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aperture
Guest
This response adds basically nothing to the thread, seeing as how it’s just another “it’s a sin, end of story”-type post.
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OraLabora
Guest
Moreover even the good father himself falls into the trap of error by saying it is a “mortal” sin, when current Catholic teaching, approved by the blessed holy father John Paul II, says it is “grave matter”, says that two other conditions (full knowledge and full consent) need to be present for a sin to be mortal, and gives a list of possible mitigating circumstances that may lessen culpability. Mitigating circumstances that are in fact widely prevalent in society.
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Daedelus76
Guest
Well, if you are aware of mysticism, there is an element of eros involved potentially. It might be that eliminating the natural sexual drive completely and/or through artificial means has delitirious spiritual consequences. Going only with empirical science, however, to determine what is beneficial might obscure this.
On a side note, one thing that scientists have noticed is that fasting tends to lower sexual drive in animals. Christians monastics also noted this in themselves (fasting was the usual recommendation to deal with lust), though they attributed this to detachment from the flesh. In truth, I don’t think they had a perfectly systematic theory on why it worked, it just did.
You are implying an “either/or” thing. Either one masturbates or one will do something worse. This is not the case, it really doesn’t necessarily have to work that way.
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DrFloyd
Guest
You are painting with such a broad brush here…it’s almost amusing.
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DrFloyd
Guest
Yup, I totally agree with this. One of my fundamentalist Protestant friends has told me numerous times that I have this calling, since I have very little sexual desire, and that is why I should be involved in ministry. And I for years wanted to be a priest, but I can’t reconcile contradictions such as the one where the Church condemns someone for masturbating, yet doesn’t defrock priests for committing grievous sexual sins.
And let’s also remember what I was told at the seminary, TWICE, in March 1998 (four years before the sexual abuse scandal broke):
“It is wrong for a priest to have sex with a woman.”
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DrFloyd
Guest
You have summed up here the main thing that drove me away from going into the priesthood. What you say here is logical and rational. Thank you for posting it.
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Lycorth
Guest
All that matters is that I am speaking the truth and defending the position of God, which was revealed through the teachings of the Church.
I don’t know why being “broad” in one’s accusations is always such a horrible thing. Evidently, truth matters less in these days.
Which is pretty pathetic, with all due respect.
You gave up a potentially rich life of sacramental service to the Lord and His Church just because you couldn’t sleep with women or play with yourself?
What’s worse is that in your post prior to this you are using the sex abuse scandal to justify yourself, almost hiding behind a tragedy of the modern Church just to justify your own positions and un-Catholic opinions about chastity, masturbation, and the like.
I pray you will open your eyes and harden not your heart any more.
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IntegraCatholic
Guest
Non sequitur, non sequitur, non sequitur.
Morality is objective, not subjective. You can never do something that is intrinsically evil, regardless of the circumstances. For example, if there is an ectopic pregnancy, even if you may remove the zygote may be removed, but you can never physically destroy it.
Homosexuality is evil, but you cannot prevent it by resorting to self abuse.
Far from being healthy, self abuse is disordered and a worse sin than fornication because it is contrary to natural law, while fornication is a grave sin but not contrary to the primary precepts of natural law.
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DavidKays
Guest
Listen, my friend, you want to choose celibacy, fine, but who is it that is going to teach you that. Most people do not have that choice because they are not taught it. It is easy to say to King David or to anyone these are the choices. Are you going to tell everyone what choices they are. Are you going to take the time to teach to everyone? You know what to do for yourself and I congratulate you for that. It is good that you can do this. Committing yourself to Our Lord will definitely be a sign for the others. But not everyone has that benefit. We are not all alike. It is good that you have grown spiritually and keep it up. But do not let your guard down. Remember what happened to King David when he let his guard down. Yet even when King David did let his guard down the Lord still had Mercy on him. When I express what I do I usually refer to spiritual counseling to a person who is struggling with masturbation. Confession while fruitful in forgiving sin will not help when a person also needs the benefit of spiritual counsel. The benefits of a spiritual father can help a person better. Sure you go to Confession but it will be visits to a spiritual father that will help the most. The spiritual father can help by assisting the person eventually to overcome this habit. This is what I meant in my last 2 posts. The Orthodox Church while holding dear to the importance of the Sacrament of Holy Confession will also elevate spiritual counseling with a spiritual father as also a means for spiritual growth. The two go hand to hand. We all need the assistance of a spiritual father and that really was my major concern for the Church today and for writing those posts. I am not a Priest but am studying to become a Deacon. Please keep up your spiritual growth and remember how it is that you got there. God Bless!
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DrFloyd
Guest
You said this:
Some people don’t masturbate because of LUST. When they do, they have NO sexual connection to it at all. They masturbate because it is a biological NEED.
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Nope. I cannot, in good conscience, be a part of such a hypocritical organization. It’s hypocritical to deny a biological urge and condemn someone to hell for that, then allow others to violate other Church laws on sexuality with little to no punishment. What would Jesus say about that?
And by the way, the jury is still out on that. I’m talking to a vocations director on Saturday. I plan to bring this issue up with him, along with many others.
I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy which exists, and the double standard. What’s wrong with that? Why is that “un-Catholic”? I guess the Church doesn’t allow one to point out when it is being hypocritical.
I pray that you realize how hypocritical the Church really is, and not close your mind and harden your heart to that concept.
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OraLabora
Guest
Mercy. There’s that word seriously lacking in this discussion.
Your point above is very important. I know when I returned to the faith 13 years ago, I thought I too had grown spiritually from 0 to Catholic in a few short months, and could beat sin away with a stick. Then like you say, “I let my guard down”.
It took my dark night of the soul to make me realize that I was still the miserable sinner I always was.
But with one important distinction. I was no longer alone in my fight against sin. I knew that every time I fell I could pick myself up again and count on His infinite mercy.
But let me tell you the dark night of the soul, is Hell, because that’s when we lose faith in that mercy, and we feel that God has abandoned us. He hasn’t of course, but that’s what we feel.
I have a funny feeling that many on this list haven’t been through their dark night of the soul. If you read St John of the Cross, it’s an essential waypoint on the path to spiritual maturity. I am convinced that anyone who has lived through it, will show considerable more mercy than the spiritual soldiers of this list.
I can’t begrudge them their lack of mercy though, because I see myself so clearly in them. I used to be just like them. So in turn I should be more merciful to the non-merciful, because they’re just at a different point on the path of spiritual growth. So for my non-merciful replies I apologize. I will try to be more gentle in pointing out the need to be merciful to the sinners we all are.
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whm
Guest
We receive God’s mercy through confession. You are right that it may take some time to free oneself from a particular sin. However, what many are responding to is saying a serious sin is not a sin at all. Nobody is condemning anybody. If you commit this sin, go to confession, praise God for this wonderful gift of a sacrament, that will help defeat sin in our lives! A person who is fighting this using God’s sacraments as a tool, is not condemned if they get hit by a bus on the way to weekly confession if they are truly intending to live in accordance with God’s will and intending correct their lives. A person who decides good and evil for themselves and does not intend to go to confession or to amend their lives to God’s will could be in danger.
If we did not have to continually combat incorrect statements on this tread, we would hear a lot more about God’s compassion and the power of His forgiveness. I believe (or at least hope) that we all want whats best for everyone’s eternal soul.
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whm
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DrFloyd - Your “failure” image is uncalled for and not very mature. It is not going to win many people over to your point of view.
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OraLabora
Guest
Many folks have gone to confession on this topic and have been told (by more than one confessor) that confessing each and every incidence of this particular sin is not necessary but is being overly scrupulous. And not necessarily by “liberal” priests either. Some have been told that what counts is the effort… not a perfect result. For some a perfect result may be unattainable.
I am certainly not saying it is not sinful. I’m not denying it is perhaps seriously sinful. I am saying though that we cannot know the state of a particular sinner’s soul, and we therefore can never come out with the blanket statement “it is a mortal sin”. Everyone who has come here asking about this sin has been told by more than one poster that it is “a mortal sin”, which is in fact not at all what the Church teaches in the CCC.
In short, it really is an issue between the penitent and the confessor; the latter will also be able to discern when heroic efforts to overcome a very common habit, end up descending into the sin of scrupulosity.
The correct answer according to the Church would be is “it is a gravely disordered act, and under certain conditions may be a mortal sin, only your confessor can determine if that is your case”. It is never right for a layperson to say “you committed a mortal sin”, because that implies a level of judgement that belongs only to God, who can speak sacramentally through a confessor. And if a person is in doubt that they sinned mortally, then simply advise them to go to confession. If the confessor determines you’re being overly scrupulous for your particular circumstances, then follow his advice!
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whm
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I would more or less agree with this statement, but that is not what people are reacting to. They are reacting to statements that would cut out the step of discussing it specifically with your confessor. Or that something that is a sin is not a sin at all, very dangerous for a young person to read such statements. For people struggling with this find a confessor that actually will say something about your struggles, if it isn’t a once in a blue moon slip up and a habitual thing, tell him about how your are struggling, how it makes you feel, they, especially the newer ones now receive training on how to help you and can have very good advice. They can help you avoid becoming discouraged and.or defeated.
If a definitive act is completed, a person is not being scrupulous, scrupulosity can creep in when mistaking temptation with sin for actual sin, again going to regular (same) faithful confessor and is the best way to discern this as well.
For the record I have never been told not to confess this sin. I’ve have zero response and stern response but never that is not necessary to confess.
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IntegraCatholic
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This is false. It is necessary at least to mention whether or not the self abuse resulted in pollution or not (it would be assumed unless mentioned), and the number of times must always be confessed. To say that a perfect result is impossible is to deny the grace of and the free will of the person.
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shaky
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MtnDwellar
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I have been reading this thread. I came to it with the firm idea that masturbation is sinful. I also believe, as the catechism states, that some factors may reduce culpability. Some valid points have been raised on both sides.
I have concluded that it in no way pleases God. At best, it is morally neutral. I have no problem with trying to hold myself to higher standard. Even if it is neutral, I am willing to bet that avoiding it with the intention of doing God’s will, is pleasing.
I have concluded that it in no way pleases God. At best, it is morally neutral. I have no problem with trying to hold myself to higher standard. Even if it is neutral, I am willing to bet that avoiding it with the intention of doing God’s will, is pleasing.
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OraLabora
Guest
So, does this apply to all sins as well?
Show me someone who claims to attain a perfect result on all aspects of his or her life, and and you are showing me a liar.
Not even the saints were sinless.
The fact that we are incapable of a perfect result is why He sent us a Redeemer.
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whm
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Sin involves acts of the will, we do not have to be perfect at every aspect to be sinless. For example one could be a terrible golfer and not be sinful because of it. I don’t know of any saint that claimed to be perfect or sinless, they are all very humble about their sinfulness, yet strive to achieve sinless lives.
Jesus and Mary were sinless. As are baptized children who die before they have the ability to commit sin. Many saints of course have sinned, but later in life became great saints. It is where we end up that matters, not where we have been. Once the attachment and temporal consequences of sin are gone, it no longer matters. However, the more deeply we involve ourselves in sin, the more difficult it is to remove the attachment/consequences.
But we must not deny or limit the power of the Grace of our Redeemer. If we accept it fully, His Grace is enough to overcome all sin in our lives. We are called to try to become “perfect”, to become christ-like. We all should be a heroic according to our state in life as Mother Teresa (I have a longggg way to go). If we die with imperfections remaining on our soul, our cleansing is completed in Purgatory. “Nothing unclean will enter heaven.”
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