Maternal Age as a serious reason to avoid pregnancy

[MomaMary8]

I was thinking that if you are close to family, you might have a little extra help, and that could factor into your decision to have “one more”.

Oh! I didn’t look at it that way. I never had family around to help with any of my babies, so that didn’t spring to mind. In fact, I probably had more kids because we have no family around!

 

[Bookcat]

So long as you have a serious reason to avoid, you can avoid. And what constitutes as serious is for each individual couple, along with God, to determine. There is no “list of valid and invalid reasons.”

Some counsel from a priest is an option a couple may or may not decide to take in their decision making process, but it is not mandatory.

1. The family contributes to the social good in an eminent fashion through responsible motherhood and fatherhood, the spouses’ special participation in God’s work of creation[519]. The weight of this responsibility must not be used as a justification for being selfishly closed but must guide the decisions of the spouses in a generous acceptance of life. “In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised both in the duly pondered and generous decision to have a large family, and in the decision, made for serious reasons and in respect of the moral law, to avoid for a time or even indeterminately a new birth”[520]. The motivations that should guide the couple in exercising responsible motherhood and fatherhood originate in the full recognition of their duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society in a proper hierarchy of values.
2. The judgment concerning the interval of time between births, and that regarding the number of children, belongs to the spouses alone. This is one of their inalienable rights, to be exercised before God with due consideration of their obligations towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society[528]. The intervention of public authorities within the limits of their competence to provide information and enact suitable measures in the area of demographics must be made in a way that fully respects the persons and the freedom of the couple. Such intervention may never become a substitute for their decisions[529].

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

THIS is what I don’t like at all. You’re talking to me like this is what I was suggesting. What you are talking about above would not be serious reason, but it would certainly not be a JUST reason, either. I don’t like that you are assuming that I would condone such just because I used the word just instead of the word serious.

I did not think you would think so!

I merely borrowed that from my former posts above (easier than typing alot)

 

[Rau]

THIS is what I don’t like at all. You’re talking to me like this is what I was suggesting. What you are talking about above would not be serious reason, but it would certainly not be a JUST reason, either. I don’t like that you are assuming that I would condone such just because I used the word just instead of the word serious.

His statement implies nothing about your intent. You have inferred that without any basis. He is being expansive to try and be clear for all readers.

 

[Bookcat]

So long as you have a serious reason to avoid, you can avoid. And what constitutes as serious is for each individual couple, along with God, to determine. There is no “list of valid and invalid reasons.”

Some counsel from a priest is an option a couple may or may not decide to take in their decision making process, but it is not mandatory.

1. The family contributes to the social good in an eminent fashion through responsible motherhood and fatherhood, the spouses’ special participation in God’s work of creation[519]. The weight of this responsibility must not be used as a justification for being selfishly closed but must guide the decisions of the spouses in a generous acceptance of life. “In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised both in the duly pondered and generous decision to have a large family, and in the decision, made for serious reasons and in respect of the moral law, to avoid for a time or even indeterminately a new birth”[520]. The motivations that should guide the couple in exercising responsible motherhood and fatherhood originate in the full recognition of their duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society in a proper hierarchy of values.

234.** The judgment concerning the interval of time between births, and that regarding the number of children, belongs to the spouses alone**. This is one of their inalienable rights, to be exercised before God with due consideration of their obligations towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society[528]. The intervention of public authorities within the limits of their competence to provide information and enact suitable measures in the area of demographics must be made in a way that fully respects the persons and the freedom of the couple. Such intervention may never become a substitute for their decisions[529].

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

 

[patsa]

1. The family contributes to the social good in an eminent fashion through responsible motherhood and fatherhood, the spouses’ special participation in God’s work of creation[519]. The weight of this responsibility must not be used as a justification for being selfishly closed but must guide the decisions of the spouses in a generous acceptance of life. “In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised both in the duly pondered and generous decision to have a large family, and in the decision, made for serious reasons and in respect of the moral law, to avoid for a time or even indeterminately a new birth”[520]. The motivations that should guide the couple in exercising responsible motherhood and fatherhood originate in the full recognition of their duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society in a proper hierarchy of values.

234.** The judgment concerning the interval of time between births, and that regarding the number of children, belongs to the spouses alone**. This is one of their inalienable rights, to be exercised before God with due consideration of their obligations towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society[528]. The intervention of public authorities within the limits of their competence to provide information and enact suitable measures in the area of demographics must be made in a way that fully respects the persons and the freedom of the couple. Such intervention may never become a substitute for their decisions[529].

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

What’s the problem now?

 

[Bookcat]

What’s the problem now?

I was agreeing what I quoted from your post…

By giving the text from the Church…

 

[patsa]

I was agreeing what I quoted from your post…

By giving the text from the Church…

Ah ok.

I was reading that and being like “how does any of what he posted contradict what I said?” lol

 

[gardenswithkids]

Originally Posted by gardenswithkids View Post
[People say] that older parents or parents of larger families are to be blamed if their (our) children have problems, and the children are to be blamed if the parents have problems. “If only what’s her name hadn’t had that fifth child that pushed her over the edge”, sounds to me like a version of “blame the victim”. And I don’t think it’s particularly helpful.

Mommamaree–Since this thread is so long, it might be better if we started another thread, but I’ll address it.

If you are “weird” for having these type of intrusive thoughts in your head–or if you are, then you certainly aren’t alone. It is just these types of fears that may often prompt older women to avoid pregnancy. Society in general seems to want to convince women who already have children that we should stop having babies long before menopause.

One of the things that protected me somewhat from that societal conditioning is that my own mother was in her forties when I was born. I grew up hearing people make comments about the “dangers” older mothers having children with serious defects (usually told almost as if it was a sure thing), and I was able to refute them by simply commenting about my mom’s age when she had me. It usually shocked people because 1) my mom was old and 2) I was not only normal but also reasonably bright and attractive, (oh, and also despite being from a Catholic family with an older mom, I didn’t come from a large family.)

But anyway, that helped me but still I worried a bit, just as I did with every pregnancy. After having had a couple miscarriages, the fears were higher that something would go wrong. Experiencing miscarriages can bring a different perspective to pregnancy as I feared another loss. That’s a different topic, but it somewhat relates. I played the “if only I hadn’t” game with my miscarriages, wondering what I did wrong. And one of my children has some mild learning issues, so I sometimes play the “what did I do wrong” game there too. The answer is probably nothing, and it reminds me of the question the apostles asked Jesus about the man born blind, “Whose sin was it-his or his parents–that caused him to be blind?”

I think that “mommy guilt” is a fairly common thing. Can we blame Freud for that since he was the one who liked to blame mothers? I think “mommy guilt” is often caused by our own egos because we think we are or should be “super-mom”. Then we’re faced with the reality that we’re really not as “super” as we’d like to think. Humility is a good thing. It’s when we’re flat on our back (or more likely on our left sides if we’re pregnant and on bed rest) that we may quite our lives down enough that God may have a chance to work. My oldest learned to cook while I was on bed rest with one pregnancy–I never would have otherwise let him near the stove! Graciously accepting help from other people is sometimes far harder than graciously giving help. You know how the St. Francis prayer says that it is in giving the we receive, well, sometimes also it is in receiving that we give. That’s another lesson that I learned from my mommy, much later after I’d reached adulthood my mom was seriously ill and still somehow she was still able to give as she graciously accepted help and united her suffering with Christ.

I want to write more, but I’m out of time. I haven’t addressed all your questions–and I think they are great questions!

 

[Xantippe]

MomaMary8 said:

“I’m confused as to how this plays into the maternal age question. Do you mean we should “factor in” possible grandparenting duties and so limit our family size in size so we may be more available to babysit our grandchildren?”

Let’s say “could,” rather than “should.” I think that’s been a major confusion in this thread–mentioning that something could be a serious reason not to have a baby is not at all the same as saying that it’s immoral to have the baby.

There was an article posted earlier in this thread about how selfish people were for wanting to finish up having children so they could RETIRE and take cruises and do selfish old people things, and I think that’s really unfair.

I think grandparently duties do need to be mentioned in this context, because being an involved grandparent is one of the things that many 40-somethings are actually looking forward to (I’m actually very keen on it already). If one avoids having a baby at 48 so one can be more available to a 24-year-old daughter that is having a baby, isn’t that a serious reason? Is it fair to call that motive selfish? In my personal circle, I have known so much good come of grandmas’ availability to pitch in and lend a helping hand–my grandma (who threw nearly all the birthday parties I ever got), my husband’s grandmas (one came all the way from Eastern Europe to help out for a couple of years when a baby sister was born), my sister’s MIL who crisscrosses the Atlantic to help out for months at a time, the mom of premature twins I mentioned whose mom is spending half a year visiting from another continent, etc. There is so much good that mobile, energetic, involved grandmas do that they wouldn’t be able to do if they still had kids at home that they were responsible for. If I am 50 and have a 4-year-old at home of my own, I can’t really drop everything to help a young married daughter three states away who is on bedrest for a difficult pregnancy.

There’s also the issue of increasingly frail parents, which is a very similar issue, but one which I’m less familiar with the details of. But the math is, if one is in one’s 40s, one’s parents are going to be elderly, and perhaps quite elderly and increasingly in need of help. If they live far away and we have small children at home, it’s going to be a difficult logistical problem to ensure that they are appropriately cared for.

 

[mommamaree]

Oh! I didn’t look at it that way. I never had family around to help with any of my babies, so that didn’t spring to mind. In fact, I probably had more kids because we have no family around!

Me, too! Ha ha. I am far more aware of the growing and larger size of my family when I see my in-laws struggling to mentally process and keep up with a number of kids already twice the number they raised.

 

[maryjk]

Let’s say “could,” rather than “should.” I think that’s been a major confusion in this thread–mentioning that something could be a serious reason not to have a baby is not at all the same as saying that it’s immoral to have the baby.

That is a very good point.

What is a serious reason for me, may not be for someone else. And if someone has that reason that I considered serious, it doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t have a child.

There was an article posted earlier in this thread about how selfish people were for wanting to finish up having children so they could RETIRE and take cruises and do selfish old people things, and I think that’s really unfair.

(snip for length)

There’s also the issue of increasingly frail parents, which is a very similar issue, but one which I’m less familiar with the details of. But the math is, if one is in one’s 40s, one’s parents are going to be elderly, and perhaps quite elderly and increasingly in need of help. If they live far away and we have small children at home, it’s going to be a difficult logistical problem to ensure that they are appropriately cared for.

Even if they live close by, it can be difficult. As someone who had her parents live with her in their last days, having a small child at the same time would have made what I did, impossible.

I knew, many years ago, that my parents would need help and care in their final years.

 

[Xantippe]

Catching up here.

PaulinVA said:

“I was thinking that if you are close to family, you might have a little extra help, and that could factor into your decision to have “one more”.”

Yes. I was also thinking about my kids’ generation. They will be able to marry earlier and start families earlier and have larger families if they know that they don’t have to do it 100% alone. Also, if daughters are interested in pursuing a career outside the home, a willing grandma is very helpful. (I have one daughter who is a) not interested in having a family b) very gifted in a variety of areas that are unusual for a girl and if she ever decides to have a family, I would like her not to have to choose between doing that and her gifts. If she wants to stay home with her hypothetical children, that’s fine, but I don’t want her to feel she has to choose between having the family she wants and developing her talents.)

I had a friend who had bedrest for much of her pregnancy. Her mom (who lived at least a day or two drive away but herself had had a history of difficult/ill-fated pregnancies) was able to drop everything and just move into her basement and take care of everything around the house until things were safe. I know so many stories like that.

In my own family, I had one local and highly-involved grandma, my husband had two, and our kids have nobody within 2,000 miles. Their grandparents are practically strangers to them. I don’t think the kids miss it (because it’s something they’ve never had), but I know what they don’t have, and I would like to do my best to avoid repeating the pattern in the next generation.

 

[MomaMary8]

MomaMary8 said:

“I’m confused as to how this plays into the maternal age question. Do you mean we should “factor in” possible grandparenting duties and so limit our family size in size so we may be more available to babysit our grandchildren?”

Let’s say “could,” rather than “should.” I think that’s been a major confusion in this thread–mentioning that something could be a serious reason not to have a baby is not at all the same as saying that it’s immoral to have the baby.

There was an article posted earlier in this thread about how selfish people were for wanting to finish up having children so they could RETIRE and take cruises and do selfish old people things, and I think that’s really unfair.

I think grandparently duties do need to be mentioned in this context, because being an involved grandparent is one of the things that many 40-somethings are actually looking forward to (I’m actually very keen on it already). If one avoids having a baby at 48 so one can be more available to a 24-year-old daughter that is having a baby, isn’t that a serious reason? Is it fair to call that motive selfish? In my personal circle, I have known so much good come of grandmas’ availability to pitch in and lend a helping hand–my grandma (who threw nearly all the birthday parties I ever got), my husband’s grandmas (one came all the way from Eastern Europe to help out for a couple of years when a baby sister was born), my sister’s MIL who crisscrosses the Atlantic to help out for months at a time, the mom of premature twins I mentioned whose mom is spending half a year visiting from another continent, etc. There is so much good that mobile, energetic, involved grandmas do that they wouldn’t be able to do if they still had kids at home that they were responsible for.

There’s also the issue of increasingly frail parents, which is a very similar issue, but one which I’m less familiar with the details of. But the math is, if one is in one’s 40s, one’s parents are going to be elderly, and perhaps quite elderly and increasingly in need of help. If they live far away and we have small children at home, it’s going to be a difficult logistical problem to ensure that they are appropriately cared for.

Take your 4 year old with you?? Seems to be simple enough to me. I homeschool and can travel with my younger kids at anytime I don’t think that is a very big worry frankly. What if your 24 yr old and 28 yr old have babies 2 days apart and live on opposite sides of the country?? What if you have breast cancer treatments and can’t take off to visit your pregnant daughter? What if? What if? What if?

My grandmother (who only had nine) said that worry is a sign of a lack of faith. I agree with that simple statement. I does not mean I do not use my intelligence to make prudent and wise decisions, but I do avoid the unnecessary worries that are just simply borrowing trouble.

As far as elderly parents, I see many grown adults struggling to care for their parents. The ones that seem to have the easier time of it are those that have many siblings to share the load. I’m hoping not to burden my children in my old age, but hopefully they will support each other if they have to care for me or my husband.

I also do not want to bank on the idea that I will be a grandmother. I have 2 that are actively beginning a celibate vocation life and one that is discerning. The joke used to be that I could have 100 grandchildren if they each had 10 kids, now I’m beginning to wonder if I’ll even have one!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The age of my mother has never entered into my decision to have sex with my wife.

 

[MomaMary8]

The age of my mother has never entered into my decision to have sex with my wife.

 

[maryjk]

The age of my mother has never entered into my decision to have sex with my wife.

What you seem to be saying is that anyone that feels that taking care of a parent, or two, is more than they can handle and that adding a pregnancy or baby to the mix would be way too much, is worthy of an eye roll.

I am betting that you haven’t had to take care of an elderly or dying parent. It is all consuming. And deciding to abstain for a while comes naturally due to exhaustion.

 

[Xantippe]

MomaMary8 said:

“I homeschool and can travel with my younger kids at anytime”

But not the bigger kids, right?

Also, travelling is expensive and it gets more expensive the more people are going. That’s one of the issues I was thinking about. If I were travelling to my family, there’d be a plane ticket for each person travelling (I got my driver’s license in my early 30s, and am only a drive-to-the-grocery store and across town type driver). It would be a two hour drive to the airport, a four hour flight (more in case of connections) and then a four-hour drive to my hometown. Then, when I got there, I’d find that if I were travelling with a child between about 10 months old and three, the kids would have a lot of trouble sleeping in a strange bed. Bringing little kids and having them wake up repeatedly wailing in the middle of the night would be a heck of a way to “help” my afflicted family member. If I had that kind of “help” arrive for me, I think I’d send them home early.

“What if your 24 yr old and 28 yr old have babies 2 days apart and live on opposite sides of the country?? What if you have breast cancer treatments and can’t take off to visit your pregnant daughter?”

Do what you can do, obviously.

As I’ve mentioned, my mom had breast cancer at 41 and that’s just a little over 2 years from now for me. Cancer therapy is, as I’ve mentioned earlier, not great for unborn babies.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What you seem to be saying is that anyone that feels that taking care of a parent, or two, is more than they can handle and that adding a pregnancy or baby to the mix would be way too much, is worthy of an eye roll.

I am betting that you haven’t had to take care of an elderly or dying parent. It is all consuming. And deciding to abstain for a while comes naturally due to exhaustion.

You are reading a lot into a comment meant as lighter fare.

I can see you took it personally.

I have watched a parent die. I pray that my children live long enough to watch their mom and I die. It is the cycle of life. We also have had to care for my wife’s mom and have her live with us during a serious illness. Again, none of these things even weighed on our decision to copulate. But perhaps we probably did more of that because of the stress, and emotion involved. We may have needed that closeness and that unification to continue through the tough times. So it might have had a bearing.
But just age? Just sheer math? no way.
perhaps it just was a little too close for you. I apologize.

My main point is we are bordering on the ridiculous when we start pondering all sorts of reasons to abstain. Then this becomes about personal experience and not theology.

One thing about taking care of an elderly person is that yes, it is time consuming but it also can be a wonderful thing FOR your children to see. Future children even. In fact, it is quite Catholic to teach about not only the dignity of human life, suffering, sacrifice, honoring the parents, and the obvious cycle of life that a child may be able to experience better first hand. Teaching these very noble causes is a Holy thing, and I don’t personally consider teaching Holy things to be a reason to avoid. Some others may, and some may not be able to care for a child while caring for an adult. What a sad situation for the dying person if they felt they not only were burdensome but also that potential life was being stopped because of them.

That being said. One can only do what one can. And I certainly do not begrudge anyone the need to postpone because of a dire situation. However, just mere age of the grandparent would never enter into my decision making with regards to vaginal intercourse with my wife.

Not only that but in times past people did not live as long. Grandparents died much earlier. And people often lived as larger family groups with no health care. So there should be LESS reason in the times we live in to have this factor in.

My dad died at 45. My mom ski’s and plays tennis and bikes and does all sorts of stuff. None of those things either my dad dying or my mom’s apparent immortality entered into our decision making.

This idea of grandparents as a reason to avoid intrigues me. We moved from our grandparents. Did we damage our children? Had we known that it was a possibility to move away should number 3 or 4 not have been discerned?
Would my child rather exist with me at 80 percent or not exist because I could not give 100 percent? Who knows.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Another reason that NFP seems to draw more of these debates is that it can be practiced “conservatively” or “fast and loose” So there is a built in ambiguousness to it’s employment.

If you set aside the moral issues of contraception and just look at how it is employed there is not such a variance. Most people do not put a condom on at the END of the act to be more fast and loose with it. Or perhaps receive the shot in their big toe rather than the thigh or backside. But with NFP you can employ rules to narrow or widen the effectiveness. This lends itself to people perhaps using it without really having “serious” reasons. Like I have said before, when NFP is used in unquestionable circumstances you never have people questioning it, you never seem to have men complaining that they are like sex camels. You never have days or rules being pushed.

If a reason rises to life and death issues, the ambiguous part of NFP disappears. This tells me that while everyone defends their reasons and positions they vary, and the legitimacy varies.