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DallasCatholic
Guest
Poor catachesis is one of the major reasons why many people leave the Church.
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SteakNPotatoes
Guest
OT: Nobody is to blame for me leaving the Church except me. I realized the truth and the truth has set me free. But that’s a topic for another thread (or maybe a web site).
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DallasCatholic
Guest
…and yet you spend time responding to questions on a Catholic website…interesting
I will check out your website, realize that your posting was OT also since the OP was asking for a Catholic understanding which yours is not.
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DallasCatholic
Guest
Not much there yet, I’ll check back later. BTW, I too started out Catholic, “thought” myself out of my faith, was “freed” from religon, was an atheist…and now I am back in the Church. You better hurry up and get that site completed before you wind up like me
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SteakNPotatoes
Guest
You never know. I’m not much into burning bridges, so anything could happen.Not much there yet, I’ll check back later. BTW, I too started out Catholic, “thought” myself out of my faith, was “freed” from religon, was an atheist…and now I am back in the Church. You better hurry up and get that site completed before you wind up like me
Anyway, I’ve derailed this thread enough. I gotta get back to work.
Ciao.
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dorothy_smith
Guest
No, it doesn’t make sense completely. You could argue that married people are selfish because they get all the pleasure of sex without any fear of being admonished for it. Whereas, a single person (who has not been lucky enough to have met anyone to marry) has to resist absolutely all temptation to their sexual urges in fear of condemnation.
It is only a thought, but worth considering (at least a bit).
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HopeFull_Mom
Guest
Is there really a seperation between physically and spiritually unhealthy? If our “spirit” is our life force, then how can we say that something spiritually harmful is not in turn physically harmful. If spiritually harmful things do not harm us physically then why do we die? Why do we get old and die even when we live physically healthy lives?
As Catholic’s we believe that the price of the original sin was death. Adam and Eve did something spiritually harmful to themselves which resulted in the eventual decay and death of their physical bodies. We believe that the physical and the spiritual are inseparable.
Our spiritual mistakes do harm us physically. We all die. Luckily, though, we get a second chance through the death of Jesus. If we have kept spiritually healthy then we will be blessed with everlasting physical health and well-being.
If what we do to our spirit effects our physical body then anything spiritually unhealthy is physically unhealthy as well. I haven’t heard of any medical practitioners solving the problem of aging or death.
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Rawb
Guest
Why is masturbation bad?
Because it mocks and blasphemes one of our most deeply held beliefs, a belief in the very nature of God and one of the sacraments of God.
Didn’t know it went that deep, did ya?
I’m talking about The Trinity.
The Father so loved The Son that their love was personified in a very real and literal sense, we know this love as The Holy Spirit. So the love of the Father and Son was completely unrestrained; each gave the other the gift of Their self fully and completely without holding anything back (this is why contraception is also a mortal sin). Through Their love they begat the Holy Spirit.
Mankind has been made to show this same relationship in the Sacrament of Marriage (Holy Orders also fits into this but that’s for another topic). In Marriage the man and woman must give each other to one another fully and without restraint, (Just as The Father and The Son did) and they create a child (Just as the Father and the Son created the Holy Spirit). This is why marriage is a Sacrament and why the Catholic Church is so concerned about sex.
Now, can you see why masturbation is considered sinful, selfish, and a mortal sin? Do you see what I mean about mocking the nature of God?
Because it mocks and blasphemes one of our most deeply held beliefs, a belief in the very nature of God and one of the sacraments of God.
Didn’t know it went that deep, did ya?
I’m talking about The Trinity.The Father so loved The Son that their love was personified in a very real and literal sense, we know this love as The Holy Spirit. So the love of the Father and Son was completely unrestrained; each gave the other the gift of Their self fully and completely without holding anything back (this is why contraception is also a mortal sin). Through Their love they begat the Holy Spirit.
Mankind has been made to show this same relationship in the Sacrament of Marriage (Holy Orders also fits into this but that’s for another topic). In Marriage the man and woman must give each other to one another fully and without restraint, (Just as The Father and The Son did) and they create a child (Just as the Father and the Son created the Holy Spirit). This is why marriage is a Sacrament and why the Catholic Church is so concerned about sex.
Now, can you see why masturbation is considered sinful, selfish, and a mortal sin? Do you see what I mean about mocking the nature of God?
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HopeFull_Mom
Guest
Married people are also called to resist absolutely all sexual temptations to their selfish sexual urges. Marriage does not eliminate the posibility of sexual temptation, it just increases the importance of resisting it. This covers anything from cheating, masturbation, impure thoughts, use of birth control or wrongfully using a spouse for only selfish pleasure.
This is why it is so important for a single person to resist sexual temptation. If you can’t be unselfish while you are single, it doesn’t all of a sudden become easy when you are married. If a person gets into the habit of selfishly fullfilling themselves before marriage they are going to have a much harder time being faithful and generous in this area when they are married.
While you are single you are preparing to be a spouse or a parent. Like an athlete training for an important long distance marathon you have to work hard. Marriage is a marathon, not a skip through the park. I never believed anyone who warned me about the trials of marriage before I was married. I thought,“Not us, we are different. This is going to be perfect.”
LOL
Anyway, almost ten years in, with my sixth baby on the way, I’ve realized it is the marathon, not the skip in the park I thought it was going to be. I’m not saying marriage and family isn’t a blessing. I just wish I had spent more of my single life in proper preparation. I may have been a better wife and mother over the past ten years if I had.
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StCsDavid
Guest
You say you feed your hunger between meals? What if you’re in Church. Do you bring your Big Mac with you into the pew? Likely not. There is a proper time and place to feed yourself, yes? If you’re tired you rest. But do you crawl under your desk as work and take a nap? I doubt it. There is a proper time and place for taking care of that need. Your sexuality is not all that different. It is a gift God has given you. He intends for you to give it to your spouse at the proper time and place. Do you plan to cheat on your wife when you get married? No? So why do you believe it’s okay to cheat on her now? Do you believe sex outside of marriage is moral? No? So why do you believe it’s okay to have sex with yourself? Being a man means accepting responsibility for the gifts God gives you.
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blessedtoo
Guest
Dorothy,
Why would married people be admonished for experiencing pleasure during sex? And who would do the admonishing? If a married couple engage in relations, do not use ABC, and understand that this act is supposed to be about self-giving, they are doing what God intended. Sex is not about self. It is meant to be about giving, and surrendering to eachother and to God’s graces.
If an unmarried person is white-knuckling his/her way through singlehood, it is because they do not have a full understanding of the meaning of sex. The point is not getting pleasure - that’s the by-product of God’s generosity (as it is with eating food). The point is giving oneself completely to one’s spouse.
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wornwheel
Guest
I have not noticed the second portion of the Catechism’s teaching on masturbation in this thread. It says:
“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.”
“Conditions of anxiety” may "“extenuate moral culpability”. This says to me that the nature of each individual must be taken into account when determining the bounds of judgment. If you are in great distress then masturbation may be acceptable. Many teens are in this situation, particularly males. Most do not have the spiritual maturity to challenge this energy into spiritual growth. In these cases, restraining from masturbation out of guilt or repression can lead to internal conflict and away from “Love”, hardening one to the gifts that the church offers.
I think it is imperative that teens understand the full teaching of the Church which includes the extenuating of moral culpability. And that they not internalize the message that they are automatically condemned to hell for masturbation. Masturbation may be the most appropriate course of action.
I was raised in a black and white, sin and guilt environment. Premarital sex and masturbation were the greatest of all sins, on par with murder. I tried to restrain from masturbation in this environment out of guilt. The repression that followed had horrific consequences in my life. I eventually left the church, became agnostic, then Buddhist. It was in Buddhism that I experienced love and began to see the loving foundation of the teachings of the Catholic Church. I have returned to the Catholic Church but with a new perspective. And, yet, every day I see the negative consequences in peoples lives from the guilt and repression that they wear.
Given that the Catechism says “conditions of anxiety” may "“extenuate moral culpability”. I believe that masturbation may be acceptable. If one does masturbate avoid pornography and even fantasizing about women or men. These fantasies objectify others. Relief of physical stress should be the goal and there is nothing wrong with enjoying ones own bodily sensations.
The teachings of the church always present the ideal, as they should. And those ideals are always built on “Love”. But, this fact is often lost on young and old, who are mired in guilt, repression and anger.
My suggestion is to study the teachings of the church and always focus on love. I have decided to retain my sexual energy in my body as energy for my spiritual growth. The goal is love. There is no longer guilt and repression for me. And if the sexual energy does become too much for me to handle I will masturbate knowing that the Church has left digression in its teachings.
Peace and Love… WornWheel
“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.”
“Conditions of anxiety” may "“extenuate moral culpability”. This says to me that the nature of each individual must be taken into account when determining the bounds of judgment. If you are in great distress then masturbation may be acceptable. Many teens are in this situation, particularly males. Most do not have the spiritual maturity to challenge this energy into spiritual growth. In these cases, restraining from masturbation out of guilt or repression can lead to internal conflict and away from “Love”, hardening one to the gifts that the church offers.
I think it is imperative that teens understand the full teaching of the Church which includes the extenuating of moral culpability. And that they not internalize the message that they are automatically condemned to hell for masturbation. Masturbation may be the most appropriate course of action.
I was raised in a black and white, sin and guilt environment. Premarital sex and masturbation were the greatest of all sins, on par with murder. I tried to restrain from masturbation in this environment out of guilt. The repression that followed had horrific consequences in my life. I eventually left the church, became agnostic, then Buddhist. It was in Buddhism that I experienced love and began to see the loving foundation of the teachings of the Catholic Church. I have returned to the Catholic Church but with a new perspective. And, yet, every day I see the negative consequences in peoples lives from the guilt and repression that they wear.
Given that the Catechism says “conditions of anxiety” may "“extenuate moral culpability”. I believe that masturbation may be acceptable. If one does masturbate avoid pornography and even fantasizing about women or men. These fantasies objectify others. Relief of physical stress should be the goal and there is nothing wrong with enjoying ones own bodily sensations.
The teachings of the church always present the ideal, as they should. And those ideals are always built on “Love”. But, this fact is often lost on young and old, who are mired in guilt, repression and anger.
My suggestion is to study the teachings of the church and always focus on love. I have decided to retain my sexual energy in my body as energy for my spiritual growth. The goal is love. There is no longer guilt and repression for me. And if the sexual energy does become too much for me to handle I will masturbate knowing that the Church has left digression in its teachings.
Peace and Love… WornWheel
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PennitentMan
Guest
Thanks for that post…
Honestly, this has only been mentioned to me once before, on this board a few days ago.
Never before that have people even acknowledged the option that there may be even a little leaway on this subject. It’s true that it leaves a lot of guilt in people.
It’d be interesting to see how people will respond though
PM
Honestly, this has only been mentioned to me once before, on this board a few days ago.
Never before that have people even acknowledged the option that there may be even a little leaway on this subject. It’s true that it leaves a lot of guilt in people.
It’d be interesting to see how people will respond though
PM
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TimOliv
Guest
Not being a priest, I am not qualified for this spiritual diagnosis. However, I agree with your assessment that culpability may be minimized. However, though the person “knows it is wrong” the act being a compulsive behavior (perhaps even going as far as considering it a sin) gives us all the more reason to question whether the offender would be in a state of mortal sin. The sin is still grave, but a “slipping up” indicates (to me at least) a loss of control.
When we are in a state of mortal sin, we are not supposed to accept the Eucharist as our mortal sin breaks our communion with God. For those of us with lesser sins, we still maintain a communion with God and the Eucharist strengthens us in our resolve to overcome those sins and prevent mortal sin in the future. I (and just my personal opinion) would say that this person, in temporarily losing control of a compulsive behavior they are attempting to curb out of a desire to strengthen their relationship with God, is still connected to God, and the reception of the Eucharist (coupled with regular confession and increased efforts) would probably serve to spiritually strengthen them.
Once again, my opinion.
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LilyM
Guest
Slow down. Yes there are circumstances that ‘extenuate’ one’s guilt in terms of masturbation, and other sins as well. But look up your dictionary. ‘Extenuate’ doesn’t mean these circumstances remove the guilt completely - it means they lessen it.
This may mean they lessen it to the point where it’s a venial sin. It’s* incredibly* unlikely that they lessen it to the point where it’s no sin at all. One can kill in defence of self or others, one can steal to feed one’s starving family, but there are no similarly compelling justifications that can be trotted out to defend the practice of masturbation.
Believe me, as someone who has had huge struggles with this particular sin, and continues on occasion to struggle with it, it is more than possible with God’s help to at least manage it if not completely oversome it. And even if in some situations it isn’t a mortal sin, we are all obliged to try to the utmost to rid ourselves of venial sin as well as mortal.
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wornwheel
Guest
Actually, I find the catechism a bit unclear in this, in that it says that certain factors “lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.”
The words “or even” imply to me that “extenuate” in this case means more than lessen… perhaps “greatly lessen”?
Masturbation is not the ideal. I think masturbation can be a habitual, selfish act. It can degrade and objectify others. And, there are times when factors do extenuate moral culpability. This is the teaching of the Church.
I see no point in people entering into a cycle of self hate because of masturbation. Particularly if they understand the full teaching of the Church and are focused on striving toward the loving message imbedded in it. This is especially true for young teens.
I do not know how old you are LilyM but I am no longer a teen. In my teens I was not psychologically or spiritually developed enough to understand the purpose of the teaching of the church or how to channel those energies into spiritual growth. I think this is the case for most teen males.
When the message from parents and the church is “masturbation is a sin” and should be avoided at all cost. This ultimately leads to masturbation in the dark, guilt and separation. Teaching in this manner is not an act of love. Perhaps this is the reason for the second portion of the Catechism on this subject.
The words “or even” imply to me that “extenuate” in this case means more than lessen… perhaps “greatly lessen”?
Masturbation is not the ideal. I think masturbation can be a habitual, selfish act. It can degrade and objectify others. And, there are times when factors do extenuate moral culpability. This is the teaching of the Church.
I see no point in people entering into a cycle of self hate because of masturbation. Particularly if they understand the full teaching of the Church and are focused on striving toward the loving message imbedded in it. This is especially true for young teens.
I do not know how old you are LilyM but I am no longer a teen. In my teens I was not psychologically or spiritually developed enough to understand the purpose of the teaching of the church or how to channel those energies into spiritual growth. I think this is the case for most teen males.
When the message from parents and the church is “masturbation is a sin” and should be avoided at all cost. This ultimately leads to masturbation in the dark, guilt and separation. Teaching in this manner is not an act of love. Perhaps this is the reason for the second portion of the Catechism on this subject.
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dylanschrader
Guest
Maybe the difference between an action’s being objectively gravely sinful and the subjective culpability of someone who does that action is not clear.
The Catechism is saying:
The Catechism is saying:
- Masturbation is gravely disordered (thus grave matter, seriously sinful).
- There are factors which can make a person less culpable for committing this sin.
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ElizabethAnne
Guest
HopeFull Mom, I just have to say “great post!” God bless you.
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lumendelumine
Guest
wormwheel,
I think you’re on the right way about this theme, though still not quite there.
What the Catechism is saying holds true for each and every sin: that there may be circumstances that alleviate the gravity of sin. This is true for other mortal sins like suicide (read the CCC passage on that) as well as for every other sin. A person who does not know that something is a sin or is under great duress (like a suicidal person is) is certainly not culpable in the same way as someone who is acting with full knowledge and consent.
I’m sorry to read that you grew up in a very “black and white world” where you “suppressed” your sexual urges and suffered because of that. Because chastity is not at all about “suppression”. It is about love and profiting from God’s grace. It is a positive thing, not negative.
Actually, we can only live chaste lives through God’s grace. Being chaste is not something you “do” - it’s something you allow God to do with you. That was my experience in my own life (I only came to the Catholic Church and became chaste at nearly 26), and it was really amazing how He can work on us… :extrahappy:
So, if I were you, I would not continue thinking about how much you sinned or did not sin when masturbating as a teenager and trying to justify it. If you want to, go to confession about it, then forget it. The past is past.
But God is calling you *now * to experience His amazing gifts through a chaste life. He is calling you to accept the grace of the sacraments, to grow in His love. Chastity is all about love: foremost to God, but also to others and to yourself. It’s one of the most beautiful gifts God has given us.
I would heartily recommend to you to read Christoper West’s Theology of the Body for Beginners. It may have just the answers you are searching for…
God bless you! I will pray for you on your journey in the Catholic Church!
I think you’re on the right way about this theme, though still not quite there.
What the Catechism is saying holds true for each and every sin: that there may be circumstances that alleviate the gravity of sin. This is true for other mortal sins like suicide (read the CCC passage on that) as well as for every other sin. A person who does not know that something is a sin or is under great duress (like a suicidal person is) is certainly not culpable in the same way as someone who is acting with full knowledge and consent.
I’m sorry to read that you grew up in a very “black and white world” where you “suppressed” your sexual urges and suffered because of that. Because chastity is not at all about “suppression”. It is about love and profiting from God’s grace. It is a positive thing, not negative.
Actually, we can only live chaste lives through God’s grace. Being chaste is not something you “do” - it’s something you allow God to do with you. That was my experience in my own life (I only came to the Catholic Church and became chaste at nearly 26), and it was really amazing how He can work on us… :extrahappy:
So, if I were you, I would not continue thinking about how much you sinned or did not sin when masturbating as a teenager and trying to justify it. If you want to, go to confession about it, then forget it. The past is past.
But God is calling you *now * to experience His amazing gifts through a chaste life. He is calling you to accept the grace of the sacraments, to grow in His love. Chastity is all about love: foremost to God, but also to others and to yourself. It’s one of the most beautiful gifts God has given us.
I would heartily recommend to you to read Christoper West’s Theology of the Body for Beginners. It may have just the answers you are searching for…
God bless you! I will pray for you on your journey in the Catholic Church!
W
wjp984
Guest
I think you just agreed with my point of view while trying to refute it. I was going to rebut your stealing example with kleptomania but you already rebutted yourelf with it. I stick by my original statement that I think masturbation is wrong but one can still receive communion as long as they plan on going to confession some time in the future. But I have to hold this opinion since I am not brave enough to abstain from communion when everyone else is receiving.
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