Maternal Age as a serious reason to avoid pregnancy

  • Thread starter Thread starter PaulinVA
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
(readers note my various posts above - much ought to be considered in such --(and not good motive etc_ – a decision-and such is not recommended…seek out counsel if one is thinking of such -for the marital act is normally part and partial of marriage)

The key for post-menopause: the virtue of temperance.

(it is key of course for all times…but it remains a key then as always)

CCC

Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion"

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

(the other aspects too of course can be there -they couple may judge to say take some short time dedicated to prayer -so long as not a near occasion etc …etc)
Are you suggesting that temperance is of greater significance post-menopause? If it is not, I’m unclear why you raise it?

I would also confess to being totally unclear how to apply temperance in a post-menopausal sex life! I would have anticipated the matter to be naturally self-regulating.
 
I would also confess to being totally unclear how to apply temperance in a post-menopausal sex life! I would have anticipated the matter to be naturally self-regulating.
Don’t you remember Blanch on Golden Girls? That little vixen was insatiable.:eek:
 
Here’s another serious reason, which applies particularly to parents of older children.

In the past, surrounded by a Catholic faith community, a hands-off parenting style could be reasonably successful. However, in the current age, surrounded by a toxic popular culture and a non-Catholic, anti-Catholic and often highly dysfunctional community and often far from or just unsupported by extended family, parents find themselves in a much different position. They can’t in good conscience just turn their older children loose, as the older children are in fact the ones who are most vulnerable to peer pressure and bad examples. It may be very difficult (in fact in some cases impossible) to adequately supervise, mentor and launch older children while at the same time caring adequately for babies, toddlers, and small children.

I think that there are definitely advantages to having a critical mass of family members in dealing with outer pressures, as the family itself can provide counter-weight to peer pressure, but at some point, parents may be so overwhelmed with the needs of younger children that they are not able to cope with their older children.

Just thinking of my own case, I was reasonably close to my mom, right up to the point that she had my baby brother (her third) and we moved into a new house that my parents were in the process of building (I was just turning 9 at the time). Looking back now that I have three kids spaced roughly the same way, I think our relationship really suffered from the fact that my mom was probably overwhelmed and really didn’t have time for me at that point. From then on, our communications were largely taken up by fights over chores and we didn’t have much to say to each other until I had kids of my own a couple decades later. I’m glad my parents had my little brother but his birth (along with the move to a house under construction) had very unfortunate consequences for our relationship. I think she would have continued to be a better mom if she hadn’t been so overwhelmed.
 
I saw this article, reminded me of this thread:
catholicmom.com/2011/03/04/age-and-motherhood-a-non-factor/

I do think that one thing she brings up is very relevant… the fact that this is not something that can be evaluated simply by tangible/Earthly measures:
Catechism:
2371 "Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man’s eternal destiny."160
Humanae Vitae:
From this it follows that they are not free to act as they choose in the service of transmitting life, as if it were wholly up to them to decide what is the right course to follow. On the contrary, they are bound to ensure that what they do corresponds to the will of God the Creator. The very nature of marriage and its use makes His will clear, while the constant teaching of the Church spells it out.
Humanae Vitae:
But to experience the gift of married love while respecting the laws of conception is to acknowledge that one is not the master of the sources of life but rather the minister of the design established by the Creator. Just as man does not have unlimited dominion over his body in general, so also, and with more particular reason, he has no such dominion over his specifically sexual faculties, for these are concerned by their very nature with the generation of life, of which God is the source. “Human life is sacred—all men must recognize that fact,” Our predecessor Pope John XXIII recalled. “From its very inception it reveals the creating hand of God.”
 
Something else interesting:

Babies Born to Moms Over 35 May Have Lower Risk for Congenital Malformations (defects not caused by chromosomal abnormalities)

Even so, let’s take the example of the stat that at 38 years of age the odds of having a baby with Down Syndrome is 1/175. That means out of 175 babies born to women at the age of 38, 174 would not have Down’s Syndrome. Let’s say all those mothers chose to not have babies just in case, that would mean 174 babies/eternal souls that were not born because of the chance of having someone with special needs in the family, even though those babies didn’t even have Down Syndrome. We will only understand the true effects of these decisions in Eternity. Now, let’s say God blessed one’s family with that 1 baby with Down Syndrome out of the 175. Who is to say that child is not going to be a blessing, one that can bring the family closer to God? There is a difference between someone taking a medication that will harm a child, and a woman that is simply older in age, with her natural fertility and allowing God to bless them if He wishes.
 
Older mothers have a high miscarriage rate. I had my last at almost 40. The two babies prior to him were miscarried.

Since then I’ve had to face the fact that any children we conceive would probably not survive. 😦
 
lifeisbeautiful said:

“Who is to say that child is not going to be a blessing, one that can bring the family closer to God?”

Who is to say that a particular family can manage more children without falling apart?

Presumably, the parents of the family have a pretty good idea what they can and can’t handle. And it’s not always Downs Syndrome. Sometimes it’s fatal anomalies. Sometimes it’s chromosomal abnormalities that cause a child to live a couple of short years, full of suffering.

There are routinely tragic stories of parents of autistic children who murder the children and then sometimes themselves because they just can’t cope.

nydailynews.com/news/crime/mother-murders-severely-autistic-son-cops-article-1.1371310

mercurynews.com/ci_20120851/sunnyvale-police-mother-killed-22-year-old-son

globalnews.ca/news/985252/fatality-inquiry-into-murder-suicide-of-father-and-autistic-son-reveals-years-long-struggle/
 
lifeisbeautiful said:

“Who is to say that child is not going to be a blessing, one that can bring the family closer to God?”

Who is to say that a particular family can manage more children without falling apart?

Presumably, the parents of the family have a pretty good idea what they can and can’t handle. And it’s not always Downs Syndrome. Sometimes it’s fatal anomalies. Sometimes it’s chromosomal abnormalities that cause a child to live a couple of short years, full of suffering.

There are routinely tragic stories of parents of autistic children who murder the children and then sometimes themselves because they just can’t cope.

nydailynews.com/news/crime/mother-murders-severely-autistic-son-cops-article-1.1371310

mercurynews.com/ci_20120851/sunnyvale-police-mother-killed-22-year-old-son

globalnews.ca/news/985252/fatality-inquiry-into-murder-suicide-of-father-and-autistic-son-reveals-years-long-struggle/
What is to say a person can have any children at all without killing them?

"Today, roughly two-thirds of all children murdered in the United States under the age of 5 between 1980 and 2008 were killed by a parent, more specifically 33% were killed by their fathers and 30% by their mothers. We cannot know what was behind the deaths of Huntsman’s infants, but research may offer at least broad motivations.
Forensic psychiatrist Phillip J. Resnick, a pioneer in the field of filicide research, published a seminal article in 1969 identifying five major reasons for filicide based on the motive of the perpetrator:
  1. Altruism: The parent kills the child because he or she may perceive it to be in the child’s best interest. It may be reality-based (e.g., the child suffers from a terminal illness) or precede the suicide of the parent, as the parent feels it would be unfair to leave the child behind to face the cruel world.
  2. Acute psychosis: The parent kills the child based on ideas that are inconsistent with reality; for example, the parent believes the child has been possessed by the devil.
  3. Unwanted child: The parent kills the child that he or she regards as a hindrance.
  4. Accidental: The child’s death is an unintentional outcome of parental physical abuse.
  5. Spousal revenge: The parent kills the child in an effort to exact revenge on the other parent." cnn.com/2014/04/16/opinion/west-utah-mother/
Or get married without killing their spouses, for that matter?
Is the problem they should have avoided, or are there other issues at hand? Is it the same for a loving couple that only has age to worry about? A person can avoid children if they have discerned they have serious reasons, but we are talking about whether age is a serious reason when a person lacks any other reason. There is a difference between the fear of having to care for a child with unknown issues/not wanting to give up part of one’s “retirement” and actually knowing one has serious reasons to avoid any other children. When we all die, or 10,000 years from when we die, it won’t matter whether we had a retirement early or later, but it will matter whether we welcomed all the children God wanted for us to welcome.
 
When we all die, or 10,000 years from when we die, it won’t matter whether we had a retirement early or later, but it will matter whether we welcomed all the children God wanted for us to welcome.
Ok, but there is no certain way to know God’s will. For the parent who has 6 kids and would love a few more, I think they feel sure they know it. Not all parents have that perspective of course.
 
lifeisbeautiful,

The autism killings are very unusual, as it is very rare for parents to murder bigger children and young adult children. There is a well-developed pattern of fairly normal parents trying to cope, right up until their severely autistic children get too big to handle, and then killing either just the child, or the child and themselves.

There may be some sort of psychosis going on on the part of the parents, but even a 100% normal parent would struggle with being effective with an adult or teenage child who is not really potty-trained, may be violent, has a tendency to run off, and has to be supervised 24 hours a day (a lot of severely autistic children do not sleep on a normal schedule).

These are very serious cases, and as scientists are finding, paternal age does in fact contribute to autism risks.

nytimes.com/2014/02/27/health/mental-illness-risk-higher-for-children-of-older-parents-study-finds.html?_r=0

In fact, that article states that “Children born to middle-aged men are more likely than their older siblings to develop any of a range of mental difficulties, including bipolar disorder, autism and schizophrenia, according to the most comprehensive study to date of paternal age and offspring mental health.”

“Compared with the children of young fathers aged 20 to 24, those born to the same men age 45 and older had about twice the risk of developing psychosis, the signature symptom of schizophrenia; more than three times the likelihood of receiving a diagnosis of autism; and about 13 times the chance of having a diagnosis of attention deficit disorder. They also tended to struggle more with academics and substance abuse.”

If one already has diagnosed autism in ones family or familial tendencies toward schizophrenia or ADHD (both of which my extended family does), this is all very concerning.

“There is a difference between the fear of having to care for a child with unknown issues/not wanting to give up part of one’s “retirement” and actually knowing one has serious reasons to avoid any other children. When we all die, or 10,000 years from when we die, it won’t matter whether we had a retirement early or later, but it will matter whether we welcomed all the children God wanted for us to welcome.”

One of our relatives started just with ADHD, and through a series of unfortunate choices and events (that was undobutedly fueled by the ADHD), is now permanently brain-damaged (along with other issues) and will probably never be able to make good choices or live completely independently. For the better part of a decade, her parents have been in pretty much continual fear that she will go too far one day. That is a burden of pretty much continual dread.

Who is talking about retirement? And what’s wrong with wanting to spend one’s golden years changing diapers on grandchildren instead of changing diapers on adult children? Is it wrong to want to move on to the next phase in one’s life, and to be able to devote one’s efforts to spending time with the next generation?

I think it is wrong to encourage people to take on duties that 1) are not obligatory and 2) they may not be equal to 3) we are not going to be around to help them with. Also, it’s quite possible that any individual parent might be an adequate mother of two or three, but a terrible mother of six or eight or nine. They might shortchange their kids’ educations (both secular and religious) because they simply do not have the energy or the time. Every material (including human beings) has its breaking point. I mentioned earlier how my relationship with my mother deteriorated once my baby brother was born–I had a great relationship with her right up until then. At that point, our relationship pretty much was reduced to just having HUGE fights over chores. Looking back, I think there were probably a number of issues going on, but we were not helped by the fact that she simply did not have the time or energy to invest. From that day forth for nearly the next two decades, I did not have much of a relationship at all with my mom. That’s a pattern that I am trying to avoid, now that I have kids who are similarly spaced.

I think that having a large family is a vocation, and not everybody is called to that vocation.
 
To be clear, we already have one child who is diagnosed on the autism spectrum, and our extended family has ADHD and schizophrenia.

Rau said:

“Ok, but there is no certain way to know God’s will. For the parent who has 6 kids and would love a few more, I think they feel sure they know it. Not all parents have that perspective of course.”

Yes, I would not discourage anyone who felt called and who was fully aware of the risks involved. (And I think there has been a lot of happy talk here and elsewhere minimizing risks that are in fact pretty dire. If the prospect of death or disability for children isn’t “serious reasons,” I have no idea what “serious reasons” are.)

However, if an older mother of a family is concerned, or isn’t wildly enthusiastic about adding to her family, I would definitely not nudge her in that direction.
 
To be clear, we already have one child who is diagnosed on the autism spectrum, and our extended family has ADHD and schizophrenia.

Rau said:

“Ok, but there is no certain way to know God’s will. For the parent who has 6 kids and would love a few more, I think they feel sure they know it. Not all parents have that perspective of course.”

Yes, I would not discourage anyone who felt called and who was fully aware of the risks involved. (And I think there has been a lot of happy talk here and elsewhere minimizing risks that are in fact pretty dire. If the prospect of death or disability for children isn’t “serious reasons,” I have no idea what “serious reasons” are.)

However, if an older mother of a family is concerned, or isn’t wildly enthusiastic about adding to her family, I would definitely not nudge her in that direction.
Well, as I’ve said, I think that every couple acquires serious reasons before menopause. For some, it’s simply I can’t chance having another child with problems. Yes, we all know we will accept a child with problems, but that is different than seeking out the possibility.

And, I have to comment on “God’s will”. This is also something I’ve said frequently - God created the biology that allows conception and childbirth. He does not pick and choose which child will have defects, which child will have a high IQ. It’s just the biology he created interacting with the fall. He will certainly “let” you use the biology to have too many children. (More than you can objectively handle).
 
Xantippe
Here are a couple of quotes from that article that I think are good to point out:
“This is the best paper I’ve seen on this topic, and it suggests several lines of inquiry into mental illness,” said Dr. Patrick F. Sullivan, a professor of genetics at the University of North Carolina, who was not involved in the research. “But the last thing people should do is read this and say, ‘Oh no, I had a kid at 43, the kid’s doomed.’ The vast majority of kids born to older dads will be just fine.” … “In the population as a whole, children born to older fathers were at higher risk of some disorders, like autism and schizophrenia, but lower risk for others, like attention deficits.” “Experts say the numbers in the study look more alarming than they probably are. For example, Dr. Sullivan said, the overall prevalence of autism is 0.5 percent to 1 percent of the population, depending on the estimate and the location. But for the children of healthy parents in their 20s, the rate is perhaps one in 300, or even lower. A threefold increase would put the odds at about one in 100, still very low. The same goes for the risk of psychosis. The baseline rate is tiny for the children of young, healthy parents, and remains quite low even when doubled.

Going back to the original question, I feel that while there are serious/just reasons that may arise related in some shape or form to age, age in itself is not a reason. We are required to have just reasons to avoid children, it is not asking more of anyone, it is part of God’s plan. If we don’t have reasons to be avoiding/to abstain indefinitely, then we should be open to more. We are called to be prudent and generous, understanding the consequences of our decisions have Eternal repercussions. We don’t need to live in fear, nor trying to control every single aspect of our lives, but we do need to do our best, trust in Him (regardless if we are avoiding or not), and try to go closer to Him (and to bring those around us closer to Him as well). It isn’t about avoiding suffering on Earth, sin has brought all sorts of maladies, physical and spiritual to our world. We have to embrace whatever crosses we receive, and ask Him to help us, especially when they are too heavy for us. It doesn’t mean we have to have children when we see we need to avoid, but it does mean that we have to put great care in being honest with ourselves in discerning our reasons, to make sure we are looking to do what He wants of us. Not every large family was born out of parents wanting to have large families, some were people simply trying to follow His will and received many blessings. (Likewise there are families of all different sizes, including 0 children, embracing His will for their family).
 
PaulinVA said:

“He will certainly “let” you use the biology to have too many children. (More than you can objectively handle).”

Yes. It makes no more sense to say, “God won’t let you have more kids than you can handle,” than it does to say “God won’t let you write more checks than your balance can cover” or “God won’t let you drink more alcohol than your body can handle.”
 
Yes, I would not discourage anyone who felt called and who was fully aware of the risks involved. (And I think there has been a lot of happy talk here and elsewhere minimizing risks that are in fact pretty dire. If the prospect of death or disability for children isn’t “serious reasons,” I have no idea what “serious reasons” are.)

However, if an older mother of a family is concerned, or isn’t wildly enthusiastic about adding to her family, I would definitely not nudge her in that direction.
Thank you for this post. The direction this thread has gone had become increasingly troublesome for me psychologically. I was starting to feel backed into a corner by the quoting of magisterial documents that seemed to be saying that procreating more children must be considered to be a priority about all others, unless grave circumstances exist. Some of the language which I had previously thought I understood and accepted was starting to sound really rigid, because of the commentary offered here. Whether I misunderstood what people were saying, or whether they are correct and I am wrong and I am just not ready to accept a hard truth, I do not know. But what I do know is that I will not purposefully attempt to have more children just because someone else is telling me I do not have valid reasons to avoid. They are not the ones living my life, and they are not the ones who have to go through my pregnancy and childbirth and raise my children. If I feel too tired, too overwhelmed, too concerned about the possible risk factors, then my concerns are more relevant for my family than the commentary of other Catholics, even if it is based upon the writings of popes. And anyway, I have a feeling that going through seven pregnancies already, if I were to discuss my concerns with my pastor, he would encourage me to follow my instincts. No matter what other people believe about their own personal choices, for myself, I still strongly believe that a woman has a right, at some point, to say, “enough, I am too old and too tired to go through all of this again”, even if she is not experiencing poor health at the time (other than the exhaustion and loss of vitality due to years of pregnancies and nursing). Thankfully, my husband completely agrees with me.
 
Here’s another serious reason, which applies particularly to parents of older children.

In the past, surrounded by a Catholic faith community, a hands-off parenting style could be reasonably successful. However, in the current age, surrounded by a toxic popular culture and a non-Catholic, anti-Catholic and often highly dysfunctional community and often far from or just unsupported by extended family, parents find themselves in a much different position. They can’t in good conscience just turn their older children loose, as the older children are in fact the ones who are most vulnerable to peer pressure and bad examples. It may be very difficult (in fact in some cases impossible) to adequately supervise, mentor and launch older children while at the same time caring adequately for babies, toddlers, and small children.

I think that there are definitely advantages to having a critical mass of family members in dealing with outer pressures, as the family itself can provide counter-weight to peer pressure, but at some point, parents may be so overwhelmed with the needs of younger children that they are not able to cope with their older children.

Just thinking of my own case, I was reasonably close to my mom, right up to the point that she had my baby brother (her third) and we moved into a new house that my parents were in the process of building (I was just turning 9 at the time). Looking back now that I have three kids spaced roughly the same way, I think our relationship really suffered from the fact that my mom was probably overwhelmed and really didn’t have time for me at that point. From then on, our communications were largely taken up by fights over chores and we didn’t have much to say to each other until I had kids of my own a couple decades later. I’m glad my parents had my little brother but his birth (along with the move to a house under construction) had very unfortunate consequences for our relationship. I think she would have continued to be a better mom if she hadn’t been so overwhelmed.
Dear Xantippe, I think the bold part above is the root of your view toward maternal age/large families. Your mother sounds to be a poor example of mothering. (I’m sorry, I do not intend to offend you or your mother.) Don’t blame the birth of your brother for your mother’s poor way to deal with you and her willingness to fight with her child. I would blame building a new house over having a brother. Or better yet, blame sin. God gives us good things, it is up to us to choose how to deal with them.

I also disagree with your description of modern family life and needing to turn their children loose in order to parent. It is just the opposite problem that I encounter with my large family. They are so close I must urge them and coax them to go out with friends and be a part of activities. They do not want to leave the house very often because of the fun they have with each other. I see this in my own family and have heard others expressing the same thoughts.

I am a mother of 10 living kids, and 2 miscarried babies in heaven. I have twice given birth over the age of 40. I will be 60 years old when my youngest heads to college. I will have lived my motherly vocation (hopefully) with God as my center thought and strength to get through the particular struggles and trials of motherhood. My earthly body is but a tool for my soul to reach heaven and I plan on giving this body to God completely used and exhausted! I do not want to save my energy to pamper myself but to use to serve Him and I hope my rest is always at his side.

sorry to enter into your debate, I just felt the need to let Xantippe to know that not all parenting is what she grew up with and also to give witness to being an older mom of a great bunch of kids. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top