all situations?

 

[LilyM]

If every command God gave to anyone applies to everyone, all the time [and this is assuming that I agree with your/the Church’s interpretation of why God punished Onan], then what about 1 Samuel 15:

According to this, anyone who attacks us must be killed, and any innocent people with them must be killed as well. No exceptions. If God commanded it in one instance, He commands it in all.

Is this not along the lines of what you’re suggesting, that all scripture instructs in all situations?

Not in the slightest. Now let’s be specific - Amalek is someone who has shown himself an enemy to the nation of Israel - to the point of forcibly acting against the Israelites. We are allowed to meet force with force, and defend our country against its enemies. That part of the commandment DOES still stand.

In terms of killing innocent people - for one thing Jesus specifically abrogated the idea that indiscriminate and unjustified killing of innocents was permissible when He exhorted us to turn the other cheek in the NT. In the same manner as He abrogated the OT dietary law when He told Peter that all food was clean in the NT. In the same manner as He abrogated the law regarding divorce when He stated in the NT that marriage is till death and that whoever marries a divorced person commits adultery.

 

[Holly3278]

Simple answer: Masturbation is a sin. And it is a grave sin at that.

 

[aperture]

Simple answer: Masturbation is a sin. And it is a grave sin at that.

Just wondering, what’s the point of posts like these? This line of thought - “Sin. End of story.” - has been posted before, and has only been ignored or spurred requests for clarification, because it’s so totally unhelpful. I appreciate LilyM’s discussion with me here. She’s met each of my questions with a response, and provided evidence and reasoning where she can [assuming LilyM’s a she.] Fiat responses like yours do more harm for your position than good, in my eyes.

 

[godly_sinner159]

um i dont think its a sin that really might be a man made rule because seriously think about it would god count that as a sin and let us burn in eternal damnnation because we made ourselfs feel good? i dont think he would so i say no its not a sin just a man made thing to keep us down i say feel god and thank god

 

[Lycorth]

um i dont think its a sin that really might be a man made rule because seriously think about it would god count that as a sin and let us burn in eternal damnnation because we made ourselfs feel good? i dont think he would so i say no its not a sin just a man made thing to keep us down i say feel god and thank god

What if masturbation leads to worse things, as it often seems to do?

You may disagree with God’s teaching, but His teaching as passed down to us through the Church is certain on the matter - masturbation is a sin, and a serious one at that. You cannot call yourself Catholic and pick and choose what teachings you accept.

God doesn’t care about how “good” we feel; we are to learn how to feel good by being good.

Believe me, it was hard for me to accept, too. But, I’m glad that I did. One less monkey on my back.

 

[OraLabora]

What if masturbation leads to worse things, as it often seems to do?

What if it doesn’t, as often seems to be the case?

What if wine leads to alcoholism, as it often seems to? Or what if it doesn’t, which also frequently is the case?

 

[Lycorth]

What if it doesn’t, as often seems to be the case?

What if wine leads to alcoholism, as it often seems to? Or what if it doesn’t, which also frequently is the case?

Wine consumption isn’t a sin - masturbation is.

 

[Black_Angel_1]

Wine consumption isn’t a sin - masturbation is.

This is why Sin = Natural Human Nature and Instinct.

Masturbation is something 100% natural to human beings. It even has health benefits through a scientific analysis.

It can even strengthen your mind and emotions that relate to having a relationship with the opposite sex.

Why is it a grave sin when it is completely natural?

Then that means you’d have to make anything that makes you happy through personal means a grave sin.

Meaning to not sin, you’d have to be utterly miserable.

Masturbation is a sin, But wine consumption isn’t? That doesn’t make sense. Wine is alcoholic, meaning it kills brain cells, it leads to being drunk and possibly hurting others and leading to deaths, but a simple natural act of self pleasure that strengthens several bodily functions is immoral and a grave sin?

 

[OraLabora]

Wine consumption isn’t a sin - masturbation is.

I’m not arguing that.

I am arguing though that the supposed evils that masturbation “can” lead to, are more or less on the same level as the evils that wine “can” lead to, and that it is wrong to equate a man who masturbates occasionally while on an extended business trip or on military duty away from his wife, with someone who is addicted to porn or whatever evil it allegedly leads to.

Interestingly in the CCC masturbation appears to be the only grave sin for which the author(s) seem to have gone to some trouble to define extenuating circumstances that reduce culpability, and the “loophole” is wide enough to drive a bus through, sideways.

As I pointed out elsewhere, it’s almost as if the Church leaders recognized that their position on masturbation was untenable, but since it can’t go back and rewrite faith and morals issues, since the magisterium is supposedly infallible on that, they instead wrote in loopholes that would pretty much excuse the majority of the population.

At the risk of getting flamed, this sin is blown way out of proportion, especially by the posters on this forum. Even my very orthodox, 80 y.o. benedictine confessor doesn’t make such a huge deal of it.

 

[Lycorth]

This is why Sin = Natural Human Nature and Instinct.

Masturbation is something 100% natural to human beings. It even has health benefits through a scientific analysis.

It can even strengthen your mind and emotions that relate to having a relationship with the opposite sex.

Why is it a grave sin when it is completely natural?

Then that means you’d have to make anything that makes you happy through personal means a grave sin.

Meaning to not sin, you’d have to be utterly miserable.

Masturbation is a sin, But wine consumption isn’t? That doesn’t make sense. Wine is alcoholic, meaning it kills brain cells, it leads to being drunk and possibly hurting others and leading to deaths, but a simple natural act of self pleasure that strengthens several bodily functions is immoral and a grave sin?

Over-consumption of alcohol kills brain cells.

Masturbation is not necessary for bodily health; I do not trust studies that claim so. For centuries masturbation was taught as wrong and unnecessary, and Western civilization was just fine.

I used to masturbate frequently. I don’t anymore. I’m not miserable - I’m glad to have that monkey off my back.

I’m not arguing that.

I am arguing though that the supposed evils that masturbation “can” lead to, are more or less on the same level as the evils that wine “can” lead to, and that it is wrong to equate a man who masturbates occasionally while on an extended business trip or on military duty away from his wife, with someone who is addicted to porn or whatever evil it allegedly leads to.

Part of it is personal experience; I have not known a single person who was into masturbation who did not end up getting into porn, strip clubs, hookers, phone sex, fornication, or sex addiction. Usually, most of those. This is true for myself and true for virtually everyone I’ve known. Playing with one’s self for the sake of sexual pleasure only leads to wanting more pleasure in more titillating ways; it’s like how soft drugs like marijuana lead to wanting stronger highs that only worse drugs can provide.

Interestingly in the CCC masturbation appears to be the only grave sin for which the author(s) seem to have gone to some trouble to define extenuating circumstances that reduce culpability, and the “loophole” is wide enough to drive a bus through, sideways.

No, it isn’t. Even when I was a compulsive masturbator, I knew that I had a responsibility to control myself and that just because I read where the CCC talked about “force of acquired habit” I didn’t have an “out” there - rather, a simple and strong warning to break a bad habit that leads to worse ones.

As I pointed out elsewhere, it’s almost as if the Church leaders recognized that their position on masturbation was untenable, but since it can’t go back and rewrite faith and morals issues, since the magisterium is supposedly infallible on that, they instead wrote in loopholes that would pretty much excuse the majority of the population.

The Magisterium is infalllible when teaching in their official capacity on faith and morals.

At the risk of getting flamed, this sin is blown way out of proportion, especially by the posters on this forum. Even my very orthodox, 80 y.o. benedictine confessor doesn’t make such a huge deal of it.

Your very orthodox 80 year old Benedictine confessor is not God nor the Magisterium.

 

[OraLabora]

Part of it is personal experience; I have not known a single person who was into masturbation who did not end up getting into porn, strip clubs, hookers, phone sex, fornication, or sex addiction. Usually, most of those. This is true for myself and true for virtually everyone I’ve known. Playing with one’s self for the sake of sexual pleasure only leads to wanting more pleasure in more titillating ways; it’s like how soft drugs like marijuana lead to wanting stronger highs that only worse drugs can provide.

Your experience then differs from mine.

No, it isn’t. Even when I was a compulsive masturbator, I knew that I had a responsibility to control myself and that just because I read where the CCC talked about “force of acquired habit” I didn’t have an “out” there - rather, a simple and strong warning to break a bad habit that leads to worse ones.

There were other reasons than “force of acquired habit”. How would you deal, for example, with someone who was a victim of sexual abuse and finds it impossible to have a “normal” sexuality? People with issues like those are a lot more frequent than you think. Some were even victims of our own clergy (but we’re not unique in that regard).

The Magisterium is infalllible when teaching in their official capacity on faith and morals.

Your very orthodox 80 year old Benedictine confessor is not God nor the Magisterium.

The teaching of the magisterium is meant to be intimately linked with Christ’s mercy, charity, and compassion for the weaknesses of each and every one of us (we all have them). Little of which appears to be present on this forum. It is clear that you are no confessor with 50 years experience of pastoral care or you wouldn’t be so black-and-white on the issue. My confessor is well aware of the teachings of the magisterium, and it is brought up in confession. But along that comes the need to forgive ourselves for our own weaknesses, and place more emphasis on the effort than the result. While the rule is “black-and-white”, each person’s ability to attain it is in shades of grey.

Some sins require only minor efforts to overcome, some require heroic efforts (think of an alcoholic or heroin addict). Taking the magisterial teaching out of the context of the person who has to deal with his or her own weaknesses, is not very productive, not very charitable, and certainly not very Catholic. It is why we have confessors, who can, one hopes, get to know the penitent (I am a fan of face-to-face confession), and help penitents with their faith walk in the context of individual ability and circumstances.

 

[Lycorth]

Your experience then differs from mine.

Ditto.

There were other reasons than “force of acquired habit”. How would you deal, for example, with someone who was a victim of sexual abuse and finds it impossible to have a “normal” sexuality? People with issues like those are a lot more frequent than you think. Some were even victims of our own clergy (but we’re not unique in that regard).

That has nothing to do with it.

We could use such an argument to justify someone who abuses animals because he was himself abused as a child (even if just bullied a lot on the playground). Where do we draw the line?

It’s wise to draw it early and nip problems in the bud. Which is why God teaches through the Church that masturbation is wrong.

The teaching of the magisterium is meant to be intimately linked with Christ’s mercy, charity, and compassion for the weaknesses of each and every one of us (we all have them). Little of which appears to be present on this forum.

That is untrue; just because people here don’t try to make excuses for a mortal sin doesn’t mean they are lacking in compassion. Christ may have spared the life of the adulteress, but He also told her to go and sin no more.

Why can’t we all do that?

It is clear that you are no confessor with 50 years experience of pastoral care or you wouldn’t be so black-and-white on the issue.

I’m 33 years old and not just compulsively masturbated for almost all of those 33 years, but I was into many sexually deviant perversions and was also sexually abused by an older cousin. I have some insight into these matters, thank you.

Besides, neither of our experiences in life change God’s teaching through the Church.

My confessor is well aware of the teachings of the magisterium, and it is brought up in confession. But along that comes the need to forgive ourselves for our own weaknesses, and place more emphasis on the effort than the result. While the rule is “black-and-white”, each person’s ability to attain it is in shades of grey.

Some sins require only minor efforts to overcome, some require heroic efforts (think of an alcoholic or heroin addict). Taking the magisterial teaching out of the context of the person who has to deal with his or her own weaknesses, is not very productive, not very charitable, and certainly not very Catholic. It is why we have confessors, who can, one hopes, get to know the penitent (I am a fan of face-to-face confession), and help penitents with their faith walk in the context of individual ability and circumstances.

Agreed, of course. But that’s not the point; the point is that masturbation is taught by God through His Church as a grave sin. We have the duty to believe, obey, and defend this and all teachings, whether we personally accept them or not.

 

[OraLabora]

… was also sexually abused by an older cousin. I have some insight into these matters, thank you.

So do I, sadly. I will keep you in my prayers.

Agreed, of course. But that’s not the point; the point is that masturbation is taught by God through His Church as a grave sin. We have the duty to believe, obey, and defend this and all teachings, whether we personally accept them or not.

No arguments there. I don’t think it’s a case of “personally accepting them”, but wishing for more strength to be able to follow them, and asking for mercy when we can’t.

Too many here say “If I can give it up so can you”, which is hardly helpful.

 

[Lycorth]

So do I, sadly. I will keep you in my prayers.

Thank you, but pray first for those who are still traumatized by their abuse. I’ve been relatively unscarred, praise God.

No arguments there. I don’t think it’s a case of “personally accepting them”, but wishing for more strength to be able to follow them, and asking for mercy when we can’t.

Don’t wish - pray

I understand wishing to be able to avoid it. I tried for years, with little to no success. I can’t fully explain why now of all times in my life I am able to actually go without playing with myself for any length of time. I can only chalk it up to the graces of a just and merciful God being lavished on me.

I pray you and all who need to get the monkey off your backs can do so. Believe me, the pleasure of masturbation in no way can compare to the pleasure of not feeling compelled to masturbate.

Too many here say “If I can give it up so can you”, which is hardly helpful.

No, it isn’t, especially if it isn’t followed up with compassionate advice and absolute truths.

Though, those who say that are right; if X can do it, so can Y. The whole point with that is there really isn’t anything ultimately objective that truly prevents anyone from giving up masturbation, no matter how long they’ve done it. In the end, it all boils down to the force of habit and how the devil toys with our perceptions to make it feel good and necessary.

Prayer, discipline, focus - these all help. Those who wish to offer advice must be as compassionate as they are firm in truth. Bad advice or badly-worded advice will not help suppress sin. I know I need to remember that, myself.

 

[Cashue]

I was learned to not masterbate because of my religion(catholic). I’ve been searching for this answer for about 2 years, when I started, and for the past 2 years, I have been feeling alot of guilt after every time I have masterbated, I am 15 years old. When I google’d if it was a sin or not. The majority said It is not a sin, and i have seen few who say it is. And today, I was researching I was coming across this site. I’ve prayed for the answer multiple signs, but I can’t seem to find it. Hopefully this site, will give me the answer to my prayers. So my question is, is masterbation a sin and is it ok to continue masterbating?

Noel.

It is a serious sin, you must not do it.

 

[Seatuck]

um i dont think its a sin that really might be a man made rule because seriously think about it would god count that as a sin and let us burn in eternal damnnation because we made ourselfs feel good? i dont think he would so i say no its not a sin just a man made thing to keep us down i say feel god and thank god

Your body is, as scripture tells us “fearfully and wonderfully made” by God for a purpose. Your sexual organs as part of your body have a purpose . God has given you this teaching in scripture and through his church for over 2000 years.

 

[chain]

This is not a hard question and it is asked constantly. The answer you believe ultimately lies in what you believe. There is no doubt that it is considered a grave and serious sin by the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You have 2 choices. You can either follow the Catechism of the Church and spend effort understanding it, or rationalize your current actions. The second is know as Theology of the Believer - and is basically the same thing that Eve did.

I will tell you this about my personal history. For the first 40 years of my life, I was a cafeteria catholic - picking what I wanted to do, and rationalizing the rest, all the while telling myself I was a good Catholic. Then I started to study the reasons for the Churches position, and in every case they have been more thought out by generations of holy people than than my selfish and sinful rationalizations. It was not easy stopping an addiction of over 20 years, but necessary and worth it. At least it did not cost my marriage - like it did for my best friend, and I think several others.

---

Ultimately anyone who can rationalize masturbation will have no problem rationalizing pre-marital sex (you love hers, so naturally it can not be a sin), artificial birth control, and if something goes wrong quite a few will rationalize abortion when push comes to shove. For those who make it to marriage, artificial birth control will be as much of a given as using your spouse as sex object. Welcome to the world of sinners who have been there and done that. Masturbation might only be a gateway - but it is one that opens the door for a life of sin, self abuse, and objectifying those you lust.

 

[OraLabora]

Ultimately anyone who can rationalize masturbation will have no problem rationalizing pre-marital sex (you love hers, so naturally it can not be a sin), artificial birth control, and if something goes wrong quite a few will rationalize abortion when push comes to shove. For those who make it to marriage, artificial birth control will be as much of a given as using your spouse as sex object. Welcome to the world of sinners who have been there and done that. Masturbation might only be a gateway - but it is one that opens the door for a life of sin, self abuse, and objectifying those you lust.

I think this is a bit of a stretch. Protestant theologies that allow for masturbation or ABC, do in fact also condemn adultery, pre-marital sex and abortion.

I am not saying that the Protestants are right. I am saying that claiming that rationalizing masturbation leads to rationalization of abortion is quite a leap to make.