Masturbation: natural law and a sudden lack of faith in the Church

[Elizabeth502]

bleh,
It’s not a matter of “knowing” intellectually, rationally, as it is faith + grace. But the latter two conditions depend somewhat on walking righteously, so that one may be receptive to grace and disposed to see/receive with the eyes of faith. The more that a believer dwells in grace, the more accessible grace is to that believer.

In any religion, I don’t believe that someone habituated to masturbation (not saying you are, just saying that there are posters on CAF who admit to that and “can’t see” what the moral problem is) is in a position to see morality clearly illumined. We are all born with a conscience, even atheists. Someone habituated to masturbation may just be “used” to it, and/or may have rationalized it, and/or may even be “addicted” (compulsive) about it, but it does cloud the thinking. The more one lives a physically and morally pure life, the more sensitized one is to sin.

God does not love non-Catholics less. God loves all with an unbounded love. If they are honestly living a righteous and pure life, they are receiving graces from God inasmuch as they are sincere. Same for sincere ethical people with no organized religion.

Catholics do believe that ‘objectively’ the Catholic Church is the seat of moral guidance. Those baptized into the faith bear a greater responsibility to adhere to those tenets than those who belong to other traditions, who have never been exposed to religion, etc. However, the Church does believe that the moral law is “written on the heart” of every man and woman, despite religious affiliation.

Hope that helps.
Blessings,
E.

 

[Think_About_It]

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE CHURCH DOESN’T FAIL IN MATTERS OF MORALS???

Because the church was instituted by Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral

So you see, God is moral, and the Church has a monopoly on all things divine…

 

[rmbrulotte]

so, through reflection, i have come to realize that in my moments when i fall i have a sudden loss of faith; in short, nothing i have heard in the past is enough to convince me that it is a sin.

Do you think this all the time, or just when you are tempted? If it is only when you are tempted, it is pretty safe to say that you are trying to rationalize doing what you want to do. Satan likes to creep into our heads and have us rationalize our sins. I have to pay very special attention to this in my life as I tend towards gluttony.

the two areas which i really doubt are as follows: how masturbation is contratry to natural law and how involved the Holy Spirit was in the Church when the Magisterium has proclaimed it to be a sin.

Sex, and along with it, sexual pleasure, was created for the good of the marriage and for the procreation of children. Not one or the other. Our bodies aren’t to be used, by ourselves or anyone else. Masturbation is using our bodies for pleasure.

As far as how involved the Holy Spirit was in this, I think you can go back to the OT and Onan for this teaching. Can you also see that it isn’t as though the Church condemns masturbation because it doesn’t want you to have fun? It condemns it because it is a purely selfish act, just as contracepting, or homosexual intercourse is.

so please, help me with this…tell me the reasoning behind this teaching or your own personal reasons for rejecting it.

I hope that my reasoning above was sufficient. I think you really need to look beyond simply the masturbation thing to the whole theology of the body and put it in the proper context.

on a side note: how does mortal sin, such as masturbation, effect God’s plan for a person? does every mortal act somehow make our future more and more mutated from what God originally intended, or through a true confession and convergeance of heart will it be as though it never happened?

Mortal sin SEPARATES us from God. Yes, though confession we can be reunited but that sin stains us. We are taught that though through confession we are once again united to God, but further purification may be needed for us to enter heaven. I am not an expert on this particular matter, but generally speaking, yes, if you make a good confession you are reunited with God. But it isn’t as though it never happened.

thank you!!

 

[Mike_Dye]

Masturbation isolates us from the natural order of sexuality, which is paired, not solo. It also unnaturaly focuses us our ourselves, turning the sexual act inward rather than outward. In doing this, it perverts sex and distorts its purpose. It also makes two idols (which is against the First Commandment, of course): we idolize ourselves by it, and we idolize pleasure for its own sake – as opposed to pleasure as a gift & as a product of holy union with the human object of our love. In pleasuring ourselves, we seize this gift out of impatience and false entitlement, therefore devaluing the gift itself.

firstly let me say thank you, thats the best description of the natural law argument against masturbation i’ve heard…honestly your entire answer was very helpful

and to everyone who has posted on this thread i thank you for taking the time to answer my question, may God Bless you all!!!

however, the second part of my question remains rather untouched from what i can see…so could someone please tell me how God is so closely linked to the Church that they won’t err on matters of morals

and to stbosco11, thank you for the personal testimony…how have you conquered this?

Hi bleh…confused,
I will attempt to answer the second part of your question. Yes God is intimately joined to His Church and keeps Her free from error, You only need to turn to Sacred Scripture and you will find that before His ascension Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit on the Church to protect it and be it’s advocate. Earlier Jesus gave his apostles full authority when He said, " What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven". So we can easily see that it was Jesus intention to leave his Church with the authority to say what is right and what is wrong in maters of faith and morals.
Trust me, I am a guy that has been around and know the difficulties you may be facing. I would just say, hang in there and try your best. If you fail offer up your failure to God, confess your sin and try again. God will not abandon you as long as you do your level best to try to please Him. Do not let the devil lead you into despair. Remember that God, The Church, and your friends here are on your side:thumbsup:

 

[hellopeople]

Through Faith, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

Through Reason - the ability to weigh the evidence and come to a rational conclusion. Jesus was either who He said He was, the Lord or he was a liar or a he was a lunatic.

Or the apostles believed he was the Christ and shaped his story accordingly. That is definitely another possibility.

 

[bleh_confused]

bleh,
It’s not a matter of “knowing” intellectually, rationally, as it is faith + grace. But the latter two conditions depend somewhat on walking righteously, so that one may be receptive to grace and disposed to see/receive with the eyes of faith. The more that a believer dwells in grace, the more accessible grace is to that believer.

but all matters of morals can be known through natural reasoning, correct?

 

[bleh_confused]

Because the church was instituted by Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral, and founded the church through his beloved son, Jesus, who was sent by God, who is perfectly moral

So you see, God is moral, and the Church has a monopoly on all things divine…

hmm, i see you feel very strongly against the Church…and judging by your past posts your for masturbation

may i ask, could you explain your views on these things?

 

[Think_About_It]

hmm, i see you feel very strongly against the Church…and judging by your past posts your for masturbation

may i ask, could you explain your views on these things?

Certainly…

I don’t, nor have I, outright rejected the Church as an authoritative body on matters of morality and God (At least, that was not my beginning premise when I adopted the beliefs I hold now). I came to disagree with either the views or many of the rationales behind the views ardently maintained by the church (on sex, women, homosexuality, ordination, justice, STI preventative contraceptives etc.). Masturbation, I think, poses a particular problem. We are told that it is intrinsically perverse, and a mortal sin. My problem, as you might have inferred, is the same as yours. I believe that it’s a very natural thing, and to stifle it seems foolish. Children, for instance, begin masturbating before they can put together a cogent sentence; like hunger, like sleep, like an itch that needs to be scratched, or like any drive, it’s something that wants to be satisfied physiologically. I imagine myself: since I was young (very young), the urge has never left me – and why should it have? It’s built into me, and for good reason it does what it’s supposed to do. I can’t imagine spending decades suppressing what occurs naturally in most everybody, and I don’t think there’s any good reason why one should.

If an alleged statement has veracity, it ought to be true by more than just revelation; it ought also to appeal to our natural reason (otherwise we have a god telling us one thing and demonstrating another). There’s a drive: the intuitive thing to do is to satisfy it some way (and I’m not talking to the point of psychological obsession). The maladaptive thing to do would be to suppress it. Psychological studies have repeatedly replicated the positive effects of masturbation; it’s something innate in us, it doesn’t injure anybody, and it’s as foolish to starve the desire as it is to starve yourself. Not everybody has marriage just waiting for them to exercise this desire; there has to be an alternative. When the Church blatantly contradicts what is intuitive, in favour of its creed, I tend to be sceptical of it as a source for any moral grounds, or anything at all really.

Apologies for the long-winded ramblings. Hope this cleared up my views a little.

Kind regards,
Think About It.

 

[terminated007]

I am also battling with masturbation, porn and lust.
This is what I think:

Masturbation is a very selfish act performed by weak men who lack spiritual joy.
Saint Thomas Aquinas said:

No man can live without delight, and this is why a man deprived of spiritual joy goes over to carnal pleasures.

You need to check out some of Jason Evert books as Elizabeth502 mentioned in her first post.

How could we be seeking pleasure via images of women in our minds or via porn?
How could we regard women as sex objects instead of as our sisters of humanity?
How could we continue to lower the dignity of women just to satisfy our evil desires?
How can we men, who are gifted with enormous strength and masculinity be so weak to overcome mental images?
So of all the difficult tasks on earth, is overcoming masturbation the only thing we can’t do?

If we all ask ourselves those questions, then I believe we are in the right direction in overcoming masturbation.

Unfortunately, most of us picked up the habit of masturbation as teenagers but as adults, we have to fight and overcome it. Man shouldn’t be the slave of anything.

Sex is a beautiful gift from God and all a man needs to do in order to enjoy sex is to be courageous enough to get a wife and enjoy the gift of sex. Again, man shouldn’t be the slave of anything so we shouldn’t also let ourselves become slaves of sex.

The act of invoking the image of females in the mind instead of invoking the image of God is a great weakness which I believe we need to overcome as men.
The church does not need to teach us that. If we love and respect women, we wouldn’t consider them as sex objects in any form.

It is tempting to say that if God really loves us, he shouldn’t be letting us face such temptations. Its important to remember that God does not tempt us. We are tempted by our own evil desires. James 1:12-15

…If we are tempted by such trials, we must not say, “This temptation comes from God.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. But we are tempted when we are drawn away and trapped by our own desires…

We also need to remember that there is no temptation that we cannot overcome and God will not allow us to be tempted beyond our strength. 1 Corinthians 10: 13

Every test that you have experienced is the kind that normally comes to people. But God keeps his promise, and he will not allow you to be tested beyond your power to remain firm;…

All of us have a choice to make in life. Nobody is forcing us to be catholics but if we choose to be catholics, then we have to obey the teachings of the catholic church.

For those who don’t like the teachings of the catholic church, there is no need trying to fight her teachings. Go your way. There is no need chasing the wind.

@Oralabora, thanks for qouting and giving some insight into the CCC’s teaching regarding this act.

May the good Lord continue to have mercy on us all sinners and by his grace, me he help us not to sin again and may he also remove all those images we embedded in our minds (ignorantly) and replace them with divine images.

 

[Think_About_It]

“No man can live without delight, and this is why a man deprived of spiritual joy goes over to carnal pleasures.”

That’s a silly little catchphrase. It’s not as if one kind of delight can usurp another. I may enjoy reading, but I can’t replace the delight I get from it with masturbation or vice versa. Same goes for our need to experience spiritual or transcendental things (whether those experiences are valid or not). Spiritual things fulfil our spiritual desires. Carnal things fulfil our carnal desires. We can no more fulfil a need for food with sleep then sex with religion. C’mon…

 

[Elizabeth502]

bleh,
If you came onto the forum sincerely to get answers from a Catholic perspective, it seems contradictory that you’re seriously engaging the views of a non-Catholic on Catholic moral theology.

Please, the next time you’re in the confessional, discuss this with a trained Catholic priest. He will give you the reasoning, which you will find is probably not too much different from my first reply, but more succinct. You have received several additional resources here from practicing Catholics. That’s why I say, if you don’t want to avail yourselves of those, and still doubt, then seek direct advice, in person or anonymously, from a priest you respect and trust.

And/or you can investigate writers less contemporary than Jason Evert – such as Augustine and Aquinas.

Look, in coming back to the Church I had a lot of questions and doubts, particularly in the area of moral theology. So I went in person to a trusted priest friend and aired my concerns. He didn’t back down or something; he just listened, and it was a chance for me to air, vent, so to speak. That led me to further reading on moral matters, and eventually I came to see that the priest had been right all along. But you need to go to the sources, not to informal and unauthoritative opinions on an internet forum.

Just saying this respectfully, as a fellow pilgrim who struggles daily against sin.

 

[Think_About_It]

The doubt *concerns *Catholicism. The worst thing a person can do to find out what the truth is, is search out confirming evidence alone. What about the disconfirming evidence? Just ignor that? That wouldn’t give a very holistic picture of reality. That would be something like plugging your ears, closing your eyes, and saying “NAH DAH NAH DAH DAH, I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”

 

[ForwardProgress]

Sex is a beautiful gift from God and all a man needs to do in order to enjoy sex is to be courageous enough to get a wife and enjoy the gift of sex. Again, man shouldn’t be the slave of anything so we shouldn’t also let ourselves become slaves of sex.

HAHA…good luck with that! Get a wife and enjoy the gift of sex? Guess what…lots of married women totally lose their libido…then what…then it is tremendously more difficult to remain pure of heart. I don’t care how much you do for them, to them, help around the house, raise the kids, etc…some women after marriage just totally lose all interest in sex. I would say, judging from my friends, that sexual rejection is way way commonplace.

 

[OraLabora]

HAHA…good luck with that! Get a wife and enjoy the gift of sex? Guess what…lots of married women totally lose their libido…then what…then it is tremendously more difficult to remain pure of heart. I don’t care how much you do for them, to them, help around the house, raise the kids, etc…some women after marriage just totally lose all interest in sex. I would say, judging from my friends, that sexual rejection is way way commonplace.

It’s quite common around the age of menopause. Ask me how I know.

It’s a terribly difficult thing for a man to feel the rejection of his wife. Some men chose this particular sin to control their drives and avoid straying from the nest. Is that ideal? No it isn’t, we are a fallen species.

But it is what happens.

 

[Think_About_It]

HAHA…good luck with that! Get a wife and enjoy the gift of sex? Guess what…lots of married women totally lose their libido…then what…then it is tremendously more difficult to remain pure of heart. I don’t care how much you do for them, to them, help around the house, raise the kids, etc…some women after marriage just totally lose all interest in sex. I would say, judging from my friends, that sexual rejection is way way commonplace.

Haha what a bummer. It’ll neeeeeeeeever happen to me nuzzles into warm, cosy complacency

Raging male sex drive - female sex drive after marriage = Cruel joke from on high

 

[djforce888]

We are told that it is intrinsically perverse, and a mortal sin. My problem, as you might have inferred, is the same as yours. I believe that it’s a very natural thing, and to stifle it seems foolish. Children, for instance, begin masturbating before they can put together a cogent sentence; like hunger, like sleep, like an itch that needs to be scratched, or like any drive, it’s something that wants to be satisfied physiologically.

I think you have to look at why it is taught to be perverse and a mortal sin. To sum it up for you, it takes away our humanity in that it takes away our calling to true love. Now what is true love? Well sacrifice is the essence of it. First of all, unlike sleep and hunger which we need to live we do not need masturbation to live. Also, consider the fact that masturbation is a selfish act that is meant for your own pleasure. Is love selfish? No it is not. Therefore if you cant even control your own little temptation like masturbation how do you ever expect to have true love or love someone else with a pure heart.

 

[Think_About_It]

I think you have to look at why it is taught to be perverse and a mortal sin. To sum it up for you, it takes away our humanity in that it takes away our calling to true love. Now what is true love? Well sacrifice is the essence of it. First of all, unlike sleep and hunger which we need to live we do not need masturbation to live. Also, consider the fact that masturbation is a selfish act that is meant for your own pleasure. Is love selfish? No it is not. Therefore if you cant even control your own little temptation like masturbation how do you ever expect to have true love or love someone else with a pure heart.

Yeah, I understand that. I just don’t see doing things that are done for their exclusive enjoyment as taking away from love. I read a book for enjoyment, I play pool for enjoyment, I watch movies for enjoyment, etc. And I still love those close to me as cordially as if I didn’t wank at all. It’s not as if I suspend the love I would otherwise offer people because I’m too busy jerking off, or getting ready to, or recovering from . If true love is about sacrifice, I would say that Christians sacrifice the bare minimum for the most part (they certainly don’t take Jesus council to sell all their posessions and follow Him).

 

[Think_About_It]

No takers, huh?

 

[rmbrulotte]

Yeah, I understand that. I just don’t see doing things that are done for their exclusive enjoyment as taking away from love. I read a book for enjoyment, I play pool for enjoyment, I watch movies for enjoyment, etc. And I still love those close to me as cordially as if I didn’t wank at all. It’s not as if I suspend the love I would otherwise offer people because I’m too busy jerking off, or getting ready to, or recovering from . If true love is about sacrifice, I would say that Christians sacrifice the bare minimum for the most part (they certainly don’t take Jesus council to sell all their posessions and follow Him).

When you read a book or watch a movie, you are learning something, or at least getting your mind opened to different ideas and experiences. You are not using a person to get enjoyment. And yes, there are books that are sinful to read. And there are reasons I suppose that would make it sinful to watch movies or read books, ie; if doing so took away from your or someone else’s dignity, took time away from what you ought to be doing, etc.

It isn’t like the Church is saying that you can’t ever enjoy yourself. But if the pleasure takes away from someone’s dignity, then you can not. The sexual act is designed for the bonding of the married couple and procreation. Pleasure is involved with that (hopefully!) and contributes to the good of the marriage, of the individuals in the marriage, the children of the couple, and reaffirms the love the couple has for each other. The Church sees the pleasure involved with the sexual act in a very dignified way. To seek the pleasure out for its own sake separates it from part of the intended purpose of the pleasure.

 

[rmbrulotte]

If true love is about sacrifice, I would say that Christians sacrifice the bare minimum for the most part (they certainly don’t take Jesus council to sell all their posessions and follow Him).

So if you want to have a respectful conversation, why would you insist on adding that in there? A broad, sweeping generalization about a Bible passage that you have taken way out of context isn’t helpful here. That comment adds nothing to the discussion at hand and is completely off topic. If there is a question you have about that particular passage in the Bible, I suggest that you start a new thread.