Masturbation....Or not?

[OraLabora]

I would submit that the “biological urge” is not to masturbate, it is to reproduce. Masturbation is a perversion of that natural urge. The porn industry feeds on this perversion.

OK, that is the natural urge. But what if the opportunity to reproduce is not present? The prostate is a gland that fills with fluid that needs to go somewhere, and a significant percentage of men never have nocturnal emissions.

What are the effects of withholding ejaculation on:

1. Sperm quality and motility
2. Prostate health

Just playing devil’s advocate here, trying to see how nature and medical science squares up against the Church and the Natural Law.

 

[whm]

OK, that is the natural urge. But what if the opportunity to reproduce is not present? The prostate is a gland that fills with fluid that needs to go somewhere, and a significant percentage of men never have nocturnal emissions.

It does?

What are the effects of withholding ejaculation on:

1. Sperm quality and motility
2. Prostate health

Just playing devil’s advocate here, trying to see how nature and medical science squares up against the Church and the Natural Law.

1. it reduces the count. frequent masturbation can also lead to sexual dysfunction.
2. Inconclusive. There is some uncontrolled data that might show higher instances of prostate problems with priests that go to a Urologist vs other folks that go to a Urologist. Since priests are not going to see the urologist for sexual disfunction or STD issues (a significant portion of urologist visits) and the fact that a priest’s lifestyle is otherwise very different from other men make the stats inconclusive.

If one is worried about ones health try the following first:

1. Eat healthy
2. exercise (and keep weight down)
3. get regular checkups
4. avoid dangerous activities
5. get good sleep
6. use UVB and UVA protecting sunscreen
7. don’t smoke, don’t drink in excess
8. maintain you vehicle, wear a seat belt.
9. be careful were you live
10. don’t inhale toxic chemicals
11. never retire completely (stay active physically and mentally)
12. Get regular prostate exams as you age

Not trying to be sarcastic (maybe a little) but seriously regular sexual discharge would be way down the list.

 

[OAO]

How long does it take before symptoms occur? Is orgasm once a week or once a month enough to prevent the symptoms? What have priests told you? If you really have a health issue with abstinence, I think that you should not abstain. I have not had any health issues with abstinence - still hoping…

First start feeling discomfort around 3 days; after about a week, it starts getting more severe. I can go up to 3 weeks without getting a nocturnal emission. I brought up that my conscience was struggling with masturbation in confession, and the priest told me to search for the truth, etc, but still gave me absolution.

I don’t think dissenting on masturbation is sufficient to go against Catholicism - it’d be a little excessive to reduce a 2000 year religious tradition to that…

 

[OraLabora]

It does?

If it didn’t, then why would the majority of men experience nocturnal emissions during abstinence? And for those who don’t, what would be the impact? It seems nature herself provides a mechanism for it.

1. it reduces the count. frequent masturbation can also lead to sexual dysfunction.

It reduces quality and motility. Too frequent ejaculation reduces the count. The proper balance seems to be around 3-4x per week, if one is trying to conceive.

1. Inconclusive. There is some uncontrolled data that might show higher instances of prostate problems with priests that go to a Urologist vs other folks that go to a Urologist. Since priests are not going to see the urologist for sexual disfunction or STD issues (a significant portion of urologist visits) and the fact that a priest’s lifestyle is otherwise very different from other men make the stats inconclusive.

The results are probably anecdotal, but what would be the impact of abstinence in a man in his 50s+ with benign prostatic hyperplasia? In my wife’s medical texts, it cites “more frequent ejaculation” as a conservative and non-invasive treatment for the associated discomfort of this condition. The second option is prostate massage. The last is surgery.

If one is worried about ones health try the following first:

1. Eat healthy
2. exercise (and keep weight down)
3. get regular checkups
4. avoid dangerous activities
5. get good sleep
6. use UVB and UVA protecting sunscreen
7. don’t smoke, don’t drink in excess
8. maintain you vehicle, wear a seat belt.
9. be careful were you live
10. don’t inhale toxic chemicals
11. never retire completely (stay active physically and mentally)
12. Get regular prostate exams as you age

Not trying to be sarcastic (maybe a little) but seriously regular sexual discharge would be way down the list.

We’re talking about a specific solution to a problem targeting a specific organ system. While all of the above are good for maintaining one’s general health, none will specifically address prostatitis, or benign prostatic hyperplasia except the last one, and that would be diagnostic, not therapeutic, and these conditions can affect otherwise healthy men. Nor does the above list guarantee you won’t get cancer or heart disease for that matter, though it will put the odds in your favor.

So let’s hear some logical and medical reasons, not just the usual “because the Church says so” arguments.

 

[whm]

If it didn’t, then why would the majority of men experience nocturnal emissions during abstinence? And for those who don’t, what would be the impact? It seems nature herself provides a mechanism for it.

Young men have nocturnal emissions, it is rarer in older men.

It reduces quality and motility. Too frequent ejaculation reduces the count. The proper balance seems to be around 3-4x per week, if one is trying to conceive.

The results are probably anecdotal, but what would be the impact of abstinence in a man in his 50s+ with benign prostatic hyperplasia? In my wife’s medical texts, it cites “more frequent ejaculation” as a conservative and non-invasive treatment for the associated discomfort of this condition. The second option is prostate massage. The last is surgery.

We’re talking about a specific solution to a problem targeting a specific organ system. While all of the above are good for maintaining one’s general health, none will specifically address prostatitis, or benign prostatic hyperplasia except the last one, and that would be diagnostic, not therapeutic, and these conditions can affect otherwise healthy men. Nor does the above list guarantee you won’t get cancer or heart disease for that matter, though it will put the odds in your favor.

So let’s hear some logical and medical reasons, not just the usual “because the Church says so” arguments.

Its against forum rules to give medical advice. Don’t rely on your wife’s medical books. Unless you are trained as a doctor yourself, you are not qualified to interpret the information. I recommend you see a qualified Catholic urologist. Call and ask any urologist, they know who the catholic ones are since they don’t do vasectomies.

 

[OraLabora]

Its against forum rules to give medical advice. Don’t rely on your wife’s medical books. Unless you are trained as a doctor yourself, you are not qualified to interpret the information. I recommend you see a qualified Catholic urologist. Call and ask any urologist, they know who the catholic ones are since they don’t do vasectomies.

Nobody’s asking for medical advice any more than people who search the Internet for proper nutrition.

What I want to hear are good logical arguments on the topic, not just “because the Church says so”. We have brains, let’s use them! If we’re to persuade youth to avoid this sin, just saying “because the Church said so” won’t cut it.

I don’t have any particular health problem, but I do know men who do, and I do hear of the issue from my wife when she talks about her practice.

 

[whm]

Nobody’s asking for medical advice any more than people who search the Internet for proper nutrition.

What I want to hear are good logical arguments on the topic, not just “because the Church says so”. We have brains, let’s use them! If we’re to persuade youth to avoid this sin, just saying “because the Church said so” won’t cut it.

I don’t have any particular health problem, but I do know men who do, and I do hear of the issue from my wife when she talks about her practice.

Okay, instead of trying to find a loop hole lets discuss (non religious reasons) why not to masturbate.

1. It perverts the sexual act from a giving to a selfish act.
2. It is habit forming and can be very difficult to stop.
3. It can lead to premature e____ , lets say finishing. Which can devastate marital relations.
4. It can lead to or be feed by a porn habit.
5. It can make people less likely to commit to and stick with marriage.
6. It often(always?) requires fantasies/images that objectifies and even violates others.
7. Its gross.
8. It, and associated porn use, ruins marriages.

 

[OraLabora]

OK, devil’s advocate here, all in good Internet fun, but also to provoke a bit of critical thinking:

Okay, instead of trying to find a loop hole lets discuss (non religious reasons) why not to masturbate.

1. It perverts the sexual act from a giving to a selfish act.

Many good things in life can lead to selfish ends. Money. Power. Eating strictly for pleasure. And some people masturbate more for relief than pleasure. Is it selfish for me to enjoy a nice glass of red wine with a steak while alone? Should I only enjoy a nice meal in good company, while eating only for strictly nutritional purposes when alone? By any definition, any self-induced pleasure is a selfish thing, yet pleasure is not necessarily a sin. I certainly don’t feel guilty when my wife is away and I grill myself a nice steak and pour myself a glass of shiraz.

1. It is habit forming and can be very difficult to stop.

You can say the same thing about having a glass of wine. Or even having a cigarette. Smoking is not a mortal sin, yet it is a completely unnatural act that misuses and damages the breathing faculty. Moreover it often imposes a health risk on surrounding people, which masturbation certainly does not do.

1. It can lead to premature e____ , lets say finishing. Which can devastate marital relations.

Actually I think the opposite is true. Long periods of abstinence can result in being premature. I used to travel for up to two weeks on business and abstain. I can affirm that this led to what you describe, whereas a more normal frequency did not result in that problem. In fact if there’s something bad that can be said with masturbation, it is the opposite problem as it can de-sensitize and make completion difficult in conjugal relations.

1. It can lead to or be feed by a porn habit.

It may, or it may not. A glass of wine may be the first step towards alcoholism… or it may not.

1. It can make people less likely to commit to and stick with marriage.

It may help preserve a marriage where one of the spouses is unable to have marital relations due to illness or separation (say military service, business trips), by allowing an outlet and reducing the chance of extra-marital relations.

1. It often(always?) requires fantasies/images that objectifies and even violates others.

I see nothing particularly wrong with fantasizing about a particularly mutually enjoyable marital encounter with one’s spouse.

1. Its gross.

In some ways, by some people’s aesthetic measure, so is sex.

1. It, and associated porn use, ruins marriages.

Porn use, and masturbation, are two separate sins. True, often both are associated. But masturbation certainly does not require porn use (keep in mind women masturbate too and are less likely than men to use porn for it).

Now porn use, I agree is a terrible sin that ruins the dignity of both the actors, and the viewer, and is very harmful to marital relations. Personally, I think it a greater evil than masturbation.

 

[aperture]

Okay, instead of trying to find a loop hole lets discuss (non religious reasons) why not to masturbate.

1. It perverts the sexual act from a giving to a selfish act.
2. It is habit forming and can be very difficult to stop.
3. It can lead to premature e____ , lets say finishing. Which can devastate marital relations.
4. It can lead to or be feed by a porn habit.
5. It can make people less likely to commit to and stick with marriage.
6. It often(always?) requires fantasies/images that objectifies and even violates others.
7. Its gross.
8. It, and associated porn use, ruins marriages.

From what I can tell, only two of these are in any way valid. 2-5 and 8 are basically slippery-slope arguments. You can masturbate without being a porn fiend or finding your wife hideous. 7 is pretty subjective. By the same token, as OraLabora mentioned, sex itself can be seen as gross.

But 1? Yes, it’s selfish. But so is buying yourself a CD rather than giving it to someone else. Everyone’s selfish; we’re human. 6? It can objectify others, but, again, we’re human. I’d argue that most people “use” others, in one way or another, and yet are not committing mortal sin. Do you, for example, enjoy American football? Well, then you’re admiring these athletes for their physical ability, and as they endanger their health on the field for your benefit, unless you have a deep relationship with them, you are using them. Illogical as I see it, but it seems to parallel “objectification.”

 

[dnar]

This whole conversation is simple to solve.

Jesus gave Peter the power to bind and loose.

The Church says that masturbation is a mortal sin.

Mortal sin will damn the soul to hell unless confessed and repented.

Masturbation is a mortal sin, especially for one who knows the Church says its wrong and does it anyway.

No matter how you try to rationalize it, or justify it, or talk your way out of it. The world is at war with the Church spiritually, and there will always be an attempt to justify sinful behavior.

The end.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

 

[whm]

OK, devil’s advocate here, all in good Internet fun, but also to provoke a bit of critical thinking:

Many good things in life can lead to selfish ends. Money. Power. Eating strictly for pleasure. And some people masturbate more for relief than pleasure. Is it selfish for me to enjoy a nice glass of red wine with a steak while alone? Should I only enjoy a nice meal in good company, while eating only for strictly nutritional purposes when alone? By any definition, any self-induced pleasure is a selfish thing, yet pleasure is not necessarily a sin. I certainly don’t feel guilty when my wife is away and I grill myself a nice steak and pour myself a glass of shiraz.

Many the things you mention are sins. Perhaps not the steak

It is an interesting point, though, in my experience communicating with people struggling with purity issues, getting rid of all selfish habits is a key step to braking the cycle.

You can say the same thing about having a glass of wine. Or even having a cigarette. Smoking is not a mortal sin, yet it is a completely unnatural act that misuses and damages the breathing faculty. Moreover it often imposes a health risk on surrounding people, which masturbation certainly does not do.

With what we know today, I would say that it could be a venial sin for somebody to start smoking cigarettes (assuming they know how harmful they can be)

Actually I think the opposite is true. Long periods of abstinence can result in being premature. I used to travel for up to two weeks on business and abstain. I can affirm that this led to what you describe, whereas a more normal frequency did not result in that problem. In fact if there’s something bad that can be said with masturbation, it is the opposite problem as it can de-sensitize and make completion difficult in conjugal relations.

It is a listed cause for PE. Might not be the end result for everyone, but is still a listed primary cause for certain forms of PE. What you describe is a separate issue and in your scenario doesn’t involve masturbation at all. Your last point could also be valid for some people, I agree.

This desensitizing also leads some to deeper darker places…

It may help preserve a marriage where one of the spouses is unable to have marital relations due to illness or separation (say military service, business trips), by allowing an outlet and reducing the chance of extra-marital relations.

I disagree, I think it would lead to extra marital relations(i think it is by itself), if does not lead to a physical affair, it very well lead to a virtual affair through porn.

Porn use, and masturbation, are two separate sins. True, often both are associated. But masturbation certainly does not require porn use (keep in mind women masturbate too and are less likely than men to use porn for it).

For the most part I think porn is a subset of masturbation. Porn exists primarily for masturbation. Masturbation almost always involves impure images, whether stored in the mind or of the computer screen.

Now porn use, I agree is a terrible sin that ruins the dignity of both the actors, and the viewer, and is very harmful to marital relations. Personally, I think it a greater evil than masturbation.

I suppose I can agree with that, but again I think they are greatly connected.

 

[whm]

From what I can tell, only two of these are in any way valid. 2-5 and 8 are basically slippery-slope arguments. You can masturbate without being a porn fiend or finding your wife hideous. 7 is pretty subjective. By the same token, as OraLabora mentioned, sex itself can be seen as gross.

But 1? Yes, it’s selfish. But so is buying yourself a CD rather than giving it to someone else. Everyone’s selfish; we’re human. 6? It can objectify others, but, again, we’re human. I’d argue that most people “use” others, in one way or another, and yet are not committing mortal sin. Do you, for example, enjoy American football? Well, then you’re admiring these athletes for their physical ability, and as they endanger their health on the field for your benefit, unless you have a deep relationship with them, you are using them. Illogical as I see it, but it seems to parallel “objectification.”

I have no problem telling anybody I meet that I watched a football game last night, including the players in the game.

 

[whm]

This whole conversation is simple to solve.

Jesus gave Peter the power to bind and loose.

The Church says that masturbation is a mortal sin.

Mortal sin will damn the soul to hell unless confessed and repented.

Masturbation is a mortal sin, especially for one who knows the Church says its wrong and does it anyway.

No matter how you try to rationalize it, or justify it, or talk your way out of it. The world is at war with the Church spiritually, and there will always be an attempt to justify sinful behavior.

The end.

It is also clear in the bible, and has been considered wrong for 1000’s of years.

 

[aperture]

With what we know today, I would say that it could be a venial sin for somebody to start smoking cigarettes (assuming they know how harmful they can be)

I can understand why the Church would consider a lifelong smoker a venial sinner, given that addiction lessens culpability. But why would a first-time cigarette be final? It’s certainly a misuse of the respiratory system God gave us.

I have no problem telling anybody I meet that I watched a football game last night, including the players in the game.

This statement doesn’t actually say anything. Just because you’re open about it doesn’t mean it’s right.

It is also clear in the bible, and has been considered wrong for 1000’s of years.

It is not clear in the Bible; considered wrong for 1000’s of years? Where’s the evidence for this?

 

[whm]

It is not clear in the Bible; considered wrong for 1000’s of years? Where’s the evidence for this?

See post 58.

 

[OraLabora]

This whole conversation is simple to solve.

Jesus gave Peter the power to bind and loose.

The Church says that masturbation is a mortal sin.

Mortal sin will damn the soul to hell unless confessed and repented.

Masturbation is a mortal sin, especially for one who knows the Church says its wrong and does it anyway.

No matter how you try to rationalize it, or justify it, or talk your way out of it. The world is at war with the Church spiritually, and there will always be an attempt to justify sinful behavior.

The end.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

You have just contradicted yourself by saying masturbation is not a “mortal sin” and then posting CCC 2352.

Read it carefully. It says it is gravely disordered. It does not define it as “mortal sin”.

Only when done in full knowledge and with full consent is it mortal sin, is a gravely disordered act a mortal sin. Read the whole of CCC 2352, including the escape clauses, which are wide enough to drive a bus through sideways.

Yours is the kind of argument that drives me nuts. Why bother to have a brain? There must be a reason why the Church says what she does. That’s what I’m looking for.

See post 58.

And what’s the definition of sexual morality as defined in those quotes?

 

[dnar]

You have just contradicted yourself by saying masturbation is not a “mortal sin” and then posting CCC 2352.

What?!? I never said it was not a mortal sin. I said it was. Read more carefully.

Read it carefully. It says it is gravely disordered. It does not define it as “mortal sin”.

Only when done in full knowledge and with full consent is it mortal sin, is a gravely disordered act a mortal sin. Read the whole of CCC 2352, including the escape clauses, which are wide enough to drive a bus through sideways.

I said, when one knows the Church teaches against it and does it anyway. That would cover your “full knowledge and full consent” part. sigh

Yours is the kind of argument that drives me nuts. Why bother to have a brain? There must be a reason why the Church says what she does. That’s what I’m looking for.

You are very unkind.

 

[dnar]

It is also clear in the bible, and has been considered wrong for 1000’s of years.

And I agree totally.

 

[camerong]

I don’t think dissenting on masturbation is sufficient to go against Catholicism - it’d be a little excessive to reduce a 2000 year religious tradition to that…

You’re wrong. By saying that masturbation is okay, you’re saying the Church is wrong about a fundamental issue of morality, is fallible where it claims to be infallible. You are questioning the very authority of the Church to do (part of) what the Church is here to do–give us Christ’s continuing guidance. If Christ Himself appeared to you, showed you His wounds, and told you masturbation was wrong, would you tell Him “yeah, well, dissenting on this issue is not going against you”? Well, that’s exactly what is going on here.

 

[OraLabora]

What?!? I never said it was not a mortal sin. I said it was. Read more carefully.

Sorry I made a mistake, I meant to say you just contradicted yourself by saying it IS a mortal sin.

It isn’t, unless the other two conditions are met.

You are very unkind.

I don’t like being played for a fool. I asked specifically for arguments other than “because the Church says so”, and that’s basically the argument you gave us; so one assumes that you didn’t read correctly either.

There must be reasoning behind the Church’s affirmation. If we’re going to convince somebody that this is a serious sin, then just saying “because the Church says so” is not likely to win too many converts.

For what it’s worth I do think it’s a sin, and can be mortal in some circumstances. But none of us here are qualified to say if, when someone comes to us and says “did I commit a mortal sin?”, that it is or isn’t. That’s a determination only a confessor can make with full history of the circumstances.