Masturbation and too much Confession?

[copeland45]

Because I struggle with masturbation (like most healthy men) I find myself needing to go to Confession every three to five days.

Question: am I mistaken in thinking that this is a mortal sin? Am I being overly scrupulous?

Everyone’s response is usually “talk to your priest and ask him” Problem is, I’ve had two priests tell me it’s not mortal, and two tell me it is. Do I go for best of five?

I wish the Church would remove the nebulous language from the Catechism on this topic, and the Magisterium would make a definitive statement for all time on whether masturbation is a mortal sin (once you’ve reached the age of sexual/emotional maturity…probably around 18 yrs of age).

As to the details of my own situation, I don’t use pornography, only imagine my wife (she currently cannot have sex), and I’m actively trying to decrease the frequency with which I do this. I’ve tried praying to God to remove ALL urge to do this, but my body is telling me physically --not even sexually-- that it’s bad for me not to do this at least once a week. Science seems to agree. Am I really committing a mortal sin? Whenever I go for days at a time without masturbating, I’m so distracted by the urge that I can’t even pray or read scripture effectively.

 

[mjs1987]

I get mixed messages from priests on this as well. It feels awkward when I go to confession so often and I see so few people at confession yet masses are pretty full around here. Gets me wondering if I just have scruples or if a majority of the adults at mass receive communion unworthily since this is a very common problem that many have. The catechism language is very vague since it says habitual or immaturity can reduce culpability (blame) to a minimum.

 

[lovemyboys]

In my opinion (for what it’s worth), it’s not a mortal sin because you’re having to live with your wife and have that temptation, but never act on your temptation like a normal married man. Technically, you even have grounds for an annulment (not that a decent guy would do that to a woman who cannot physically dtd…) I’d say that you “taking care of yourself” might be keeping you from further sin plus you’re just thinking of your wife and not some other woman.

 

[kage_ar]

I’m going to pray that you misuderstood any priest who told you masturbation was not a sin.

The teaching of the Church is very clear.

 

[Tsion]

JMJ

I think that we need to understand that Church’s opinion trumps other’s. Mother Church says that this is a mortal sin. I struggle with this issue of purity myself. My confessor told me to say the Chaplet of St. Michael when I get the urge…Men’s programs where we are accountable to our peers is very helpful. Now, if you pm me, then we can talk further, I tend to keep in mind the audience here varies and I don’t want a kid under 18 reading details, nor is it appropriate to share details or whathave you as openly. That’s my two cents. I do make myself open for chat over pm to help.

Bottom line:

She says it’s mortal.
The relationship with Father is too valuable to be wasted on wasted seed.

 

[mjs1987]

I’m going to pray that you misuderstood any priest who told you masturbation was not a sin.

The teaching of the Church is very clear.

The teaching of the Church is not very clear. The catechism says that a laundry list of reasons reduces culpability to a minimum. When the catechism says you can hardly blame someone for doing it for a wide range of reasons, it is no surprise that there is a wide range of ideas. The catechism is also very vague on whether viewing pornography is a mortal sin. In fact, the catechism does not even say it explicitly. With the wording of both in the catechism, it is no wonder there is a difference of opinion and interpretation on it.

 

[Elsport1]

Unless you’re going to Confession more than once a week you are definitely not going to frequently. Try very hard to come up with some sorrow for what you have done. I think that you’re a lot better off assuming your masturbation is a mortal sin than assuming it is not.

 

[kage_ar]

The teaching of the Church is not very clear. The catechism says that a laundry list of reasons reduces culpability to a minimum. When the catechism says you can hardly blame someone for doing it for a wide range of reasons, it is no surprise that there is a wide range of ideas. The catechism is also very vague on whether viewing pornography is a mortal sin. In fact, the catechism does not even say it explicitly. With the wording of both in the catechism, it is no wonder there is a difference of opinion and interpretation on it.

The Catechism is a quick reference book.

It gives you the high points, one would then dig deeper into the official teaching documents of the Church and have a good spiritual director to help.

Masturbation.

CCC 2352 the footnotes (138 and 139) send you to the document Persona Humana from the CDF, section 9.

You can read it here vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html

Now for the topic of pornography, remember,

Mortal sin = three things:

It has to be grave, let’s look at the CCC, yep - pornography is grave (bolded so it would stand out easily)

You have to know it is sinful.

You have to do it with intent (to have a pop up ad come into your screen is not a mortal sin, to click that link is)

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

copeland, and mjs1987,

I think in both of your posts you indicate that masturbation is (somewhat) normal, healthy, commonplace, and almost irresistible. But that’s not the case at all.

It might seem normal and commonplace – but that is because we live in a common place. Nearly every society is hypersexed and supersaturated with sexual imagery. And, we are told over and over that it is impossible and unhealthy not to seek sexual release – but that just isn’t the case.

It can feel irresistible because a) it involves a powerful faculty b) that faculty is usually overstimulated in our society c) the message to indulge it is an incessant drumbeat in our ears and d) habits can be like iron bars, and difficult to break.

The deck is stacked against you. But if someone wants to be rid of it, and they fight against it manfully, they can be free of it. There are men – normally and healthy men – who are free from it.

The good news is that the iron bars of habit don’t have to be a cage that limits our freedom. Those iron bars can be our bones, our spine – our tools for work. Habit can work for you or against you.

All the best to you copeland. Hang in there.
VC

 

[Argh]

The teaching of the Church is not very clear. The catechism says that a laundry list of reasons reduces culpability to a minimum. When the catechism says you can hardly blame someone for doing it for a wide range of reasons, it is no surprise that there is a wide range of ideas. The catechism is also very vague on whether viewing pornography is a mortal sin. In fact, the catechism does not even say it explicitly. With the wording of both in the catechism, it is no wonder there is a difference of opinion and interpretation on it.

That last section of the Catechism always makes me just throw up my arms, but all other well-grounded material that I’ve seen says that even though it may not be mortal sin in a particular case, it should still be confessed before receiving communion.

Courage, the Catholic organization which normally attends to our brothers and sisters who struggle with another disordered action, has good advice on the subject, I think:
couragerc.net/PIPMasturbation.html

 

[mjs1987]

The Catechism is a quick reference book.

It gives you the high points, one would then dig deeper into the official teaching documents of the Church and have a good spiritual director to help.

Masturbation.

CCC 2352 the footnotes (138 and 139) send you to the document Persona Humana from the CDF, section 9.

You can read it here vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html

Now for the topic of pornography, remember,

Mortal sin = three things:

It has to be grave, let’s look at the CCC, yep - pornography is grave (bolded so it would stand out easily)

You have to know it is sinful.

You have to do it with intent (to have a pop up ad come into your screen is not a mortal sin, to click that link is)

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

Where in the catechism does it saying viewing it is a mortal? I do not see that written there clearly. It explains why it is bad but does not say in as many words who it is sinful for and if it is mortal in that case. My point is not that isnt mortal but I am correct in saying this lack of clarity is why there is such a difference of opinion because the catechism, which is available on the official church website and approved by the church, does not clearly say “viewing pornography is grave matter”. It is the same for masturbation. When the catechism says that culpability is for many circumstances is minimal it means that you are pretty much not to blame for it. The question becomes if you are not completely to blame for it, why would God send you to hell for something that isnt entirely your fault? The point is that the church puts out the catechism and endorses it yet it is very vague and many priests use this vagueness to give wrong and false answers to people. That is my point and I am correct on it otherwise priests wouldnt be giving so many different views on it.

 

[kage_ar]

Where in the catechism does it saying viewing it is a mortal? I do not see that written there clearly. It explains why it is bad but does not say in as many words who it is sinful for and if it is mortal in that case. My point is not that isnt mortal but I am correct in saying this lack of clarity is why there is such a difference of opinion because the catechism, which is available on the official church website and approved by the church, does not clearly say “viewing pornography is grave matter”. It is the same for masturbation. When the catechism says that culpability is for many circumstances is minimal it means that you are pretty much not to blame for it. The question becomes if you are not completely to blame for it, why would God send you to hell for something that isnt entirely your fault? The point is that the church puts out the catechism and endorses it yet it is very vague and many priests use this vagueness to give wrong and false answers to people. That is my point and I am correct on it otherwise priests wouldnt be giving so many different views on it.

One more time, the Catechism says pornography is grave matter.

This means that pornography in any way/shape/form meets one of the criteria for mortal sin. If you KNOW it is grave matter and you do it on purpose, then, you have met all the conditions for mortal sin.

About masturbation, if you read the full document (in the link I provided) you will see that it is clear.

Why do a few priests disagree? They are fallible and are under constant attack from Satan. Those priests need our prayers!

 

[mjs1987]

One more time, the Catechism says pornography is grave matter.

This means that pornography in any way/shape/form meets one of the criteria for mortal sin. If you KNOW it is grave matter and you do it on purpose, then, you have met all the conditions for mortal sin.

About masturbation, if you read the full document (in the link I provided) you will see that it is clear.

Why do a few priests disagree? They are fallible and are under constant attack from Satan. Those priests need our prayers!

The catechism certainly does not make it clear that pornography means any way/shape/form. Where does it say that? If thats what it means then it should be spelled out. Just like the document you linked on masturbation. It is misleading and leading people to sin when they put out such wordings since it can be construed to be that these things are not mortal. If the church spelled it out in clear letters than there wouldnt be so much debate and problems with differing opinions.

Priests disagree because catechesis and teaching of priests is poor. The theology taught in many seminaries is poor. Is it any wonder why most sermons that I hear are uninspired and uninteresting? They cannot give what they do not know. You can blame it on Satan and he certainly has contributed a lot but the church is very poor in catechizing and teaching priests proper theology and the reasons behind the theology. The biblical teaching is very poor. I have NEVER heard a priest discuss on Palm Sunday the meaning behind “My God! Why have you forsaken me!” and the linkage to psalm 22. St Augustine said that if you do not know philosophy or theology well, you better rely on scripture. Many priests have little knowledge of this and many more are poor at communicating Catholic principles in sermons. This is where the church needs to change. It needs to better catechize priests on scripture. Simply by doing this, you will change a lot of problems in understanding things.

 

[kage_ar]

The catechism certainly does not make it clear that pornography means any way/shape/form. Where does it say that? If thats what it means then it should be spelled out.

Here is the Catechism quote again, it clearly says pornography is a grave offense.

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

 

[mjs1987]

Here is the Catechism quote again, it clearly says pornography is a grave offense.

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

Where does it say “viewing pornography” is a grave offense, in those exact words? It doesnt say it in those exact words. Pornography is a mortal sin, there should be no doubt left at all to whether it is or not mortal. The definition is very vague about what constitutes pornography and only mentions viewers as victims of pornography. It simply says what it is and that it is grave matter. It doesnt define in clear language when it is a sin and for who. If we are to take the mention of the word pornography to mean all instances, then it should say it, dont you think? The stakes are heaven and hell. There should be a list clearly stated of which sins are mortal and which are not. No complicated theological justifications or exceptions that are unclearly worded and explained like the culpability part of masturbation. If the church actually posted a list of which sins are mortal and which are venial instead of using criteria for mortal and venial it would make it a lot simpler and would leave priests that are in error out of leading people into error. Why does the church not spell it out in clear language? It would seem that with souls at stake this would be a high priority.

 

[mjs1987]

If there were clear lists of what is mortal and venial, there would not even be a need to ask a priest if a sin is mortal or not. We wouldnt even need to have these discussions. With souls at stake, there should be no room wiggle room whatsoever for interpretation. Without a doubt there is. If there was a clear list, it could be published and handed out during mass and an announcement made during or before mass to review the list and if you have done something on the list to get to confession before taking communion unworthily. Why this is not done I will never know. It should be though.

The fact that people frequently come to CAF and ask about whether certain sins are mortal or not is proof that the church does a poor job making is absolutely clear what sins are mortal and what the seriousness of this is.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

From the Catechism (Compendium):

492 Grave sins against chastity (. . .): adultery, masturbation, fornication, pornography, prostitution, rape, and homosexual acts.

VC

 

[mjs1987]

From the Catechism (Compendium):

VC

Again, it simply says grave matter. It does not say mortal sin. And when you look up each one of those sins, the explanation for it gives several loopholes. Like for masturbation there is the minimal culpability clause. Unless you dig deeper into it or understand exactly what they are talking about it leaves room for interpretation. The lack of clarity and a lack of defined list of ALL mortal sins in ones place regardless of the commandment broken is why people are confused about what they are doing is right or wrong. This and poor catechesis are why there is such a problem with Catholics going to communion in the state of mortal sin and never going to confession. If confession lines are to be believed, only old people and a few token younger people ever commit mortal sins. People go to mass in large numbers but they are not given a strong message of why they need to be at mass and what they should be doing and how they can integrate Catholic virtues into their daily life. This starts with priests that are well catechized in scripture and apologetics and can communicate these things.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Again, it simply says grave matter. It does not say mortal sin.

Hi mjs,

It says grave sin, not grave matter, and grave sin is another name for mortal sin.

Its describing actions that are objective mortal sins. Whether or not something is an actual mortal sin depends on the factors that have been mentioned before: sufficient reflection and knowledge of the gravity.

VC

 

[mjs1987]

Hi mjs,

It says grave sin, not grave matter, and grave sin is another name for mortal sin.

Its describing actions that are objective mortal sins. Whether or not something is an actual mortal sin depends on the factors that have been mentioned before: sufficient reflection and knowledge of the gravity.

VC

My point was that these sins have confusing and vague explanations that can change the nature of the sin. Masturbation lists 5 or 6 things that reduce culpability to a minimum but you have to dig further to get any further explanation of it. At face value, it would seem that if you have a habitual or psychological condition that causes it then it is not mortal sin. Pornography as explain says that pornography is producing porn to be viewed by a third party and says that is it against the dignity of all parties without actually saying what part of pornography is grave, just the term pornography. I do not think it should be so vague in the explanation of the sins since some priests take it to mean that these things are not mortal. This should not be a matter of interpretation but the way it is written in a church document that explains it makes it that way.