Masturbation...why?

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NovusFidem said:
I can’t speak for God (neither do I question His decisions), but I hardly see why would He bother with those things. Animals can’t have morality, its not in their nature.
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So you think that perhaps God doesn’t really care about animals or the rest of His creation and that He only cares about human beings?
 
lileli said:
…Shouldn’t out knowledge of science influence Church teaching?
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So that would rule out the Resurrection, the Real Presence and any number of other tenets of the faith, wouldn’t it?

What piece of science runs counter to what the Church teaches on masturbation, IVF, fornication? The only piece of science I can think of in that regard is that these things are possible and people are keen to do them.
 
Thorolfr said:
So you think that perhaps God doesn’t really care about animals or the rest of His creation and that He only cares about human beings?
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As I said, animals don’t have free will. Whatever they do is not going to condemn them into eternal suffering. Lions can eat lion cubs, my cats can fornicate with their siblings - none of those actions is done with evil intent, for animals can’t do “evil” (moral evil).

See? Free will = moral being. No free will = amoral being.

Free will for dummies:

God cares about us in special because He wanted us to love Him.

To love Him, we **MUST **have the choice to do so. If He forced us, it wouldn’t be love. So, He gave us the CHOICE (= free will).

But, if He gives us the CHOICE, then we are 50% capable of NOT loving Him (=we can sin).

This is Bible 101. It says that God intended for **humans **to have free will, not every creature. Does that makes us special? Well… DUH! “Created in His image” and all that jazz!

PS: it is not a matter of caring. He cares about His creation - and if I understood Sirach 11:14 right, then He also created death. He created the cycle of life, the idea that life ends and life starts. Just because WE are too scared to face death, doesn’t mean that death is not a good thing. (specially since we have immortal souls - we die here and get a promotion!.. hopefully)

I mean, honestly: who wouldn’t WANT to die in a state of Grace and go directly meet the Lord??? It’s the freaking Creator of the Universe! The One Guy who spent an infinite amount of time creating YOU! He drew mountains, painted skies and filled oceans!

Honestly!

It’s better than meeting the Pope!
 
Many of you are completely discounting the intelligence of higher level mammals. Whales and dolphins show incredible intelligence that is they had a means to really manipulate their environment, they would give us a run for our money. To discount the splendor of the rest of animal kingdom(which we are apart of) is to have an arrogant view about humanity. It reminds when the earth being the center of the solar system was a vital teaching as well.
 
Rau said:
So that would rule out the Resurrection, the Real Presence and any number of other tenets of the faith, wouldn’t it?

What piece of science runs counter to what the Church teaches on masturbation, IVF, fornication? The only piece of science I can think of in that regard is that these things are possible and people are keen to do them.
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No it would not because those things are not testable by scientific method therefore it is not an area of science. Granted many scientists may find them silly but science cannot test or explain everything. Those matters are purely of faith. Faith that I have.
 
Wesrock said:
Yes, humans do and seem disposed towards doing a lot of disgusting things. That doesn’t make them moral.

And the Church doesn’t teach science. And science doesn’t teach morality.

Now, arguing about the authority of the Church… As a Catholic, yes your rejection of the Church being guarded by the Holy Spirit when proclaiming infallible doctrine is “so wrong” from our POV, but you’re no longer Catholic, and that’s another debate entirely, and should probably go in a different thread on the main apologetics board. And we’re not arguing a “because the Church said so” point only, anyway.
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I am a Catholic. I have been excommunicated and I have not left the Church.
 
lileli said:
No it would not because those things are not testable by scientific method therefore it is not an area of science. Granted many scientists may find them silly but science cannot test or explain everything. Those matters are purely of faith. Faith that I have.
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You raised science and suggested a requirement for it to influence Church teaching (not just its expression and context, but it’s substance). What scientific facts demand, in your view, a change to teaching in regard to, say, masturbation, fornication and the like. Are teachings on these things “testable” against scientific knowledge? What elements of teaching are in conflict with science?
 
lileli said:
Many of you are completely discounting the intelligence of higher level mammals. Whales and dolphins show incredible intelligence that is they had a means to really manipulate their environment, they would give us a run for our money. To discount the splendor of the rest of animal kingdom(which we are apart of) is to have an arrogant view about humanity. It reminds when the earth being the center of the solar system was a vital teaching as well.
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Discounting their intelligence to what end? :confused: I sense you again want to point to animal behaviours and draw conclusions about how we may behave…
 
I think the animal kingdom is beautiful and many of the animals are intelligent. I think creatures such as dolphins and bobobos deserve some level of rights, though they aren’t human persons. However, they don’t have souls and aren’t models of moral behavior.

Also, I apologize for mischaracterizing your religious affiliation, lileli.
 
Rau said:
You raised science and suggested a requirement for it to influence Church teaching. What scientific facts demand, in your view, a change to teaching in regard to, say, masturbation, fornication and the like. Are teachings on these things “testable” against scientific knowledge? What elements of teaching are in conflict with science?
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There are plenty of scientific studies that shiw that masturbating gas plenty of health benefits and is part of a fulling life. There are plenty of studies demonstratibg that the repression of sexuality has plenty of negative consequences for people, which may include secret addiction to sexual things. Yes, I will agree that if I’m trying to reach high levels of spritiulism then one should curb sexual outlets, but outside of this, there is nothing wrong with being in touch with one’s human side.
 
Rau said:
Discounting their intelligence to what end? :confused: I sense you again want to point to animal behaviours and draw conclusions about how we may behave…
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We are part of the animal kingdom and as much as we like to think otherwise, we have and all can still learn a lot about ourselves.
 
lileli said:
There are plenty of scientific studies that shiw that masturbating gas plenty of health benefits and is part of a fulling life. There are plenty of studies demonstratibg that the repression of sexuality has plenty of negative consequences for people, which may include secret addiction to sexual things. Yes, I will agree that if I’m trying to reach high levels of spritiulism then one should curb sexual outlets, but outside of this, there is nothing wrong with being in touch with one’s human side.
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“Repression of sexuality” - that means refraining from certain sexual acts does it??

Wow. So on a date, if you both feel inclined - don’t repress the sexual urge? Is that what follows? If watching a movie, and the scene gets a little steamy, and the young man reacts as men tend to do, don’t repress - relieve that tension!! Science says you must! :rolleyes:

Naturally it follows that gay sexual desires must not be denied either :rolleyes:
 
Rau said:
“Repression of sexuality” - that means refraining from certain sexual acts does it??

Wow. So on a date, if you both feel inclined - don’t repress the sexual urge? Is that what follows? If watching a movie, and the scene gets a little steamy, and the young man reacts as men tend to do, don’t repress - relieve that tension!! Science says you must! :rolleyes:

Naturally it follows that gay sexual desires must not be denied either :rolleyes:
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What! No! I mean being told that sec and sexual desires are bad. Being told that even having a wet dream is sinful. Being told to never explore your own body etc
 
Having self control and mental repression are two different things. I am for healthy sexuality
 
lileli said:
What! No! I mean being told that sec and sexual desires are bad. Being told that even having a wet dream is sinful. Being told to never explore your own body etc
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But sexual desires are not bad and wet dreams aren’t sinful. You’re right, being told that is wrong.

And I think everyone here believes in healthy sexuality. It’s just a difference over what is considered healthy.
 
lileli said:
What! No! I mean being told that sec and sexual desires are bad. Being told that even having a wet dream is sinful. Being told to never explore your own body etc
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I’m relieved (no pun intended). But there is no teaching that condemns sex in its marital context. There is no teaching that condemns experiencing sexual attraction, even desire. There is no teaching that attaches any wrongdoing to a wet dream, nor examining one’s body.

My goodness Lileli, what happened to you when you were growing up? Who put these notions into your head?
 
lileli said:
There are plenty of scientific studies that shiw that masturbating gas plenty of health benefits and is part of a fulling life. There are plenty of studies demonstratibg that the repression of sexuality has plenty of negative consequences for people, which may include secret addiction to sexual things. Yes, I will agree that if I’m trying to reach high levels of spritiulism then one should curb sexual outlets, but outside of this, there is nothing wrong with being in touch with one’s human side.
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Masturbation is just a bad habit like smoking or drinking too much. People who are smokers think they can never quit, but once they do, they lose the urge. It’s the same with masturbation. Once you get out of the habit you lose the urge to do it. Truly.🙂
 
Rau said:
I’m relieved (no pun intended). But there is no teaching that condemns sex in its marital context. There is no teaching that condemns experiencing sexual attraction, even desire. There is no teaching that attaches any wrongdoing to a wet dream, nor examining one’s body.

My goodness Lileli, what happened to you when you were growing up? Who put these notions into your head?
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The Catholic Church happened! Ha! But that’s not all bad, like I’ve said,the church brought to God so it’s positive as well.
 
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