Masturbation and too much Confession?

[Elizabeth502]

But in the vast majority of cases, grave matter is mortally sinful as well, because only ignorance (never read the CCC, got opposite instruction from a priest or catechist) would reduce culpability, or the lack of free will, such as someone forced you at gunpoint, etc. Weakness in a younger person or a mentally ill person can in some cases reduce or eliminate culpability, but merely the fact that the act is being repeated, with the individual’s full knowledge, over and over, rises to the level of responsibility to bring it to confession, at the very least.

Temptations, even strong temptations, do not destroy our free will, nor rise in themselves to the level of compulsions. It’s always so interesting to me that it’s only masturbation (no other sin) for which a multitude of excuses and rationalizations get multiplied weekly on CAF – despite how equally tempting and habitual other sins are or can become.

Some women are tempted 10 or 20 times a day to gossip in a destructive way about someone they dislike, or has injured them, but the frequency of temptation and the strength of the urge in no way reduces the severity of calumny, slander, and detraction.

There are men who have difficulty resisting the fiery urge to “make” a woman from their workplaces who look seductive, maybe even dress seductively. Does the fact that she is/ they are tempting (maybe even deliberately so) reduce his culpability, should he engage in fornication or adultery? Get real, folks. Listen to yourselves.

There are also men who struggle with self-control over their temptations to haul off and hit someone (male or female) who provokes them. Do we tell them, because they lack self-control, that they have less culpability? Not in Catholic moral teaching, we don’t. And even in the secular arena, such men often suffer criminal repercussions for that, with part of the sentence being assignment to Anger Management classes What’s the assumption? That he can’t control himself? No. The very fact that there are Anger Management classes is a statement that anger is within everyone’s control.

The more one masturbates, the harder it is to be objective about it, the easier it is to rationalize it (as being beyond one’s control and thus beyond one’s culpability), the harder it is to stop it, and especially – the more one’s vision about it is clouded. Why? Because it’s a mortal sin, and all mortal sin blinds us, and all mortal sin makes us more vulnerable to more mortal sin. The devil lives in our sin. By sinning, we invite him into our consciousness and make ourselves prey to his lies, his deceptions, including self-deception.

Here’s the real test, and all rationalizers on CAF fail this one: If you find it so innocent and out of your control, you should have no problem going into the confessional and mentioning it casually as something that’s “not really a sin” (but “only” grave matter), and that maybe you just need the priest’s counseling about it to avoid the supposed fault, temptation, or venial sin. But no one on CAF who opens these threads wants to do that, because deep down inside, on the moral law written on our hearts, we all know the truth about this practice. Rather, posters want anonymous forum participants to absolve them of their sin in substitute for a genuine confession and the genuine, difficult, courageous step of changing their private lives.

 

[mjs1987]

But in the vast majority of cases, grave matter is mortally sinful as well, because only ignorance (never read the CCC, got opposite instruction from a priest or catechist) would reduce culpability, or the lack of free will, such as someone forced you at gunpoint, etc. Weakness in a younger person or a mentally ill person can in some cases reduce or eliminate culpability, but merely the fact that the act is being repeated, with the individual’s full knowledge, over and over, rises to the level of responsibility to bring it to confession, at the very least.

Temptations, even strong temptations, do not destroy our free will, nor rise in themselves to the level of compulsions. It’s always so interesting to me that it’s only masturbation (no other sin) for which a multitude of excuses and rationalizations get multiplied weekly on CAF – despite how equally tempting and habitual other sins are or can become.

Some women are tempted 10 or 20 times a day to gossip in a destructive way about someone they dislike, or has injured them, but the frequency of temptation and the strength of the urge in no way reduces the severity of calumny, slander, and detraction.

There are men who have difficulty resisting the fiery urge to “make” a woman from their workplaces who look seductive, maybe even dress seductively. Does the fact that she is/ they are tempting (maybe even deliberately so) reduce his culpability, should he engage in fornication or adultery? Get real, folks. Listen to yourselves.

There are also men who struggle with self-control over their temptations to haul off and hit someone (male or female) who provokes them. Do we tell them, because they lack self-control, that they have less culpability? Not in Catholic moral teaching, we don’t. And even in the secular arena, such men often suffer criminal repercussions for that, with part of the sentence being assignment to Anger Management classes What’s the assumption? That he can’t control himself? No. The very fact that there are Anger Management classes is a statement that anger is within everyone’s control.

The more one masturbates, the harder it is to be objective about it, the easier it is to rationalize it (as being beyond one’s control and thus beyond one’s culpability), the harder it is to stop it, and especially – the more one’s vision about it is clouded. Why? Because it’s a mortal sin, and all mortal sin blind us, and all mortal sin makes us more vulnerable to more mortal sin. The devil lives in our sin. By sinning, we invite him into our consciousness and make ourselves prey to his lies, his deceptions, including self-deception.

Here’s the real test, and all rationalizers on CAF fail this one: If you find it so innocent and out of your control, you should have no problem going into the confessional and mentioning it casually as something that’s “not really a sin” (but “only” grave matter), and that maybe you just need the priest’s counseling about it to avoid the supposed fault, temptation, or venial sin. But no one on CAF who opens these threads wants to do that, because deep down inside, on the moral law written on our hearts, we all know the truth about this practice. Rather, posters want anonymous forum participants to absolve them of their sin in substitute for a genuine confession and the genuine, difficult, courageous step of changing their private lives.

I never argued that is wasnt a mortal sin. In fact, I believe it is. My point was that both priests and church documents on it are vague. My apologetics class used the CCC. If the CCC is not very good then my entire class at a conservative Opus Dei high school was taught in error on these things since passing apologetics in senior year was to memorize verbatim parts of the catechism. Ive had priests tell me that mortal sins do not exist and that masturbation isnt a mortal sin. Others say it is. This confusion is why people have trouble understanding why sins are mortal or not. That is why people come here and try to rationalize it. They see their friends doing it and wonder what is so bad about it. They are not well catechized. If you change the catechesis of the laity and the uninspiring and poorly catechized priests, you will see a greater understanding of what sins are mortal and greater attendance at confession. It is very embarrassing when I go to confession every week and I am the only one my age there and in some cases the only one there at all every week. It gives me the feeling that either I am just scrupulous or very few people have this problem. Judging by the numbers such as the amount of Catholic school girls that are promiscuous and college drinking parties, I think I am not the only that has grave sins to confess.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Ive had priests tell me that mortal sins do not exist and that masturbation isnt a mortal sin. Others say it is. This confusion is why people have trouble understanding why sins are mortal or not. That is why people come here and try to rationalize it. They see their friends doing it and wonder what is so bad about it. They are not well catechized.

But now that you are properly catechized, you are not confused about it, so there is nothing “ambiguous” to discuss. And I’m not focusing just on you, but on the myriad posters on this and countless other similar CAF threads which bring up the same old “didn’t know it was a sin” excuse. Because, you see, after other posters cite the CCC (such as has been done here), the questioning posters revert to their former poor catechesis as an excuse to continue the practice (or not confess it as a past unconfessed sin). I don’t care that it was once poorly taught, or ambiguously taught. Once a Catholic has been corrected, he or she then has full knowledge, which is one of the primary ingredients of mortal sin, not “grave matter.” And yet over and over, posters once they are provided full knowledge, continue to protest that possibly it’s not a sin because some lay friend or some errant priest once told them the opposite. So even if they could convince themselves, or convince me, that the 1400 previous times they did it, it wasn’t a sin, they sure as heck know on the 1401st time that there’s no doubt about its sinfulness.

We’re not talking about high school comments about everybody doing it, or catechesis of the 1970’s. It’s 2010 now. The CCC is available on the internet. If posters can open threads here, they can keyboard and they can read. Thus, they bear the full responsiblity to inform their consciences, and the very fact that so many do not, but seek excuses from discussion forum participants, who confirm them in their sin,is in itself frankly a mortal sin.

I’m genuinely sorry and sympathetic for your embarrassment in the confession line, and your loneliness about that. But you have to stop being concerned about who is not in the confession line, and be glad that you are. It will bring you graces to fight the good fight.

 

[mjs1987]

But now that you are properly catechized, you are not confused about it, so there is nothing “ambiguous” to discuss. And I’m not focusing just on you, but on the myriad posters on this and countless other similar CAF threads which bring up the same old “didn’t know it was a sin” excuse. Because, you see, after other posters cite the CCC (such as has been done here), the questioning posters revert to their former poor catechesis as an excuse to continue the practice (or not confess it as a past unconfessed sin). I don’t care that it was once poorly taught, or ambiguously taught. Once a Catholic has been corrected, he or she then has full knowledge, which is one of the primary ingredients of mortal sin, not “grave matter.” And yet over and over, posters once they are provided full knowledge, continue to protest that possibly it’s not a sin because some lay friend or some errant priest once told them the opposite. So even if they could convince themselves, or convince me, that the 1400 previous times they did it, it wasn’t a sin, they sure as heck know on the 1401st time that there’s no doubt about its sinfulness.

We’re not talking about high school comments about everybody doing it, or catechesis of the 1970’s. It’s 2010 now. The CCC is available on the internet. If posters can open threads here, they can keyboard and they can read. Thus, they bear the full responsiblity to inform their consciences, and the very fact that so many do not, but seek excuses from discussion forum participants, who confirm them in their sin,is in itself frankly a mortal sin.

I’m genuinely sorry and sympathetic for your embarrassment in the confession line, and your loneliness about that. But you have to stop being concerned about who is not in the confession line, and be glad that you are. It will bring you graces to fight the good fight.

You made my point for me. The CCC is not proper for finding mortal sins yet you cite it as a catechesis tool. The CCC is bad for catechesis and it should not be on the RCC website and not used to find or teach which sins are mortal or not because it is vague on what sins are mortal or not. If someone were to read the CCC like you suggest they would see a loophole for masturbation that is not very clear on what the loophole means as far as whether it is still a mortal sin and a very vague definition and explanation of pornography. The CCC needs to be updated or replaced by something that doesnt have the problems that it has. If it is bad why hasnt the church updated or removed it from its own website?

 

[aspirant]

I struggle with masturbation… am I mistaken in thinking that this is a mortal sin?

It is always gravely wrong. If you know what it is wrong (which you do) and you deliberately choose to do it, it is a mortal sin.

I wish the Church would remove the nebulous language from the Catechism on this topic, and the Magisterium would make a definitive statement for all time on whether masturbation is a mortal sin

There is no doubt that the Church teaches it is gravely wrong. The Church cannot say that it is always and everywhere a mortal sin because other conditions must be met in order for it to be a mortal sin: (1) knowledge that it is wrong and (2) deliberate consent. Whether those conditions are present depends on the person and his circumstances.

If one knows that masturbation is wrong (one can hardly claim ignorance after reading this thread) and one consciously and personally chooses to do it (e.g. one is not asleep, no one is threatening to harm one’s kids unless it is done, etc.), then the conditions for mortal sin are met.

I’m actively trying to decrease the frequency with which I do this.

Good. Keep working on this. You can do it. Acts of self-denial in other matters and acts of charity can be a big help. I also strongly recommend studying the Church’s teaching on sexuality. This would be an excellent place to start.

Whenever I go for days at a time without masturbating, I’m so distracted by the urge that I can’t even pray or read scripture effectively.

Then do something else, preferably in public. Go jogging. Make dinner. Wash the dishes.

Technically, you even have grounds for an annulment

Nothing that’s been said on this thread suggests grounds for annulment.

Again, it simply says grave matter. It does not say mortal sin.

Correct. It does not say “mortal sin” because it cannot. In order for an act to be a mortal sin, two other conditions must be met: (1) knowledge that the act is wrong and (2) deliberate personal consent to the act. See here and here. If all three conditions are met, the sin is mortal.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

You made my point for me. The CCC is not proper for finding mortal sins yet you cite it as a catechesis tool. The CCC is bad for catechesis and it should not be on the RCC website and not used to find or teach which sins are mortal or not because it is vague on what sins are mortal or not. If someone were to read the CCC like you suggest they would see a loophole for masturbation that is not very clear on what the loophole means as far as whether it is still a mortal sin and a very vague definition and explanation of pornography. The CCC needs to be updated or replaced by something that doesnt have the problems that it has. If it is bad why hasnt the church updated or removed it from its own website?

The CCC tells us which sins are objectively grave or not but it is up to the person to determine in committing that grave sin, if it was actually mortal based on the knowledge of themselves and the situation they were in. In the end, it comes to down to one’s conscience, although it is tempting to rationalize our sins that we have affection for.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Post 24:

No.

All one needs is the definition of grave matter. Because rarely when one engages in grave matter does one not know it is grave. {“full knowledge”) Even less often will one not have free will when performing an action, thought, or word that is grave matter. And those 3 elements are the only elements needed for mortal sin. Fourthly, once one is confirmed, and even later, after one is adult, the excuses not to inform one’s own conscience by reading several sources and questioning – not lay discussion forum participants – but Catholic sources, plural, in print and in person – cease to provide the rationalization for a lack of full knowledge. That works when one is 4 or maybe even 14.

People in the First World are not illiterate, not without independence to inquire of authorities, and not without education which provides the critical reasoning necessary to connect the dots – allowing one to understand that 1 + 1 + 1 = the magic 3 (above). Poor catechesis at one point or several points in one’s former life is not an excuse for present ignorance, let alone present rationalization.

There will not be a list of mortal sins in the CCC, because it’s a theological document, and theology deals with theory more than practical examples. Actual examinations of conscience (available at thousands of parish websites in this country – if you can find CAF you can find an Examen on a website of one of your local parishes, let alone on other Catholic sites) list specific sins, and more specifically state that masturbation is a mortal sin, under the Sixth Commandment. I have never found a Catholic Examen that did not unambiguously state masturbation as a mortal sin, not just grave matter.

To buy the ignorance excuse, it would have to be true that the inquirer had no access to current Catholic resources in print or electronically, no access to Catholic priests who gave the subject of masturbation more than a shrug, and/or was illiterate. Everyone who posts on CAF has sufficient ability to reason, sufficient access to more than one resource, access to Catholic examinations of conscience, and access to a confessional.

If the inquirer is not mentally retarded, not a young child, not living in a Third World in a state of illiteracy & ignorance, not acting out in a true dream (true sleep state), chances are about 99.9% that the masturbation is a mortal sin. How much more explicit does one need to be to satisfy the unusual requirement that masturbation must be more clearly and repeatedly classified as mortal than any other obviously mortal sins, such as the other ones against the 6th commandment, not to mention all the other commandments.

You protesters really stretch credibility.

 

[mjs1987]

The CCC tells us which sins are objectively grave or not but it is up to the person to determine in committing that grave sin, if it was actually mortal based on the knowledge of themselves and the situation they were in. In the end, it comes to down to one’s conscience, although it is tempting to rationalize our sins that we have affection for.

Then what are we to make of this line from the catechism on masturbation: “To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.” To me this says that it may not be a grave sin (the church is moving away from mortal sin because mortal sin doesnt leave room for wiggling) and in fact venial due to these factors. For pornography, it does not address viewing it at all and what the cultural implications are. For example, many these days do not consider swimsuit magazines to be porn. Its not just a question for Catholics but non-Catholics. All these grave sins are objectively evil yet many do not believe it. Are we to believe that for them these things arent grave sins simply because they do not know it is? Then you can say for them killing somebody is not a mortal sin because they did not know. This makes the knowledge part relative. Consent can be relative as well. So what does this all mean for non Catholics? Does Catholic morality apply to them and how does it impact their salvation? For non-Catholics, adultery and abortion as well as ABC are not universally seen and preached as grave sins that will send you to hell. Yet the church teaches that they cannot do these things if they want to be saved outside the church.

 

[aspirant]

 

[Elizabeth502]

To me this says that it may not be a grave sin (the church is moving away from mortal sin because mortal sin doesnt leave room for wiggling) and in fact venial due to these factors. For pornography, it does not address viewing it at all and what the cultural implications are. For example, many these days do not consider swimsuit magazines to be porn. Its not just a question for Catholics but non-Catholics. All these grave sins are objectively evil yet many do not believe it.

We’re not talking about non-Catholics! Wow, the devil is surely winning here: all this verbal subterfuge. It’s ***Catholics, Catholics ***who bear the responsibility to examine their consciences, to seek legitimate, official enlightenment on these issues (not say to themselves, to God, or in the confessional – “but, Father, a CAF poster with a screename of ____ told me it might be all right because I might have the force of habit”).

Thank you guys, for confirming me in different sins which I have acquired by force of habit! The only difference is, I cannot deceive myself that force of habit excuses hurting someone’s reputation because I might be used to doing it, overwhelmingly tempted to do it, have “legitimate excuse” to do it, have a certain affective immaturity, or convince myself that such actions are venial.

“Bless me Father for I have sinned. I took my secretary to Motel 8 but dang if it wasn’t force of habit! Further, I didn’t have full knowledge because there’s some ambiguity about the conditions of mortal sin. Maybe I felt forced (not acting in free will) because temptations got the better of me. She’s the one who forced me by dressing the way she dresses.”

The situations which remove grave matter from mortal sin are the exceptions, not the rule.

 

[mjs1987]

We’re not talking about non-Catholics! Wow, the devil is surely winning here: all this verbal subterfuge. It’s ***Catholics, Catholics ***who bear the responsibility to examine their consciences, to seek legitimate, official enlightenment on these issues (not say to themselves, to God, or in the confessional – “but, Father, a CAF poster with a screename of ____ told me it might be all right because I mgiht have the force of habit”).

Thank you guys, for confirming me in different sins which I have acquired by force of habit! The only difference is, I cannot deceive myself that force of habit excuses hurting someone’s reputation because I might be used to doing it, overwhelmingly tempted to do it, have “legitimate excuse” to do it, have a certain affective immaturity, or convince myself that such actions are venial.

“Bless me Father for I have sinned. I took my secretary to Motel 8 but dang if it wasn’t force of habit! Further, I didn’t have full knowledge because there’s some ambiguity about the conditions of mortal sin. Maybe I felt forced (not acting in free will) because temptations got the better of me. She’s the one who forced me by dressing the way she dresses.”

The situations which remove grave matter from mortal sin are the exceptions, not the rule.

The Church says it.

 

[mjs1987]

I will repeat: To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.

This means that for masturbation, force of habit is a factor that can make the sin not a grave sin. It mentions nothing of adultery. If this is not true then why does the church teach this?

 

[mjs1987]

If the CCC is merely a theological document, then why does it even mention loopholes for this sin but for no other sin? Why bother? Especially when those loopholes are ambiguous and change the nature of the sin.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I will repeat: To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.

This means that for masturbation, force of habit is a factor that can make the sin not a grave sin. It mentions nothing of adultery. If this is not true then why does the church teach this?

Because the habit of masturbation can be particularly pronounced in the very chronologically immature person. But the CCC was written as an authoritative document for many umbrella purposes, mostly as an intellectual reference, not an everyday handbook (ha – no pun intended). So all the arguments you trotted out still do not conquer this fact: confirmed Catholics and adult Catholics, whatever their previous training, and however ambiguous they believe any particular document about sin to be, have an obligation to inform their consciences and to keep their consciences informed. That is especially true if one (correctly or incorrectly) perceives discrepancies between, among Catholic sources. This means that if someone who has acquired the habit of masturbating (notice that I said ‘acquired’, which implies consent; I didn’t say ‘forced’; we acquire habits by free will) becomes confused by inner doubts or by external sources as to whether the habit is gravely sinful – that person has the mortal obligation to approach a priest — CCC in one hand, Catholic Examination of Conscience in the other – and demand a reconciliation of the two. (They’re not really at odds, if one is being honest, one understands, again, that the CCC is focusing on the unusual exception, whereas the Examen is focusing on the overwhelming rule.)

You don’t get a break on this one.

 

[Elizabeth502]

If the CCC is merely a theological document, then why does it even mention loopholes for this sin but for no other sin? Why bother? Especially when those loopholes are ambiguous and change the nature of the sin.

Asked and answered.

 

[mjs1987]

When dealing with masturbation, it is so prevalent today that the exceptions are the rule. The temptations make for it to be easier to acquire the habit and many that do it do it habitually. It is the acquisition of habit with the culture of sex that we are in that are the extenuating circumstances that the catechism mentions that make masturbation for most people to not be a grave sin. It has to be otherwise very few people will make it heaven. The church teaches that you cannot get to heaven in the state of mortal sin. Very few go to confession to confess this sin yet studies have shown that 60 to as high as 80% of the general population do it regularly. This either means that many if not most Catholics as well as non-Catholics are going to lose their salvation over this or cultural norms help to eliminate and reduce the gravity of the sin.

 

[Musicadmirer]

When dealing with masturbation, it is so prevalent today that the exceptions are the rule. The temptations make for it to be easier to acquire the habit and many that do it do it habitually. It is the acquisition of habit with the culture of sex that we are in that are the extenuating circumstances that the catechism mentions that make masturbation for most people to not be a grave sin. It has to be otherwise very few people will make it heaven. The church teaches that you cannot get to heaven in the state of mortal sin. Very few go to confession to confess this sin yet studies have shown that 60 to as high as 80% of the general population do it regularly. This either means that many if not most Catholics as well as non-Catholics are going to lose their salvation over this or cultural norms help to eliminate and reduce the gravity of the sin.

Wow, 60 to 80 percent is a big number, but that isn’t so hard to believe since most adults and an increasing number of teenagers have had sex.

I will say that everyone is born with a conscience, however flawed it may get later in life due to the individuals’ free will. Even a person lacking maturity has an inkling that what they’re doing is wrong.

We all have guardian angels that nudge us when needed however subtle or forceful, to do the right thing. They are the lifeline that God gave to us.

 

[mjs1987]

From the catechism: 1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

To me, the external pressures here is the culture that we live in. The culture is what drives the current problems we have with masturbation and pornography. When these documents came out, they could not foresee the world which we live in today. We are likely in a place as bad or worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. I think the circumstances of the times we live in help to extenuate the circumstances for this and other sins because the pressure and temptation is very high. For example, a high amount of Catholic school girls are sexually active according to another thread. Many of these if not most will never go to confession. Will these girls all be condemned for the sin of adultery or will there be extenuating circumstances should they die and not confess?

 

[mjs1987]

Wow, 60 to 80 percent is a big number, but that isn’t so hard to believe since most adults and an increasing number of teenagers have had sex.

I will say that everyone is born with a conscience, however flawed it may get later in life due to the individuals’ free will. Even a person lacking maturity has an inkling that what they’re doing is wrong.

We all have guardian angels that nudge us when needed however subtle or forceful, to do the right thing. They are the lifeline that God gave to us.

There are a number of studies on this. You can google them if you wish. In all the studies, there is a huge gap between women and men in terms of prevalence. For men at least, this shows a very bad pattern.

 

[mjs1987]

Wow, 60 to 80 percent is a big number, but that isn’t so hard to believe since most adults and an increasing number of teenagers have had sex.

I will say that everyone is born with a conscience, however flawed it may get later in life due to the individuals’ free will. Even a person lacking maturity has an inkling that what they’re doing is wrong.

We all have guardian angels that nudge us when needed however subtle or forceful, to do the right thing. They are the lifeline that God gave to us.

Im talking about masturbation prevalence, not sex.