Masturbation....Or not?

[OraLabora]

We all should be a heroic according to our state in life as Mother Teresa (I have a longggg way to go). If we die with imperfections remaining on our soul, our cleansing is completed in Purgatory. “Nothing unclean will enter heaven.”

Ahh but you must know then that Mother Teresa was filled, for the longest time, with doubt; that she could also be a miserable curmudgeon and a real pain to work with.

In other words, she was very imperfect, and very human.

Yet she did great things out of love for fellow humans and especially out love for God. So we judge her not on how good she was at avoiding sin. We judge her on her great accomplishments for, and total dedication to, the poor.

In short, we judge her (positively) on how she loved. Wasn’t that the greatest commandment? To love one another as He has loved us? Isn’t that ultimately we will be judged and obtain our reward, not on how empty our cup of sin was, but on how full our cup of love was?

I am not of course saying we should embrace sin, in fact quite the contrary. But I am saying that none of us is without it, and the counterbalance to sin, is love.

 

[Roy5]

IntegraCatholic

  You say that anything 'intrinsically evil' is always evil. Gosh, it seems to me that a variety of things that generally are wrong, perhaps even evil, may change with the circumstances.

 What about stealing? The Ten Commandments condemn stealing outright. But our CIA and FBI pay big bucks to secret agents to steal secret documents. 

 What about keeping the Sabbath? How 'objective' is that commandment? To Orthodox Jews this means no fire on the Sabbath. They can't even snap on a light switch, light an oven, or turn on a radio TV.  Some Christians believe it is a sin to miss Mass on a Sunday. Others disagree. Some even consider it a sin to go to a movie on the Sabbath? Where is the simple objectivity in that? 

 Many moral issues aren't that simple. What if a wife buys a new dress and asks you how you like it? Do you tell her the truth when you don't like it? Often in our personal lives kindness and love come before full honesty - and they should. Hm!

 Take war. Frankly, I think that is an objective evil. But when 9/11 happened, we had to take military action. Yet, in my mind, when we invaded Iraq in 2003 such military action was stupid, wasteful of precious lives (military and civilian), and injurious to our national interest (for many reasons), And what about Christ's admonition to 'turn the other cheek" or "agree with thine afversary quickly"? When a bully hassles someone at school? 

 Now, if you want to call masturbation "self-abuse" you already make a harsh judgment. As an addiction, yes, it should be guarded against. But for many teenagers, certainly teenage boys, young adult singles, and many widows and widowers - even married men, say, away from home in the military for a long period - it is a momentary and quite normal indulgence, a little bit of understandable and excusable lust. For the Church to make it a big deal is the height of foolishness.

  Probably no issue - at least before the sex scandal - has done more to injure Catholicism in the eyes of reasonable people than what comes across as an unhealthy attitude toward sex, including the strict forbidding of 'artificial birth control'.  And an encyclical dignifying sex within marriage is inadequate. Part of the problem, I suspect, can be traced to a celibate hierarchy, many of whom have a problem with their own sexuality, none of whom live a healthy sex life. A good (or rotten?) example is this Msgr. who was idolized as leader of the Legionaires, It comes out that he had a child or two on the side - when he wasn't molesting boys!!!

  Is that hierarchy in a position to lecture those who try to sincerely seek to serve Christ but occasionally indulge in a few minutes of masturbation to quell their sexual impulses? Give humankind a break! They confront far more serious challenges. And there are far more important concerns for the Church to focus on.

  God bless all his people - which includes people of every color, creed and country. May religion become a bridge rather than a barrier.

 

[DrFloyd]

IntegraCatholicNow, if you want to call masturbation “self-abuse” you already make a harsh judgment. As an addiction, yes, it should be guarded against. But for many teenagers, certainly teenage boys, young adult singles, and many widows and widowers - even married men, say, away from home in the military for a long period - it is a momentary and quite normal indulgence, a little bit of understandable and excusable lust. For the Church to make it a big deal is the height of foolishness.

Why does everyone insist on calling it LUST?? Prove to me that ALL masturbation is linked to lust.

 

[funion987]

Can someone explain what

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability”

means?

 

[whm]

Can someone explain what

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability”

means?

To me it means the priest makes a judgment based on the relevant facts as to whether it was a mortal sin or not. This is part of their responsibility in the sacrament of confession.

 

[OAO]

The Church has nowhere claimed that it’s teaching on masturbation in infallible. The only infallible teachings are ecumenical councils and ex cathedra pronouncements - there is also the ordinary and universal magisterium, but this is hard to establish since the teaching must be held definitively and Canon Law requires that no teaching is to be considered infallible unless clearly established as such.

 

[whm]

Ahh but you must know then that Mother Teresa was filled, for the longest time, with doubt; that she could also be a miserable curmudgeon and a real pain to work with.

In other words, she was very imperfect, and very human.

Yet she did great things out of love for fellow humans and especially out love for God. So we judge her not on how good she was at avoiding sin. We judge her on her great accomplishments for, and total dedication to, the poor.

In short, we judge her (positively) on how she loved. Wasn’t that the greatest commandment? To love one another as He has loved us? Isn’t that ultimately we will be judged and obtain our reward, not on how empty our cup of sin was, but on how full our cup of love was?

I am not of course saying we should embrace sin, in fact quite the contrary. But I am saying that none of us is without it, and the counterbalance to sin, is love.

Yes the point is that despite troubles and difficulties, she kept climbing until the end. Human imperfection does not equal sin. Nor does emotional responses. How we choose to act or not act does equal sin. Sin is choosing against God and against authentic love. I bring her up because life is hard, and it is hard to do the right thing. We are to strive for spiritual joy and spiritual peace not necessarily personal happiness. We are to pick up our cross and follow Him.

Your cup analogy is good, but i would submit it is the same cup. To the extent we minimize sin in our lives, our capacity to love increases. Many sins boil down to a love of self over others, masturbation included.

 

[DavidKays]

Can someone explain what

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability”

means?

I hope I can relate some experiences to you that can help you with an answer. First of all I will like to say to some in these posts that masturbation is not always lust. You want to argue with me on this then talk to the Pope because if you have understood the Late Holy Father John Paul II and the present Holy Father Benedict XVI in their writings they will be able to correct you. Now back to your question. In his book " Community and Growth " by Jean Vanier ( who is a modern day saint ) he mentions that many of the mentally disabled persons living in the L’Arche Community were masturbating. Now this saintly man did not have to get a priest to fix up this problem. He knew that the reasons were not of lust but because of the unfortunate rejection of their own families. The problem really came from the outside from their own families. This lack of love was shown to them and since their disability can be seen from others so the rejection can occur from others. Now can any of you will condemn these people. Will you want to call what they are doing a mortal sin? Can’t you see that these people are responding to their own lack of love that they richly deserve to receive yet because of their condition are rejected. Masturbation then can be seen as a symptom of the serious problem of people in this case families rejecting their own children or relatives. It is not always lust Ok. There are many people with other mental disabilities especially among the mentally ill, those with Bipolar and other mental disorders. Now you cannot blame these people when they are masturbating. I am sure God doesn’t. This is why that second part was put in the catechism. There are many factors today to take in account. That is what God wants us to do. To take in account what people may be going through. I wish the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church did not go their separate ways 1000 years ago. The Eastern Church has a more balanced view on sex than the Catholic Church. Her Saints are enormous in talking about the great gift God gave to us that is the sexual experience. When used properly it can be the greatest expression of love that is between a man and a woman. In fact the Eastern Saints have said that when the two, man and woman become one especially in the act of sexual experience, this reflects to our own experience of oneness with Our Lord. The two become one as in the case of a married couple and also in the case of our relationship before God for in Heaven you will be one with God. Same thing but in a spiritual manner. The great Eastern Church Father St.John Chrysostom is one Church Father that can help you understand better and has reflected much discussion to it. His writings would have helped St.Augustine to have a better view on sex and on original sin. To put it plainly the Catholic Church must correct herself to the line of teaching the Eastern Saints have brought. I am referring only to this problem Catholics seem to have regarding sex and to original sin. The Orthodox can correct eventually this imbalance in your teaching and will do so when the two Churches will finally end their feud and formally be reconciled which I believe will occur soon. You Catholics have so much to offer us and I believe we can do the same for you. God Bless!

 

[OraLabora]

Your cup analogy is good, but i would submit it is the same cup. To the extent we minimize sin in our lives, our capacity to love increases. Many sins boil down to a love of self over others, masturbation included.

We all have a love of self. The survival instinct, and the “fight or flee” instincts are to a certain extent “love of self” and is not necessarily a bad thing.

Beyond the instincts, we all have blind spots where we elevate ourselves at the expense of others. To an extent you’re right, but to another extreme, I have seen some incredibly sinful people also show great humanity and love. Human life is unfortunately very messy, it isn’t always either/or.

But you’re right to the extent that it is an uphill climb. For some, it is very gradual, others manage to make it on a much steeper slope.

In the Bible some of the most compelling and loving characters have been the greatest sinners as well: think of the Good Samaritan, the samaritan woman at the well, the publican and the Pharisee, and for me at least, one of the most enigmatic but charismatic characters in the Bible, King David. I do think that some with cups very full of sin can also have cups very full of love.

One of the best examples in my own life was my late father-in-law, a man I greatly admired. He was a family doctor, and to many on the surface he seemed like a bitter and angry man. He spent most of the Second World War, from age 16 to 20, in a Japanese concentration camp.

But for those who took the trouble to see beneath the surface, the found a heart of gold. To see that man when he held his first grandson in his arms would make anyone’s heart melt.

We all have things that poisoned our past that result in our blind spots and our sinfulness. But we also have the capacity to love. I have found many “religious” folk that concentrate on only the sin do in fact lose the capacity to love. It’s what often makes people think of us Christians as hypocrites.

Could it be that it works the other way around, as we increase our capacity to love, that is when the desire or need to sin decreases?

 

[Lycorth]

Why does everyone insist on calling it LUST?? Prove to me that ALL masturbation is linked to lust.

It’s usually the case, since masturbation is generally done for sexual self-pleasure, which necessarily involves lusting after mental imagery that is conjured up during the act or pornography that is used during it.

One can masturbate simply for the sexual pleasure that comes with the act, but lust figures, one might say, into the vast majority of individual acts of masturbation that take place. It’s not an absolute prerequisite, but seems to be the rule - the rule to which there is the odd exception.

 

[OraLabora]

It’s usually the case, since masturbation is generally done for sexual self-pleasure, which necessarily involves lusting after mental imagery that is conjured up during the act or pornography that is used during it.

One can masturbate simply for the sexual pleasure that comes with the act, but lust figures, one might say, into the vast majority of individual acts of masturbation that take place. It’s not an absolute prerequisite, but seems to be the rule - the rule to which there is the odd exception.

Absolutely wrong.

Masturbation can be used:

To relieve stress
To overcome insomnia (safer than sleeping pills!)
To control one’s libido and avoid occasions of sin with others especially in absence of a spouse or when one’s spouse is unable to engage in marital relations
To help cope with loneliness

among others.

It does not always involve porn. Do you think that those who masturbated 200 years ago used porn? It wasn’t readily available then. Lusting after mental imagery? How about imagining past of future lovemaking with one’s spouse? Is that wrong? Is that lust? Sure some masturbation involves lust.

By no means all of it though.

 

[DrFloyd]

Sure some masturbation involves lust.

By no means all of it though.

Yup. So why should it be condemned, if lust is not a component?

 

[Timothy17]

You know what, there is one enlightening aspect to wrestling with habitual sin: it makes us look at the root causes, what leads to it, etc. We find how the “little” and “trivial” things, if we accept or rationalize them, which rationalization or acceptance quickly become the brooding ground for bigger and worse things.

The real danger in sin is the mixed feelings of guilt afterward that can scandalize us. Guilt is good - it draws us to Confession, to join with Christ in condemning our sin; however, it can also latch on the human stubborness and encourage disbelief and abondonment.

Jacob “wrestled with God” and for that was named “Israel.” The Spirit of Israel is, quite literally, a wrestling with God - but don’t give up, and keep wrestling with Him. God is always for us and on our side; even when we are opposed to him. Perseverance is the greatest character builder known to man. Our sins, though evil, can yet be cause to humble ourselves and strenghten us - a combination that, in truth, is Godly (Jesus was meek and yet he continued to the end).

So, keep wrestling, and with Faith know that we are destined to overcome sin, even death.

 

[Timothy17]

Absolutely wrong.

Masturbation can be used:

To relieve stress
To overcome insomnia (safer than sleeping pills!)
To control one’s libido and avoid occasions of sin with others especially in absence of a spouse or when one’s spouse is unable to engage in marital relations
To help cope with loneliness

among others.

It does not always involve porn. Do you think that those who masturbated 200 years ago used porn? It wasn’t readily available then. Lusting after mental imagery? How about imagining past of future lovemaking with one’s spouse? Is that wrong? Is that lust? Sure some masturbation involves lust.

By no means all of it though.

Picture Jesus in your mind. I promise you the temptation and desire will fast pass.

The only thing worse than sinning is rationalizing that it’s not a sin or re-engineering Church teaching to make it “okay”. That’s sin and heresy.

We all must deal with temptation. But let’s not deal with it by pretending it’s not what it is.

 

[OraLabora]

We all must deal with temptation. But let’s not deal with it by pretending it’s not what it is.

Fine. But also let’s not pretend that it is always about lust.

It may be equally wrong to do it for reasons other than lust.

But it is wrong to say that people do it exclusively for lust.

 

[Lycorth]

Absolutely wrong.

Excuse me? My remarks are not *absolutely *wrong because I did not make any absolute statements. Please read more carefully next time.

Masturbation can be used:

To relieve stress

What kind of stress? A bad day at work? Hey, had a hard day at the office - gotta go home and pull my pud. Sorry, doesn’t compute; stress can be relieved through prayer, meditation, exercise, or any number of things that do not involve the deliberate misuse of the sexual organ.

If this is not the sort of “stress” you mean, then you must mean sexual stress, which can be relieved through training oneself to think pure thoughts and eschew lustful ones. Which is why lust factors into most cases of masturbation.

To overcome insomnia (safer than sleeping pills!)

I’ve never heard of masturbation used to cure insomnia. Can’t sleep, gotta play with myself - seriously, who on earth thinks like that, even compulsive masturbators?

Coming from someone who masturbated compulsively for over thirty years, I don’t buy that.

To control one’s libido and avoid occasions of sin with others especially in absence of a spouse or when one’s spouse is unable to engage in marital relations

God, through the Church, teaches us self-control and morality as the only real antidote to avoiding occasions of sin. Masturbation has never been accepted as this any more than aggravated assault helps us avoid the occasion of sin of murder.

Our Lord tells us that if we so much as look upon a woman with lustful thoughts, we commit adultery with her in our hearts. Ergo, lustful thoughts are wickedly sinful in and of themselves - therefore, it follows that masturbating, which involves deliberate stimulation of the genitals in order to achieve orgasmic climax, is one hell of an occasion of sin to indulge in lustful thoughts.

To help cope with loneliness

Self-pity because one is not romantically attached doesn’t give anyone the right to abuse themselves. Loneliness itself is not a sin, either.

among others.

I’m listening.

It does not always involve porn. Do you think that those who masturbated 200 years ago used porn? It wasn’t readily available then.

I said it doesn’t always involve porn or even lust. Or didn’t you bother to read my post?

Lusting after mental imagery? How about imagining past of future lovemaking with one’s spouse? Is that wrong? Is that lust? Sure some masturbation involves lust.

If it is not lust, it’s an occasion of it - making up pretend images of a spouse who exists only in your mind is living in a fantasy world, not reality, and it most certainly can involve lust and the degradation of a woman (even a virtual woman) into an object of sexual gratification, which we can do to our actual wives.

I’m sorry if you’re lonely but that is no excuse to sin or deny Church teaching.

By no means all of it though.

You mean like my post said?

Yup. So why should it be condemned, if lust is not a component?

Because lust usually is a component, and it doesn’t have to involve lust to be a deliberate misuse of the sexual faculty which God designed for a specific purpose.

 

[Bbigam]

I’ve never heard of masturbation used to cure insomnia. Can’t sleep, gotta play with myself - seriously, who on earth thinks like that, even compulsive masturbators?

Coming from someone who masturbated compulsively for over thirty years, I don’t buy that.

This is a great post. I have to admit, though, that I made the “I can’t sleep” excuse to myself a number of times back in the day. It wasn’t right and didn’t really work, but I can understand using it as an excuse since I’ve done it myself.

 

[OraLabora]

I’m sorry if you’re lonely but that is no excuse to sin or deny Church teaching.

I was not speaking of my personal experience.

I am married to a wonderful woman, have three great sons, and a wide circle of friends in my professional, recreational and church circles.

 

[aperture]

I’ve never heard of masturbation used to cure insomnia. Can’t sleep, gotta play with myself - seriously, who on earth thinks like that, even compulsive masturbators?

Orgasm does result in the release of many hormones, some of which encourage sleep.

 

[DavidKays]

I just like to say that been in both Churches ( East and West ) has taught me that Catholics by and large deal alot with punishment, guilt and what I call lawyer stuff, too much on justice and the law and not enough on mercy and compassion. You want to know the biggest difference between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church. We tend to be more compassionate and merciful. I find in the Catholic Church, not all the time, a fixation on the law and not much on Mercy. May by it is the way you are taught. Probably the split between East and West, had it been avoided you will not be thinking the way you are today. You Catholics tend to deal too much on the sin without regards to Mercy. I am not talking to the Catholic Church but to many individual Catholics. I am writing a book on this East/West situation and one parallel that I am suggesting is this. The Catholic Church resembles more feminine and the Orthodox Church more masculine. It is like the Western Church acts more like a woman, the Eastern Church more like a man or to put it even more depth, the Catholic Church acts more like a wife, and the Orthodox Church more like a husband. We the Orthodox tend to be more merciful ( not all the time ). You Catholics tend to be more on the side of justice ( and again not all the time ) and if you put the two togther ( Orthodox and Catholic ) you may get a perfect marriage relationship. Do you get what I mean? Just ask any single mother or father. It’s tough raising children on your own. May by that is why God permitted this East and West in the Church so that one can balance out the other, to be supportive of the other. Sometimes the wife can be hard on her children so the father steps in to make it better or when a father finds it difficult the wife can lend her support. This is how I explain why it is necessary for us Orthodox to come back to full Communion with the Catholic Church. This is allegorically a marriage relationship that has been terribly seperated 1000 years ago and now through marital counseling we can be engaged back to that beautiful marriage God has attended for us. There is nothing wrong in being the wife as there is being a husband. You both need each other. Catholics tend to be more like the wife and the Orthodox like the husband. And if you think like this remember that women by and large tend to be that way to when dealing with children when the children are acting wrong ( somewhat severe at times when correcting them ). Men can be a source of strenth when the children need to be corrected. What I am saying is this. We need to go back to each other ( Catholics and Orthodox ) so as to have back that marriage relationship we had in the beginning so as help each other raising our children that is those persons who are in both Churches. This is why I suggested in this forum that the Catholic Church must incline herself to the teaching on sex from the Orthodox Church so as to have a better judgement and not be too severe on those struggling with masturbation. I hope I did not come upsetting anyone. I just think we need to understand the whole picture in the light of both our Churches. God Bless!