Maternal Age as a serious reason to avoid pregnancy

[PaulinVA]

Well of course we have to understand that sin did exist. Because I was forgiven for it. I was counseled on it and I was in communication about it with a priest familiar with NFP and the situation.
… See, NFP is not a single moment. You know that if you practice it. It is not a single decision to not do something at an exact moment. It is an ongoing process…

Uh when a priests asks you in the confessional what your reasons for avoiding are and you reply “deductibles” it is quite evident you are sinning selfishly.

But, you have to answer the question of when the sin occurred. If you think that’s a mortal sin, then you can’t present yourself for Communion. At what point are you sinning? Is it when you decide to try to avoid this month? Is it on a fertile night and you don’t have relations? Are you incurring multiple mortal sins, one on each fertile night?

I’ve never really given this thought - what is the sin and when does it occur? It sure seems like the Church is trying to obligate us to have relations on certain days. Or, if there are not just reasons we are not supposed to know the fertile days. Neither of those options make sense to me.

So, to be on topic, if a couple says that the woman is 35 and it is impudent to have children after 35, if they avoid until menopause can that decision be objectively evaluated? Is the decision sinful? Is not having fertile_time relations the sin?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well, I don’t even think it needs to be addressed. A gun can be used in a sinful way too but I don’t feel the need to go around telling everyone I have not killed with mine every time somebody says killing is wrong. But every time someone says NFP…and what follows is not rainbows and butterflies everyone gets all in a tizzy about their own use of NFP and justifying how many children they have. I dont care how many children you have. And I don’t think a single person on here should have another child unless they wish.

If I say NFP can be used sinfully and I have the confession to prove it, then someone else can say “We never use it sinfully” Great! Good for you! I never said you did!

But when people start saying, “No NFP cannot be abused.” Then I have to wonder what their view of sin and NFP really is.

 

[Rau]

Sure we could. money does not make up for sin. If I rob banks but donate a lot of it to cancer research I still have sin. a billionaire could donate 20 percent and time and only want to kids in a sinful way.

Not saying that anyone is doing that but just that your logic is off about sin.

A couple cannot get married and intend to never have children if they give X amount of money and time to the Church.

Agreed, regarding the nil children case. But if some arbitrary family with 2 kids decides “we’d like to stick with 2 kids”, what exactly is the sin that they MIGHT be committing (absent just reasons to avoid) should they then seek to limit their lovemaking to infertile periods. By what name is the sin known?

 

[Rau]

But when people start saying, “No NFP cannot be abused.” Then I have to wonder what their view of sin and NFP really is.

I think most of us are searching for understanding, and on a subject made a bit more difficult by the absence of an objective standard. I don’t see all the defensiveness and denials you seem to.

 

[Cathmomof6]

Agreed, regarding the nil children case. But if some arbitrary family with 2 kids decides “we’d like to stick with 2 kids”, what exactly is the sin that they MIGHT be committing (absent just reasons to avoid) should they then seek to limit their lovemaking to infertile periods. By what name is the sin known?

Selfishness, possibly?? I know I struggle with that one!!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But, you have to answer the question of when the sin occurred. If you think that’s a mortal sin, then you can’t present yourself for Communion. At what point are you sinning? Is it when you decide to try to avoid this month? Is it on a fertile night and you don’t have relations? Are you incurring multiple mortal sins, one on each fertile night?

I’ve never really given this thought - what is the sin and when does it occur? It sure seems like the Church is trying to obligate us to have relations on certain days. Or, if there are not just reasons we are not supposed to know the fertile days. Neither of those options make sense to me.

So, to be on topic, if a couple says that the woman is 35 and it is impudent to have children after 35, if they avoid until menopause can that decision be objectively evaluated? Is the decision sinful? Is not having fertile_time relations the sin?

I’ve never really given this thought - what is the sin and when does it occur? It sure seems like the Church is trying to obligate us to have relations on certain days. Or, if there are not just reasons we are not supposed to know the fertile days. Neither of those options make sense to me.

I have never been one who thought this. THe Church does not require us to copulate on certain days. I think the sin can come in the reasons for deciding NOT to copulate on certain days. I did not wake up this morning and go, “gee, I am or am not going to have sex with my wife today” I just let the day progress. (though I have a plan) The action or inaction of sex itself is not sinful, but the reasons can be.
As for “When” the sin occurs. Well, that is another issue. BUt perhaps it is like the sin of being angry with your brother. You can have unjust reasons to be angry with your brother, if this is the case you should not present for communion. The sin occurred with the thoughts, with the feelings and with the actual anger. It is not “one point in time” but can extend over days, months or years… There are also “just” reasons for anger,
IF every time your brother sees you he steps on your right foot and laughs and does not apologize, then your anger would not rise to the level of sinfulness, go ahead and jump right in that communion line!

So, to be on topic, if a couple says that the woman is 35 and it is impudent to have children after 35, if they avoid until menopause can that decision be objectively evaluated? Is the decision sinful? Is not having fertile_time relations the sin?

I read this over and over. I have a couple of questions. Who says that it is “imprudent” to have children over 35 for the couple in question. THe CHurch? NO! society? Maybe. A Trusted Doctor?

It doesn’t matter. It is the couple themselves who must decide if the reasons are just. could sex over 35 ((yikes) that is 4 years YOUNGER than me and 3 years until my wife hits it and we are talking like it is granny sex or something!!!)

It is the couple who will be assessed by God. And if their reasons are just and unselfish and they should not have children then by all means employ the tool the CHurch has given you!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think most of us are searching for understanding, and on a subject made a bit more difficult by the absence of an objective standard. I don’t see all the defensiveness and denials you seem to.

It is possible that I am projecting and reading into things. It has happened before. It will happen again.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Agreed, regarding the nil children case. But if some arbitrary family with 2 kids decides “we’d like to stick with 2 kids”, what exactly is the sin that they MIGHT be committing (absent just reasons to avoid) should they then seek to limit their lovemaking to infertile periods. By what name is the sin known?

So 2 is the magic number where it no longer is possible to be selfish?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Does make you wonder what advice is given to women about to marry, approaching 50, and not yet reached menopause. Wait a few years?

Imagine the outrage if the Church did that!
Old women who finally found the “one” would freak out that the Church was saying they were too old and detests their fertility. Dogs and cats living together! Mass Hysteria!

In my experience “advice” given to engaged couples even in the Church is almost always found wanting and is usually not theologically backed up.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Whether one has ever heard of NFP, or ever had a lesson, is not the key point however. To some degree, women and their partners, have some knowledge of their fertility at a given point in time. Any decision to avoid in light of that knowledge is just the same as using NFP.

NFP is more than knowing that your nigerian wife gets a little moody around the same time every month. Information is not bad. Manipulating information to serve selfish motives can be.

 

[PaulinVA]

As for “When” the sin occurs. Well, that is another issue. But perhaps it is like the sin of being angry with your brother. You can have unjust reasons to be angry with your brother, if this is the case you should not present for communion. The sin occurred with the thoughts, with the feelings and with the actual anger. It is not “one point in time” but can extend over days, months or years… There are also “just” reasons for anger.

All true. but, when I rob a bank, the act of robbing is the sin, isn’t it? If I think for months about it, is the thinking about robbery sinful? No. the act of taking the money is sinful.

I read this over and over. I have a couple of questions. Who says that it is “imprudent” to have children over 35 for the couple in question. THe Church? NO! society? Maybe. A Trusted Doctor?

The couple looks at the stats and decides they don’t want to risk it. Others would. Maybe objectively there isn’t really a problem having children past 35. Are they wrong?

It doesn’t matter. It is the couple themselves who must decide if the reasons are just. could sex over 35 ((yikes) that is 4 years YOUNGER than me and 3 years until my wife hits it and we are talking like it is granny sex or something!!!)

I am considerably older, and leave my granny out of this. . Maternal age does become an issue. BUT, just reasons seem so fluid. Relative, almost.

It is the couple who will be assessed by God. And if their reasons are just and unselfish and they should not have children then by all means employ the tool the Church has given you!

I promise not to take us down the culpability road, but if a couple truly makes a prayerful, heartfelt, decision, then

I don’t know. I realize you can have a “sinful attitude” about things. cough cough other drivers cough cough cough, but now my understanding of that is in question. Acts are sinful. Are ideas, are attitudes?

 

[Rau]

Selfishness, possibly?? I know I struggle with that one!!

Well yes, I think so, that was the answer I expected to solicit. But if the couple would rather apply their surplus talents (after caring for their own children) generously in the service of others, rather than adding to their own brood, I cannot see that they are selfish. If managing a household larger than 2 children is not their cup of tea, but they have the generosity of heart to serve in other ways, I cannot fault their decision.

I think we risk focussing on the wrong thing by drawing attention to the “NFP” as the tool through which one might sin. It’s only through a lack of generosity of the heart that one can be selfish, and family size does not tell the full story.

 

[Rau]

So 2 is the magic number where it no longer is possible to be selfish?

Of course not, and not said or implied.

 

[Xantippe]

To be more anecdotal about the OP, in my experience, it’s been financially and socially fantastic to have a baby in my later 30s (my kids are 11, 9 and 18 months). We’re financially on solid ground and I bought a somewhat ridiculous stroller to celebrate the pregnancy (we had just the one $2,000 car and I bought a $400 jogger–silly, but so much fun!). The big kids are in school during the day and adore their baby sister and give me parenting tips. They take a lot of the load off of me of entertaining her on car trips and other times. (We spare them the less enjoyable tasks.) My middle child is impatiently waiting for the baby to start talking more. Also, we finally have a house of our own, and we finally know a lot of people and I have a number of chums with kids the same age as my kids. It was so much fun to have pregnancy buddies for the first time in my life–two good friends had babies that same year. And my sister is even having a baby this year!

In contrast, when I had my first two at 27 and 29, we were living in an expensive area that we couldn’t really afford (but I hadn’t figured that out yet) and I barely knew anybody else with kids. We had initially envisioned having 4-6 kids, like our Catholic peer group, and I’d envisioned my oldest daughter being my right hand girl. Well, that didn’t happen, especially not when she was 2 and 3. It was all I could do to keep her from finishing off baby brother. I’m glad we did it, but we had a number of tough years (6, to be exact). And one grandpa was very unsympathetic and kept saying stuff like, “Women with 5 kids do just fine. Why is Xantippe having so much trouble?” He had never had 2 under 4, ever, but I digress. And as I discovered some years later, my oldest was mildly autistic. As it happened, my oldest (and second child) eventually grew into the helpers I had envisioned, but it took way longer than I thought–namely the better part of a decade.

The other aspect of this is physical and medical, which has definitely been way worse for me as a later 30-something. I had a miscarriage with my 3rd pregnancy at 36, and was just so surprised. I theoretically understood that it was a possibility, but at 13 weeks? How was this even possible? My 4th pregnancy was a sort of tour of pregnancy unpleasantness: 1 trimester nausea and heartburn (totally normal), 2nd trimester bleeding, subchorionic hematoma (never even heard of them before) with a 30% chance of losing the baby, short bedrest, rest of 2nd trimester on physical restrictions, 3rd trimester gestational diabetes (4 sticks a day and a diet that was effective but had me losing weight between doctor’s appointments) and sciatica. I spent the last 6 months living like a queen bee doing almost nothing but eating and gestating. Everybody did just fine, but I have to ask myself–is doing this again really such a good idea? If I got pregnant again and anything like that happened (and the internet tells me gestational diabetes has a fairly high rate of recurrence), we’d have to hire a nanny for me and the toddler, which is ridiculous.

So, to summarize, my experience has been that socially and financially, older parenthood is FUN!, but the medical and health side were terrible. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

All true. but, when I rob a bank, the act of robbing is the sin, isn’t it? If I think for months about it, is the thinking about robbery sinful? No. the act of taking the money is sinful.

The couple looks at the stats and decides they don’t want to risk it. Others would. Maybe objectively there isn’t really a problem having children past 35. Are they wrong?

I am considerably older, and leave my granny out of this. . Maternal age does become an issue. BUT, just reasons seem so fluid. Relative, almost.

I promise not to take us down the culpability road, but if a couple truly makes a prayerful, heartfelt, decision, then

I don’t know. I realize you can have a “sinful attitude” about things. cough cough other drivers cough cough cough, but now my understanding of that is in question. Acts are sinful. Are ideas, are attitudes?

All true. but, when I rob a bank, the act of robbing is the sin, isn’t it? If I think for months about it, is the thinking about robbery sinful? No. the act of taking the money is sinful.

Legally you are making the distinction between premeditation and acting on the spot. If an unguarded safe is right in front of me in the bank and I take the money because of the opportunity I have sinned. But (lets move it to murder) if I plan to murder my brother that is anger and a sin. So is murdering him on the spot. In the commandments these sins are also covered in the “coveting” aspects. jealousy is a sin but not one that is perhaps committed at a certain point in time.
Not only that but going out farther from the ten commandments we have even stricter words from Jesus about adultery. Sure shtooping your neighbor is a sin in the very action of doing it, but Jesus specifically addresses your question when he says looking at her (planning) is a sin.

The couple looks at the stats and decides they don’t want to risk it. Others would. Maybe objectively there isn’t really a problem having children past 35. Are they wrong?

They could be wrong, they could not be wrong. That is what is frustrating about it.

I am considerably older, and leave my granny out of this. . Maternal age does become an issue. BUT, just reasons seem so fluid. Relative, almost.

This is exactly my struggle with this theologically. And like I have said before it is what makes it different than other theological questions. But I have to trust the Church. Where else should I go?

I don’t know. I realize you can have a “sinful attitude” about things. cough cough other drivers cough cough cough, but now my understanding of that is in question. Acts are sinful. Are ideas, are attitudes?

Of course. Hatred, Racism, lust, anger, coveting. Not only are they sinful they are rarely backed by overt actions. Just thoughts, just lingering thoughts, about mrs johnsons short skirt today, or how I would love to tell off my boss that jerk, or how african americans are subhuman. Sinful, all of them.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

To be more anecdotal about the OP, in my experience, it’s been financially and socially fantastic to have a baby in my later 30s (my kids are 11, 9 and 18 months). We’re financially on solid ground and I bought a somewhat ridiculous stroller to celebrate the pregnancy (we had just the one $2,000 car and I bought a $400 jogger–silly, but so much fun!). The big kids are in school during the day and adore their baby sister and give me parenting tips. They take a lot of the load off of me of entertaining her on car trips and other times. (We spare them the less enjoyable tasks.) My middle child is impatiently waiting for the baby to start talking more. Also, we finally have a house of our own, and we finally know a lot of people and I have a number of chums with kids the same age as my kids. It was so much fun to have pregnancy buddies for the first time in my life–two good friends had babies that same year. And my sister is even having a baby this year!

In contrast, when I had my first two at 27 and 29, we were living in an expensive area that we couldn’t really afford (but I hadn’t figured that out yet) and I barely knew anybody else with kids. We had initially envisioned having 4-6 kids, like our Catholic peer group, and I’d envisioned my oldest daughter being my right hand girl. Well, that didn’t happen, especially not when she was 2 and 3. It was all I could do to keep her from finishing off baby brother. I’m glad we did it, but we had a number of tough years (6, to be exact). And one grandpa was very unsympathetic and kept saying stuff like, “Women with 5 kids do just fine. Why is Xantippe having so much trouble?” He had never had 2 under 4, ever, but I digress. And as I discovered some years later, my oldest was mildly autistic. As it happened, my oldest (and second child) eventually grew into the helpers I had envisioned, but it took way longer than I thought–namely the better part of a decade.

The other aspect of this is physical and medical, which has definitely been way worse for me as a later 30-something. I had a miscarriage with my 3rd pregnancy at 36, and was just so surprised. I theoretically understood that it was a possibility, but at 13 weeks? How was this even possible? My 4th pregnancy was a sort of tour of pregnancy unpleasantness: 1 trimester nausea and heartburn (totally normal), 2nd trimester bleeding, subchorionic hematoma (never even heard of them before) with a 30% chance of losing the baby, short bedrest, rest of 2nd trimester on physical restrictions, 3rd trimester gestational diabetes (4 sticks a day and a diet that was effective but had me losing weight between doctor’s appointments) and sciatica. I spent the last 6 months living like a queen bee doing almost nothing but eating and gestating. Everybody did just fine, but I have to ask myself–is doing this again really such a good idea? If I got pregnant again and anything like that happened (and the internet tells me gestational diabetes has a fairly high rate of recurrence), we’d have to hire a nanny for me and the toddler, which is ridiculous.

So, to summarize, my experience has been that socially and financially, older parenthood is FUN!, but the medical and health side were terrible. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

Thank you for that insight. Your life sounds awesome! Even in the “worst of times”

 

[Xantippe]

Another nice thing about being an older mother is that I understand how long things take. When my oldest two were little, I had no idea how long the time horizons were for particular stages, so it seemed to take FOREVER. With my current toddler, I know that if all goes well, within six months she’ll be totally different–verbal, lots of pretend play, dressing up, having favorite cartoon characters, etc. If she’s a reasonably average child (and I think she is), it’s just a matter of time.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well yes, I think so, that was the answer I expected to solicit. But if the couple would rather apply their surplus talents (after caring for their own children) generously in the service of others, rather than adding to their own brood, I cannot see that they are selfish. If managing a household larger than 2 children is not their cup of tea, but they have the generosity of heart to serve in other ways, I cannot fault their decision.

I think we risk focussing on the wrong thing by drawing attention to the “NFP” as the tool through which one might sin. It’s only through a lack of generosity of the heart that one can be selfish, and family size does not tell the full story.

I don’t know. A condom in and of itself is not sinful. It is a piece of latex rolled up. It does nothing and can be used to make balloon animals if you wish. Or you can use it as a tool to sin with. Same with NFP. NFP is information and the employment of that information can be used to do good or bad. It is our wills that control it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Kids are still sleeping in. Can you tell? My posts are a little less frazzled today.

 

[Rau]

I don’t know. A condom in and of itself is not sinful. It is a piece of latex rolled up. It does nothing and can be used to make balloon animals if you wish. Or you can use it as a tool to sin with. Same with NFP. NFP is information and the employment of that information can be used to do good or bad. It is our wills that control it.

I understand “I don’t know”, but you mostly lost me after that. The condom in sex is objectively wrong (sex act is not procreative) - I think introducing it in this discussion is a red herring.

The hypothetical couple I described use NFP to avoid children beyond those they have and apply their surplus talents generously in the service of others. I struggle with the idea that they do wrong, for I cannot identify the sin. I don’t believe there is an “NFP” sin separable from one of a selfish lifestyle (which is not the case in the hypothetical).