Maternal Age as a serious reason to avoid pregnancy

  • Thread starter Thread starter PaulinVA
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Most people with scruples on this thread don’t tend to have them with this issue. Usually it is something like "I killed a bug on the way to Mass, should I confess it.

Does that make you this aggressive on animal stewardship threads?:rolleyes:
What?!?
Did you miss my posts earlier where I mentioned the burden on my heart over this issue, where I said I felt backed into a corner by some posts of yours and others? That is a textbook example of someone struggling with scruples based on opinions in this thread.
I like your posts, generally speaking, and I like that your family and my family have a lot in common. But let’s be honest here, please.
 
If you liked me in this thread, you’ll love me in threads about: Addiction, pornography, emotional and psychological abuse and the “men’s rights” movement.

Bonus: If you read threads about the first three, you’ll get to find out what a completely horrible person I was for a number of years. Fun!
I’ve seen you on other threads.
 
What?!?
Did you miss my posts earlier where I mentioned the burden on my heart over this issue, where I said I felt backed into a corner by some posts of yours and others? That is a textbook example of someone struggling with scruples based on opinions in this thread.
I like your posts, generally speaking, and I like that your family and my family have a lot in common. But let’s be honest here, please.
I didn’t want to be the one to mention that previous post, but since you have… yeah that’s pretty much my point. And no, I’m not white-knighting here either.
 
What?!?
Did you miss my posts earlier where I mentioned the burden on my heart over this issue, where I said I felt backed into a corner by some posts of yours and others? That is a textbook example of someone struggling with scruples based on opinions in this thread.
I like your posts, generally speaking, and I like that your family and my family have a lot in common. But let’s be honest here, please.
I’m confused.🤷
 
Well, that went bad fast.

I am not able to express myself here. I apologize. I have no idea what just happened.

Bowing out for a time.
 
NFP oversold?

In real life I know of 3 people who practice NFP. MY OB, my chaste/ single NFP teacher who charts for health reasons and me.

I need to drive 20 miles out of my way to go to the NFP only doctor. In my entire diocese I believe he’s the only one.

At each of my births the hospital staff would ask me at check in if the doctor would be performing a tubal, so they could have me sign the release for it.

Every magazine that I purchase has an ad for a contraceptive method, with a cute couple and 2 cute kids. And I mean magazines that have to do with cooking or home keeping, not Cosmo.

When I ask a mom, oh what nice twins! Are they identical? “No, they were IVF.”

When I thought I found a Catholic OB and I had a question for her about NFP, she answered, “Ah NFP. I pray the Church will change. I would use condoms if I were you.”

In my personal opinion NFP has been undersold. Many Catholic people are completely ignorant that a reliable method, acceptable by the Church is available for when the serious reasons come up.
 
But, even despite all those challenges to such a conversation, lay people are pretty much the ONLY people who are discussing this. We are not hearing about this in our parishes or dioceses very much, unless it is word of mouth from another lay person. And the threads on it here at CAF, of course!😛
Yep. There aren’t even any adverts for classes in NFP in my parish at all. And we got like 5 mins of info on it during our pre marriage course. TBH, it’s no wonder that so many Catholics never even consider NFP. 😦 Luckily I had been using FAM for a few yrs before I became a practicing Catholic.
Why slash down one another over something like this when you could be praying for others who are murdering the unborn, committing grave ills in order to twist nature to their wills to conceive a child and discarding the unwanted, not feeding the poor, not caring for the sick, not visiting the imprisoned, not clothing the naked?
I also wonder this. Why are ppl judging others usage of NFP when a) the vast majority of Catholics use ABC, b) many of them use abortificant contraceptives and c) there are babies being murdered/aborted every single day. I feel these are much more pressing concerns than the size of our neighbour’s family.
 
Well, that went bad fast.

I am not able to express myself here. I apologize. I have no idea what just happened.

Bowing out for a time.
Wait, why? Just because some people disagree with you and some (including myself) have been impacted by what you have said does not mean that you must withdraw from the thread. I do hope you are merely busy with the kids instead. God bless!
 
I also wonder this. Why are ppl judging others usage of NFP when a) the vast majority of Catholics use ABC, b) many of them use abortificant contraceptives and c) there are babies being murdered/aborted every single day. I feel these are much more pressing concerns than the size of our neighbour’s family.
Well look, this thread was created to “ask the crowd” as it were, so I don’t blame the crowd for responding with its opinion. But the truth of the matter is that the crowd’s opinion doesn’t matter. At all. By the way, since I joined in I’m part of the crowd too… and my opinion about whether advanced maternal age is a serious reason to avoid is completely and totally irrelevant. That’s why I have not proffered my position.

My “serious reason” may not be your “serious reason” and guess what… in this case it’s not moral relativism and nonsensical permissiveness! Hooray!
 
HoosierDaddy said:

“It is completely normal and Holy for someone to get married and have children who starve or are persecuted in Iraq. And it is apparently normal and Holy to avoid bringing forth life because you wish to pay for private school for your kids.”

I’m not seeing the problem.

In both cases, the parents are free to make choices regarding family planning, taking in account their unique circumstances. For all we know, there’s a Christian Iraqi couple that’s wondering whether or not to not have more children in order to pay for private school, in order to avoid Islamic indoctrination. That would strike me as being a very defensible plan.

Regarding homeschooling: I am not criticizing homeschoolers, but I feel that the large family/homeschooling/attachment parenting package has been overhyped. I also feel that certain optional lifestyle stuff has somehow acquired the weight of magisterial teaching and I do feel like pushing back against that. I remember a poster some time ago here who did a homebirth, and she was obviously convinced that it was somehow a super Catholic thing to do (???).

The Bucket said:

“I’m a strong believer in that these kinds of threads can seriously burden people’s consciences and quite unnecessarily so.”

Yes!

MaryGail36 said:

“Every magazine that I purchase has an ad for a contraceptive method, with a cute couple and 2 cute kids. And I mean magazines that have to do with cooking or home keeping, not Cosmo.”

I know! It’s the mom-interest magazines that have those.
 
I don’t know?🤷 Like you I struggle with this issue and topic logically. If you put a gun to my head I would say that most “Americans” have a distorted view of the subject. But honestly I do not know. NFP is the single hardest thing I reconcile to my faith. So many threads about topics where people don’t understand why masturbation etc is a sin and we all talk about obey and trust the Church. So that is what I do here. But it is hard. When my american mind reads something a Pope said about “responsible parenthood and education” I get why NFP is practiced morally. But then that same statement seems not to apply to a majority of the World’s Catholics. How can a couple in the US take those words and decide that College is a reason to not have more children or age but an Iraqi couple can have 6 kids and know that half of them may not see their 18th birthday.🤷 That couple is bound by the same Church as I am. Those words were not even spoken in english by the Pope so the argument that it is meant only for Americans or westerners cannot be made. But what I know of faith, what I know of God and his Church do not make me think that the poor should be denied the right to procreate. Not only that but it is in these poor places that the Church is growing. Where more Catholics are being churned out than in our culture of death. So really, which culture is the poorer one? I don’t know. I do know that the moral rules that bind them, bind me. The Command from God to multiply applies to them as much as it does me. Those bishops in poor countries, of which bergoglio was one, marry couples all the time that will not be able to give their children anything close to what we deem and “education” or ability to provide for them. Yet they are married, and promised to accept children. While the UN ships pounds and pounds of condoms to Africa as the answer the Church seems to take a more “life” positive approach. Rejoicing as babies are born with retardations, diseases, and syndromes and marriages are celebrated and at the same time mourning with the mother who lost another baby to extreme poverty or war. This is not a new dilemma. Babies were born in the worst epidemics, persecutions, and times in all of human history. And it is seen as a good thing. A promise of life (God) ultimately winning. Now, we use our technology to calculate what sex of child we want. When and how to embrace life giving the best statistical chance and avoiding any statistical risk.

For our last child we “used”" NFP" to try to choose the gender. It “worked” but how moral is that? We did it because we could, because the technology and statistics can be manipulated to do the very things we condemn. discriminate.

I have no real answer. And I am not meaning to cause anyone strife or doubt about faith. I certainly do not claim to know more than the Church. And the Church says you can use NFP. I used to teach NFP. I cannot anymore because I have been confused by it. I refrain from even giving advice on these threads on NFP issues. My position is not to assert a position but only to ask questions that do not match up to my understanding of faith and logic.
I too get more and more confused but I find these threads helpful. Bookcats posts have been challenging and the most informative for me. We are all on a journey here and I do not claim to know the answers more than anyone else. But I do know that as I sat in front of the Blessed Sacrament last night with 4 kids running around and praying to God. I thank God for the family I did not plan but thought I could.
This was my response to her post. I have no idea about “scruples” or anything else. Nor do I really think it is relevant. We are discussing a theological issue. We are employing morality and history and logic. We are all seeking questions and causing doubts in either our own theology or the theology of others. If not we would not be here just to hear ourselves type. We are striving to learn and to discover. If someone is offended at something I said then sorry. But we are all adults, if one should not be participating in a theological discussion because of scruples then the onus is not on me to protect them.

I did not take her post and an admission of a mental or spiritual disorder, just a person who said I am confused by things I am reading. Same as I did with bookcat. I was confused and appreciative of the POV that was being presented in a logical manner in the context of a conversation.

Honestly I feel like we just hit bizzaro world. What happened!?

Things are out of hand when feelings get hurt. To ANY poster who’s feelings I have hurt I apologize. I have absolutely no intention of doing so. I consider the poster in question to be a CAF buddy and I took her post to mean that the conversation we were having was leading to questioning and new thoughts and feelings. I feel it should. I may have just missed the entire problem all together.
That being said. Logically I do not apologize for any position or question I had. Not only that but I think the illogical position is held by some others.
But emotion trumps all.🤷
 
HoosierDaddy said:

“It is completely normal and Holy for someone to get married and have children who starve or are persecuted in Iraq. And it is apparently normal and Holy to avoid bringing forth life because you wish to pay for private school for your kids.”

I’m not seeing the problem.

In both cases, the parents are free to make choices regarding family planning, taking in account their unique circumstances. For all we know, there’s a Christian Iraqi couple that’s wondering whether or not to not have more children in order to pay for private school, in order to avoid Islamic indoctrination. That would strike me as being a very defensible plan.

Regarding homeschooling: I am not criticizing homeschoolers, but I feel that the large family/homeschooling/attachment parenting package has been overhyped. I also feel that certain optional lifestyle stuff has somehow acquired the weight of magisterial teaching and I do feel like pushing back against that. I remember a poster some time ago here who did a homebirth, and she was obviously convinced that it was somehow a super Catholic thing to do (???).

The Bucket said:

“I’m a strong believer in that these kinds of threads can seriously burden people’s consciences and quite unnecessarily so.”

Yes!

MaryGail36 said:

“Every magazine that I purchase has an ad for a contraceptive method, with a cute couple and 2 cute kids. And I mean magazines that have to do with cooking or home keeping, not Cosmo.”

I know! It’s the mom-interest magazines that have those.
If everyone just gets defensive (including me.) This conversation is over.

I apologize for accusing people of using emotion or justification. If there are things you feel you need to defend (like your view on homeschooling families) and their “overhype”:rolleyes: Which originally you did not qualify. ok. If that was a thing better left untyped, then you could just say that.
 
Wait, why? Just because some people disagree with you and some (including myself) have been impacted by what you have said does not mean that you must withdraw from the thread. I do hope you are merely busy with the kids instead. God bless!
No momamaree. I apologize. I don’t know what else to say. Can we just move on and continue the conversation.

The kids are busy blowing bubbles in the street. (responsible parenting) perhaps I should not have had my 4th…😉
 
My “serious reason” may not be your “serious reason” and guess what… in this case it’s not moral relativism and nonsensical permissiveness! Hooray!
Did you read the parts of this thread that discussed this?

We are talking about choices. And we are talking about circumstances. How can one couple have serious reason to avoid in America based on welfare money or private school education, but another in africa does not have serious reasons to avoid with starvation and war?
There. Is. No. Other. Moral. Issue. Like. this.

And the NFP theology is new. People are still figuring it out.

All of that against the backdrop of materialism, and the culture of death.

If that is not the most fertile ground for realativism I don’t know what is?🤷
 
Did you read the parts of this thread that discussed this?

We are talking about choices. And we are talking about circumstances. How can one couple have serious reason to avoid in America based on welfare money or private school education, but another in africa does not have serious reasons to avoid with starvation and war?
There. Is. No. Other. Moral. Issue. Like. this.

And the NFP theology is new. People are still figuring it out.

All of that against the backdrop of materialism, and the culture of death.

If that is not the most fertile ground for realativism I don’t know what is?🤷
The decisions about number of children are not largely decisions about morality. Relativism is called for. Personal assessment is called for. The church teaching says as much.
 
No momamaree. I apologize. I don’t know what else to say. Can we just move on and continue the conversation.

The kids are busy blowing bubbles in the street. (responsible parenting) perhaps I should not have had my 4th…😉
Hoosier Daddy,
You have no need to apologize. You did not hurt my feelings. I am struggling with this issue, because I am a new convert and because I am working to deprogram myself from the lies and heresies I was conditioned to believe as a young person, by family, by church, by peers, by society. I do not have a spiritual or mental disorder. Scruples is NOT the same as someone having diagnosed OCD/Scrupulosity. Scruples can be something a person struggles with during periods of conversion/reversion, or during other times of crisis. Some people always have a more tender conscience. My husband is rather implaccable, whereas I have the tender conscience.
I was not accusing you of offending me, so while I appreciate your apology because you said it out of kindness, I cannot accept it. Instead I just want to continue in goodwill with you and others. I carefully consider everything people say (except those that are obviously trolling) and weigh it against what I already know. So sometimes I struggle with scruples, as I mentioned, not in so many words, in post 248. It doesn’t concern me. I struggle, I wrestle, and ultimately I feel that wrestling with these issues and participating in debates and discussions make me a better person. I asked for honesty, because it is important to be honest, but not as a means to accuse.
 
Wow, I left work and by the time I got home there were a lot more posts. There are a lot to respond to, but I don’t know where to start.

This is a subject that is very close to a lot of posters here. We have all made life decisions that we are trying to defend, even if only subconsciously.

I am done with NFP. Finally, after 25 years, we are no longer fertile. We have used NFP to concieve and to avoid. I think we are a success story. We have four children, three healthy and just great kids and one in heaven who had a dignified life from conception to natural death. I do not have regrets about my family size or generosity or decisions like to have another child instead of sending the kids to Catholic school.

I hope everyone here prays for guidance, seeks counsel such as you will find here, and makes their decisions through the years with confidence. You are all great people who are seeking the Truth, and that is good.
 
Mary Gail 36 said:

“In real life I know of 3 people who practice NFP. MY OB, my chaste/ single NFP teacher who charts for health reasons and me.”

Oh, yes.

I probably know rather a number of people who do NFP, but I don’t know that for a fact, because in real life, I cherish privacy. I am pretty sure about one other family, but we’ve never talked about it.

In real life, there’s certainly no NFP mob where I live.

HoosierDaddy,

I think people have a tendency to bundle things that shouldn’t be bundled, but should be kept more compartmentalized. For instance, people bundle their politics and religion as if they were a cable/internet package. Likewise, it’s taken me a while to deprogram from the old CCL newsletters and realize that attachment parenting was not, in fact, in the Catechism. Likewise with homeschool. You might homeschool because you’ve analyzed the situation and figured out that it’s the very best thing for your family at the current time, but we shouldn’t start out a priori believing that homeschooling is the best solution for every family under all possible circumstances.

HoosierDaddy said:

“…but another in africa does not have serious reasons to avoid with starvation and war?”

Well, maybe the couple in Africa does have serious reasons to avoid during war and starvation. Fortunately, Africa isn’t all war and starvation all the time.

Rau said:

“The decisions about number of children are not largely decisions about morality.”

Exactly. It’s our friend, Mr. Prudential Judgment.

If you page down through this Wikipedia article to “Prudential Judgment,” they give the example of war and medical treatment as examples of opportunities to use prudential judgment. Wikipedia says, “In ethics, a “prudential judgment” is one where the circumstances must be weighed to determine the correct action. Generally, it applies to situations where two people could weigh the circumstances differently and ethically come to different conclusions.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudence

PaulinVA said:

“You are all great people who are seeking the Truth, and that is good.”

Awwww. Group hug!
 
HoosierDaddy,

With regard to your concerns about the uniqueness of the fuzziness of NFP use, my husband just shared this with me from here:

newadvent.org/summa/3031.htm#article3

This is an article from the Summa, where Thomas Aquinas is discussing the question of how to prioritize doing good things for persons who have different relationships with us (“Whether we ought to do good to those rather who are more closely united to us?”).

In Article 3, Reply to Objection 1, we have this:

“For it must be understood that, other things being equal, one ought to succor those rather who are most closely connected with us. And if of two, one be more closely connected, and the other in greater want, it is not possible to decide, by any general rule, which of them we ought to help rather than the other, since there are various degrees of want as well as of connection: and the matter requires the judgment of a prudent man.”

From Article 3, Reply to Objection 3

“…a man may have another’s goods, whether in money or in kind, either because he has stolen them, or because he has received them on loan or in deposit or in some other way. In this case a man ought to pay what he owes, rather than benefit his connections out of it, unless perchance the case be so urgent that it would be lawful for him to take another’s property in order to relieve the one who is in need. Yet, again, this would not apply if the creditor were in equal distress: in which case, however, the claims on either side would have to be weighed with regard to such other conditions as a prudent man would take into consideration, because, on account of the different particular cases, as the Philosopher states (Ethic. ix, 2), it is impossible to lay down a general rule.”

There are actually two more very similar statements about the need for prudential judgment in such cases in that article. And this is Aquinas–he would have LOVED to give an exact answer.

Hence, there is nothing unique about the need for prudential judgment with regard to family planning.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top