Masturbation....Or not?

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It seems a lot of you are talking about masturbation from a male’s perspective. Women – every woman I know, also do this. As a woman, it is something I have had to deal with and conquer myself. But throwing things like “lust is always involved” is absolute nonsense. If you are giving your opinion, fine, but don’t ever say things like that as stated as fact. At least from my female perspective, lust was never involved. Ever.

I do think because it never involved lust for me, it was very hard to accept when I learned it was a mortal sin. To be honest, I still don’t get it, but because the Church has said so, I have no choice but to accept it. If it involved lust, I could completely understand the sinful nature of that. But I personally equated it with more of doing anything else we humans do that feel good but don’t really serve any other purpose… having dessert, having a foot rub or massage, scratching a mosquito bite.

It would really go a lot further to get your points across to non-Catholics, returning Catholics, or to Catholics that simply weren’t educated in this area, if you could get to the heart of it, and not the constant citings from the CCC or say “the Church says so.” Most of the people I know are not Catholic, so citing the CCC or because my Church says so doesn’t help them understand our faith.
 
It seems a lot of you are talking about masturbation from a male’s perspective. Women – every woman I know, also do this. As a woman, it is something I have had to deal with and conquer myself. But throwing things like “lust is always involved” is absolute nonsense. If you are giving your opinion, fine, but don’t ever say things like that as stated as fact. At least from my female perspective, lust was never involved. Ever.

I do think because it never involved lust for me, it was very hard to accept when I learned it was a mortal sin. To be honest, I still don’t get it, but because the Church has said so, I have no choice but to accept it. If it involved lust, I could completely understand the sinful nature of that. But I personally equated it with more of doing anything else we humans do that feel good but don’t really serve any other purpose… having dessert, having a foot rub or massage, scratching a mosquito bite.

It would really go a lot further to get your points across to non-Catholics, returning Catholics, or to Catholics that simply weren’t educated in this area, if you could get to the heart of it, and not the constant citings from the CCC or say “the Church says so.” Most of the people I know are not Catholic, so citing the CCC or because my Church says so doesn’t help them understand our faith.
Excellent points, and that’s more or less what I’ve been saying. Saying “because the Church says so” might be easy to say, but it does little to further genuine understanding.

I am male, and I can also say categorically that lust is not always involved, and in many cases, not even frequently involved. Sure it is sometimes. But it is wrong to say “always” and to say, for instance that masturbation is always associated with pornography, even among men. Men have been doing it since long before any form of visual “pornography” was invented.
 
I don’t know if anyone is still checking this thread, but I’ve been thinking a lot about this recently.

I’m hardly an ignorant Catholic. I grew up in a very orthodox home, I’ve taught CCD and religion classes, been involved in online apologetics, and have a BA in Theology from Franciscan University. I’ve taken classes specifically on the nature of Christian Marriage.

And until a year or two ago, I didn’t question anything. Then things changed.

OraLabora, you wrote:

*I have a funny feeling that many on this list haven’t been through their dark night of the soul. If you read St John of the Cross, it’s an essential waypoint on the path to spiritual maturity. I am convinced that anyone who has lived through it, will show considerable more mercy than the spiritual soldiers of this list. *

That is where I am, and I haven’t read St. John yet, but I think I need to. I have a feeling of distance from God and detachment from the Church that I’ve never experienced before. While I’ve had my struggles with faith, it never took long for me to come back around. I just innately gravitated toward the Church and her teachings, and always found my way back to God. But in this past couple years, feeling so far from His presence, I’ve begun to question things on the basis of whether or not they make sense to me. And Catholic sexual teaching strikes me as deficient from a logical standpoint.

This entire discussion is hinting at a significant question that lies at the center of the whole debate: why does the Church teach that every sexual act must be a marital, procreative act?

I first began to really wonder about this question myself during my wife’s last pregnancy. When we had the opportunity to be intimate, the question was moot - there was no possibility of another conception. I found myself repeatedly questioning how such marital acts were procreative in any substantive way, and subsequently, why it was strictly necessary that they reached completion within the context of intercourse.

My understanding of the Church’s teaching on the necessity of every marital act being open to life is one of nature - namely, that the nature of a man’s sexual faculty is essentially life-giving, and therefore it is, as the Church says, “gravely disordered” to order such an act intentionally to a non-procreative end.

But nature seems to tell us otherwise. Pregnancy is one example, but so is the infertility in a woman’s cycle, to a lesser extent. While this latter is less certain, NFP advocates certainly claim that it’s more effective than any artificial method, making it statistically highly improbable (when used correctly) that it will be substantively procreative, even if it is technically “open to life”.

Then, also, there is the nature of a man’s reproductive system. Nocturnal emissions are a part of every man’s life, provided that he is engaged in no sexual activity for prolonged periods of time. The body naturally creates an involuntary context for orgasm to expel excess semen because the buildup, one assumes, isn’t good for us. If our body, in virtue of its very nature, “spills seed” because of a biological necessity to do so, how does this fit in with the absolute necessity for every male orgasm to be procreative?

I know some will argue that it’s the very involuntary aspect that changes things, but I’m arguing from nature here - nature provides us with exceptions to the rule, so the rule, by definition, cannot be absolute from the standpoint of nature.

Now, there are various reasons why a man might want to masturbate. Release of sexual tension can be high among them, especially if occasions of intimacy with one’s wife are infrequent for various reasons. But there is also the aspect so emphasized in the Theology of the Body crowd, namely, the importance of bringing one’s wife to climax. The provision for doing so after the man has finished is, to be frank, unappealing. One would hope that a mutual experience like marital intimacy could bring both spouses to conclusion together. Masturbation is most often prescribed as a remedy to premature ejaculation - which I think most men will tell you is more likely the longer they go without sex - and can thus lead to a more enriching procreative intimacy between both spouses on such occasions as they do have together.

I admit that I never struggled with this sin before I was married. I followed a strict, “because the Church says so” scrupulosity, and avoided impurity like the plague - largely because my sexual appetite was strong, and thus needed strong control. But after the psychological release that came with marriage, and my wife’s frequent comments to me that I was “too sensitive” to various sexual stimuli - be it her touch, or the sight of a naked woman on a movie, etc. - I let my guard down more. I wanted to be desensitized, because it felt unhealthy to be so sensitive, and so riddled with guilt for every fall.

To this day, I find that when I do fall into the sin of masturbation, I make an immediate act of contrition to God, but one wherein I indicate to Him that I sincerely do not understand the logic of why this sin offends Him. I can’t imagine that it pleases Him, and I do sense that it is a selfish act, but I struggle with the inherent logic (or lack thereof) in the teaching on it. As someone mentioned in another comment, it seems that the punishment does not fit the crime, and something that is such a natural temptation (and not likely to be naturally avoided without the guidance of the Church, thus indicating that it is not a strong point of natural law) seems hard to describe as “gravely disordered” and soul-destroying.

I don’t want to find justification for a sin I sometimes struggle with. I want faith not to contradict reason, and I’m having a very hard time with that.
 
Doubting Catholic
I share some of your sentiments and occasionally the logic of some Chuch teaching escapes me…take for example, abc, we all know the Church’s teaching and its stance that abc is an intrinsic evil…yet at the same time the Church states that people of other faiths can be saved…this implies that a married Lutheran,for example, who is allowed to use abc in his religion, is not held accountable for doing the same thing a Catholic would go to hell for…if an act is truly intrinsically evil, shouldn’t the consequences of its use apply to people of all faiths? It just doesn’t make sense… I posed this question to a priest who has a regular column in a weekly Catholic paper… he responded, in private email, that it didn’t make sense to him either…also said that maybe I, as Catholic, would be going against my conscience while the Lutheran would not,however that is based on the assumption that my conscience thinks abc is wrong, and I don’t believe that…
 
Excellent points, and that’s more or less what I’ve been saying. Saying “because the Church says so” might be easy to say, but it does little to further genuine understanding.

I am male, and I can also say categorically that lust is not always involved, and in many cases, not even frequently involved. Sure it is sometimes. But it is wrong to say “always” and to say, for instance that masturbation is always associated with pornography, even among men. Men have been doing it since long before any form of visual “pornography” was invented.
Yes, I agree. The “lust” and “pornography” arguments against masturbation, though often made, simply don’t hold up. I have never heard a rational explanation as to why the practice is inherently evil; it always comes down to some version of “because the Church says so”.
 
Yes, I agree. The “lust” and “pornography” arguments against masturbation, though often made, simply don’t hold up. I have never heard a rational explanation as to why the practice is inherently evil; it always comes down to some version of “because the Church says so”.
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

How is this not a sufficient answer?
 
Because lust usually is a component, and it doesn’t have to involve lust to be a deliberate misuse of the sexual faculty which God designed for a specific purpose.
Can you prove that self-gratification is not a purpose the the sexual faculty? How do you know God’s intentions in designing it, or that it might not have more than one purpose?
 
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

How is this not a sufficient answer?
It’s just another version of “because the Church says so”.
 
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

How is this not a sufficient answer?
Because this argument hinges on one accepting Church authority in the matter - in order to believe that the sexual faculty is solely marital and procreative, one has to believe in the Church. Therefore, this is, as DC put it, akin to saying “because the Church said so.”
 
Can you prove that self-gratification is not a purpose the the sexual faculty? How do you know God’s intentions in designing it, or that it might not have more than one purpose?
Because… wait for it… the Church said so.

Not being sarcastic with that - but as Catholics, ultimately, everything comes down to that. We believe X because the Church dogmatically defined X - because God guided the Church to dogmatically define X. Then, if we must have a deeper explanation, we examine various causes and effects and so forth - but it always does come down to that.

Jesus said that those of us who are His will hear His word and obey. That is not limited to a single volume of texts called the Holy Bible, but to all of dogmatic Church teaching, for all of that is just as guided by the Holy Spirit as the writers of Scripture were. We are content therefore to say that we believe X because the Church said so - because God moved the Church to say so in the first place, and we are obeying God when we obey the Church.

Otherwise… what God has defined as a mortal sin is really not because you say so? How does that follow? The door swings both ways.
 
As an unmarried male adult who struggles with erotic attraction to certain older boys or certain young men to this day, I have always seen, though not always accepted, church teaching regarding masturbation. It is a very slippery slope for me when I decide to be my own pope on this matter. It has led in the past to use of pornography and acting out with other males, which in turn has only further fed addictive lust thoughts. The best answer is to abide by church teaching,avail oneself of the sacrament of reconciliation as needed,pray daily, and leave everything in the hands of God everyday!
 
Because… wait for it… the Church said so.

Not being sarcastic with that - but as Catholics, ultimately, everything comes down to that. We believe X because the Church dogmatically defined X - because God guided the Church to dogmatically define X. Then, if we must have a deeper explanation, we examine various causes and effects and so forth - but it always does come down to that.

Jesus said that those of us who are His will hear His word and obey. That is not limited to a single volume of texts called the Holy Bible, but to all of dogmatic Church teaching, for all of that is just as guided by the Holy Spirit as the writers of Scripture were. We are content therefore to say that we believe X because the Church said so - because God moved the Church to say so in the first place, and we are obeying God when we obey the Church.

Otherwise… what God has defined as a mortal sin is really not because you say so? How does that follow? The door swings both ways.
This is a fine explanation for Catholics… it is how we live because it is our faith.

But can you understand how hard this is to explain to someone who is not Catholic? It is hard to have a discussion with someone when you take reasoning out of it. I find it difficult to follow myself, much less evangelize to non-believers. “Because the Church says so,” just isn’t sufficient unless you are ALREADY a believer… and a strong one at that.
 
“Because the Church says so,” just isn’t sufficient unless you are ALREADY a believer… and a strong one at that.
Many believers who are “strong ones” may be so on a particular point of Church teaching but invariably fall short in some other area of Church teaching.

Bottom line is that we are all sinners, for some it is masturbation, others lust for power or money, compulsive lying, stealing, calumny, gossip, alcohol issues, lack of charity, fornication, etc. to name a few off the top of my head.

For some reason many here have an obsession with sins of the flesh.

I suppose obsession in itself is sinful.
 
This is a fine explanation for Catholics… it is how we live because it is our faith.

But can you understand how hard this is to explain to someone who is not Catholic? It is hard to have a discussion with someone when you take reasoning out of it. I find it difficult to follow myself, much less evangelize to non-believers. “Because the Church says so,” just isn’t sufficient unless you are ALREADY a believer… and a strong one at that.
Sadly, that is the case. How does the Scripture go - no one can confess that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Spirit? Without being moved by God and without being open to His Spirit and guidance, we can’t even understand that Christ is Christ, let alone that masturbation, or any sin, is wrong. A mind and heart closed to what God wants will not even admit the most simple fact and teaching of Christianity, much less a more advanced one about a specific sin.

But, that does indicate that those who defend certain sins and fail to realize that they are sins to begin with need to be open-minded, need to consider that they may be wrong and consider that a particular teaching exists for a reason. After all, none of us who now assent to the Church’s teaching on even the most difficult-seeming of sins came to our belief without daring to question modern convention on the matter.

It’s essentially taking the phrase “question authority”, turning it around, and using it on the “authority” of modern convention.
 
Of course, some of you will probably dismiss it outright as the minister isn’t Catholic; and, if so, that says a great deal.
Yes, it says that Catholics do not listen to non-Catholics over the Church. That’s what Catholics do.
 
We are all recovering addicts in some form or another. Pray more, go to confession (good to confess even venial sins) and try harder to avoid the near occasions.

That said, continuing down the current path will most likely lead to serious sin, so don’t think it is not that bad.​

As for prostatic congestion, I need to research that a bit more. But will say this - getting aroused w/o climaxing will hurt, and almost every teenage boy will discover this at some point. That is why the problem is lustful thoughts - they cause the arousal, that causes discomfort, that causes us to want to sin (and make the circle start over again).

I don’t know if the condition is worse in some, I do know that at one point in my sinful life (cohabitation and fornication) I managed to compound it with an infection that caused me to start to pass blood and clots of other stuff - which was VERY painful. My doctor told me to masturbate to increase blood (and antibiotic) flow to reduce the chance of becoming sterile from the infection. That said, I would have never gotten into that position if I was not sinning daily with my lustful lifestyle.
 
We are all recovering addicts in some form or another. Pray more, go to confession (good to confess even venial sins) and try harder to avoid the near occasions.
I had a priest years ago tear into me for talking to my friend Crystal about sex. He said it was a “near occasion of sin”.

Why is that? Someone please explain it to me.
 
Yes, it says that Catholics do not listen to non-Catholics over the Church. That’s what Catholics do.
So anything said at all by a non-Catholic religious person is worthless? What about someone like Billy Graham, or Ghandi?
 
But, that does indicate that those who defend certain sins and fail to realize that they are sins to begin with need to be open-minded, need to consider that they may be wrong and consider that a particular teaching exists for a reason.
Ahem? This from one who proclaims that the Church’s position can not possibly be in error, regardless of whether or not it seems right to any individual or group? That is a perfect example of ‘close-minded.’
 
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