Masturbation: I think I fell, but I'm not sure. =(

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onthenarrowpath said:
Is it remotely possible for an agnostic to come to a forum devoted to Catholicism and post with a little more respect? Why do you feel the need to hurl insults? Do you somehow live to do that, as if your very soul is nourished by unleasing venomous attacks on others? Does it give you great pleasure to demean others?

You need to grow up. If you don’t accept Catholic beliefs, at least have the common decency to respect them when you come to a Catholic website. I’m amazed the moderating staff here allows you to continue posting the things that you do. It is incredibly disheartening to me. :mad:
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I mean what I say in all true earnestness. If I lead you through this picture, can you even imagine the God that you’re suggesting?

God - that which no higher or greater thing can be conceived - creator of everything in the universe - vast solar systems - force behind intricate molecular activity and coding - knows every thing that is or ever could be - wants for nothing because he is omnipotent - feels no alarm or surprise because he knows everything - wrath is kindled when boy spills seed

Be honest with me. Besides what you’ve learned about Religion through the agents of socialization - does that not puzzle you, at least on some level? Honestly…

I feel so bad when people are in a lather - rife with guilt over something that their body’s are hardwired to do. If there was ever any inclination that we ought to subdue these natural urges, it should have been built into us. Can you conceive of a God who creates people ready to struggle in their own nature - and fraught with terror over the consequences? Surely this must not speak to *some *aspect of your reasoning.
 
Umm. Last time I checked this wasn’t meant to be a debate about whether or masturbation is okay. It was to help inform this kid on mortal sin so he can detirmine his culpability. Start a new thread or revive one of the other masturbation debate theads.
 
Whether or not masturbation is a sin is relevent to culpability.
 
Voice_of_Reason said:
Whether or not masturbation is a sin is relevent to culpability.
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You’re debating from a outside point a view. This kid is Catholic, and in the Catholic Church, masturbation is taught as a grave matter, no if, ands, or buts.
 
Just because he’s partial to a certain range of answers doesn’t mean I’m going to lie to him. I genuinely think there’s nothing wrong with it. I think people should be privy to such secrets looming outside of their Religion.
 
I know why the Church says it is wrong. And I understand why the Church says it is wrong. It is using what God gave you for the wrong reasons.

But like I said before, I kind of agree with Voice of Reason…To an extent. I believe that masturbation is wrong…But a mortal sin? That just seems too much. Killing someone is mortal. Blasphemy is mortal. But putting masturbation on the same level as taking a human life? Really?

But I guess that’s what I have to believe…
 
Let me just tell you how proud I am of you, Catholic Kid, for knowing the right thing to do and then doing it. Amazing – especially in the face of people trying to dissuade you and dismiss the Church as an old lady who doesn’t know what she’s talking about. You know better, and I think that’s beautiful.

As for those of you who don’t understand… I guess the onlt thing I can say is, of course you don’t understand! You’re not Catholic. The teaching is not one of terror or hate, it’s one aimed at preserving the dignity of the human body and the beautiful and sacred love for which it was made.

Review “Humane Vitae” and relevant passages from the CCC for yourself to see that the dignity of the human person is the first priority in the prohibition against maturbation, adultery, and every other sexual sin. The issue is not one of condemnation for something “natural”, it’s a reminder that the body is meant for unitive and procreative LOVE – not self love, or self-indulgence, but the total giving of oneself to their spouse.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

If you read these documents and still harbor disdain for our beliefs, I pray that you will keep that disdain to yourself and remember that we love our God and our Church and your ill-will is unhelpful – especially for those of us who suffer with sexual sin. Leading someone to do something that they know is wrong is also a grave sin – namely the sin of scandal.

I pray that you would keep that in mind and maintain charity.
 
SophiaLector said:
Let me just tell you how proud I am of you, Catholic Kid, for knowing the right thing to do and then doing it. Amazing – especially in the face of people trying to dissuade you and dismiss the Church as an old lady who doesn’t know what she’s talking about. You know better, and I think that’s beautiful.

As for those of you who don’t understand… I guess the onlt thing I can say is, of course you don’t understand! You’re not Catholic. The teaching is not one of terror or hate, it’s one aimed at preserving the dignity of the human body and the beautiful and sacred love for which it was made.

Review “Humane Vitae” and relevant passages from the CCC for yourself to see that the dignity of the human person is the first priority in the prohibition against maturbation, adultery, and every other sexual sin. The issue is not one of condemnation for something “natural”, it’s a reminder that the body is meant for unitive and procreative LOVE – not self love, or self-indulgence, but the total giving of oneself to their spouse.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

If you read these documents and still harbor disdain for our beliefs, I pray that you will keep that disdain to yourself and remember that we love our God and our Church and your ill-will is unhelpful – especially for those of us who suffer with sexual sin. Leading someone to do something that they know is wrong is also a grave sin – namely the sin of scandal.

I pray that you would keep that in mind and maintain charity.
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The Eastern Orthodox Church understands people too. The Orthodox Church has a 2000 year history and today has about 400 to 500 million members. She knows how to counsel and help those burden with their sins. The Orthodox Church however does not center her teaching on St.Augustine on original sin as do the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church is not as severe with sin as Christians are in the West. Our teaching resembles more in the line of St.Maria Faustina’s revelation on the Divine Mercy and the messages Our Lord gave to her. Read the Diary and you get a glimpse of the East and how she approaches sin and how to deal with it. St.Augustine can be correct on many topics however on the topic with sexual sin he is offbase. Read the teachings of our Church Fathers and saints and they would have corrected St.Augustine on this one issue. I don’t know why Catholics are so hard when dealing with this issue. I think a more balanced approach listening to the Saints and Church Fathers and moral teaching of the Eastern Church can correct some misunderstandings on these issues. I agree with statements found in the CCC and the Holy Father’s writings but you must deal with people with compassion and love and when you use those statements found in the CCC and the Pope’s writings please interpret them right to the healing of the person. The Holy Father is right in Humane Vitae, 100% right but the Holy Father is not referring to masturbation. Come on. He is talking about bringing children into the world and the shortage of children that exists now is the cause of so many evils. Where are the children? People do not want them. They are selfish today, the parents ,and the children born today without hardly any brothers and sisters will grow up like their parents even more selfish. This is the warning the Pope is talking about in his letter. The children today grow up without anyone to fight with. How do you expect them to behave. Who is to correct them especially when they are all alone. The Orthodox still have large families and I can see that Catholics too are coming back to a larger family unit as they did years ago. It takes time to clear up the mess people get themslves into.
 
Take note: the author of this thread is a member called “Catholic Kid” not “Orthodox Kid”. He is being counseled as a fellow Catholic.

Thank you for your enthusiasm for the Orthodox Church. However, two corrections need to be made: The Orthodox Church is not 2000 years old. It is much younger – see the Great Schism – and cannot trace its Apostolic Succession back to the first Apostles as the Catholic Church can. A scanning of Church history reveals as much.

Secondly, St. Maria Faustina was a Catholic, not an Orthodox. And she was made a Saint by the Pope and the Magesterium, not the Orthodox Patriarchs. Her views on forgiveness and Mercy are profoundly Catholic. Whatever beauty they share with Orthodoxy is a happy coincidence. You fundamentally misunderstand the Catholic idea of grace and forgiveness if you try to say she is anything but supremely Catholic in her private revelations.

But you’re right about there not being enough children. Still you cannot include the beauty of more children, the fully functional and divine dignity of the human person in the love act with their spouse AND mastubation. The latter always excludes the former two.

But these are topics for another thread.
 
SophiaLector said:
Take note: the author of this thread is a member called “Catholic Kid” not “Orthodox Kid”. He is being counseled as a fellow Catholic.

Thank you for your enthusiasm for the Orthodox Church. However, two corrections need to be made: The Orthodox Church is not 2000 years old. It is much younger – see the Great Schism – and cannot trace its Apostolic Succession back to the first Apostles as the Catholic Church can. A scanning of Church history reveals as much.

Secondly, St. Maria Faustina was a Catholic, not an Orthodox. And she was made a Saint by the Pope and the Magesterium, not the Orthodox Patriarchs. Her views on forgiveness and Mercy are profoundly Catholic. Whatever beauty they share with Orthodoxy is a happy coincidence. You fundamentally misunderstand the Catholic idea of grace and forgiveness if you try to say she is anything but supremely Catholic in her private revelations.

But you’re right about there not being enough children. Still you cannot include the beauty of more children, the fully functional and divine dignity of the human person in the love act with their spouse AND mastubation. The latter always excludes the former two.

But these are topics for another thread.
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Ma'me I don't know how I got into this discussion but please if you have any disagreements with me please discuss them with the Holy Father first because I am sure he can correct you. The Holy Father has a better knowledge and concerns for the Orthodox Church and he does not have misunderstandings and misgivings about the Orthodox like so many of the lay Catholics have. Please I know who the Orthodox are and I believe we know best about who we are. You want to make statements like you do discuss them with your Pope or least with your bishop so you can be edified. Making statements like you do about a Church you know nothing about is not worth discussing. Please go to someone more learned within your own Church am I am sure you will better understand us and next time to chose words that are correct and true. I find talking with some lay Catholics is like talking to Protestants. Instead of learning the truth you have your own interpretation of it. Believe me I have helped and counseled hundreds of Catholics in my own town and many have benefited from my words. Just let you know the Holy Eucharist was developed by a saint or at least revised by St.John Chrysostom nearly 1600 years ago. We still use that Liturgy today. So we are not so young and our Church is Apostolic, the foundation from the other 11 apostles. That's the key in understanding us. Our origins do not come from Rome but from the other 11 apostles. Our relationship with Rome is that you have Peter as your foundation. So Peter and the other 11 form the Apostolic College and today that Apostolic College is represented by the church of Rome with His Holiness Benedict XVI presiding and the Eastern Church with all of her patriarchs presiding with His Holiness a Primacy given to him from Our Lord to guarantee the unity of the Church.
 
Your Church’s history is irrelevant to the points on which I was most concerned – namely that a Catholic should be counseled as one, not as an Orthodox; that St Maria Faustina was Catholic and was canonized by the Catholic Church, and that the concept of love and forgiveness that you said was Orthodox, is actually Catholic. This is a thread by Catholic about Catholic matters and your commentary on how Orthodoxy is somehow better were unhelpful.

That’s not the same thing as saying that I harbor any bitterness or feel myself or my tradition superior to you or your Church. All of that was inferred, incorrectly, on your part. Great apologies.

But I will have to correct you, again, on the Catholic Church’s (and world history’s) look at the Orthodox Church.

From the mother site of which the forums are an offshoot:
catholic.com/library/Eastern_Orthodoxy.asp

After which is the following stamp of approval by a Catholic Bishop:

"NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004"

Your argument is not with me, but with the Catholic Church. I wish you all blessing and peace in charity as a sister in Christ.
 
SophiaLector said:
Your Church’s history is irrelevant to the points on which I was most concerned – namely that a Catholic should be counseled as one, not as an Orthodox; that St Maria Faustina was Catholic and was canonized by the Catholic Church, and that the concept of love and forgiveness that you said was Orthodox, is actually Catholic. This is a thread by Catholic about Catholic matters and your commentary on how Orthodoxy is somehow better were unhelpful.

That’s not the same thing as saying that I harbor any bitterness or feel myself or my tradition superior to you or your Church. All of that was inferred, incorrectly, on your part. Great apologies.

But I will have to correct you, again, on the Catholic Church’s (and world history’s) look at the Orthodox Church.

From the mother site of which the forums are an offshoot:
catholic.com/library/Eastern_Orthodoxy.asp

After which is the following stamp of approval by a Catholic Bishop:

"NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004"

Your argument is not with me, but with the Catholic Church. I wish you all blessing and peace in charity as a sister in Christ.
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I do not have any arguement with anyone especially with the Catholic Church. This is my last post here anyway. I find the unity which God desires will not come with this generation. Too many have their own interests and desires and do not have Our Lord’s best interests at heart. By the way I find many Catholics in agreement with what I have said but sadly I am finding the problems for complete unity has much more obstacles to face than previously. Dialogue for me is the best way to help God in uniting our church. But I find out too early that most of this generation will not listen. I am sorry you think this way about us. I tried to make sense staying on this website but I am finding too many people have already decided what and who we are. Sadly I’m leaving not because I do not want to stay or because people like you have already decided what is best but I have great love for the Lord and His Holy Mother and for His Church and I rather minister to the people here on the Island than with people on this website. Some day no one day you will see this unity and if you are still around you will be suprised that the Orthodox Church will have her rightful claim alongside the Church of Rome.
 
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